Line of sight

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Lord Wilmore

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Re: Line of sight
« Reply #90 on: August 13, 2008, 03:10:24 AM »
It's not really a RE victory, or an FE victory. The experiment proves neither.
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

Re: Line of sight
« Reply #91 on: August 13, 2008, 03:20:49 AM »
It proves that FE'ers come up with bullshit experiments to "prove" the earth is flat.

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Lord Wilmore

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Re: Line of sight
« Reply #92 on: August 13, 2008, 03:22:08 AM »
It proves that FE'ers come up with bullshit experiments to "prove" the earth is flat.

1 FE'er. How many RE'ers come on here and have no idea what they're talking about with respect to GR/SR?
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

Re: Line of sight
« Reply #93 on: August 13, 2008, 03:23:44 AM »
Fair point.

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Lord Wilmore

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Re: Line of sight
« Reply #94 on: August 13, 2008, 03:34:05 AM »
Ok. I'm not disputing the fact, but it just seems like an unfortunate dead end to me, with neither side really gaining anything from it.
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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markjo

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Re: Line of sight
« Reply #95 on: August 13, 2008, 05:48:48 AM »
It's not really a RE victory, or an FE victory. The experiment proves neither.

Doesn't that mean that the Bedford Level experiment is inconclusive as well seeing as Tom's experiment is just a variation on the Bedford Level?
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

Re: Line of sight
« Reply #96 on: August 13, 2008, 06:02:23 AM »
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That's ah - not an explanation. If your theory requires more undetectable buy highly important forces working behind the scenes that a season of 'Lost' - then the onus is upon you to prove those force exist.

Here an experiment we could perform to prove that light bends upwards:

Say we have a powerful laser pointer which can shine a distance of five miles. Two observers are at a lake which is five miles across.

On opposite sides of a five mile long lake one observer sets his laser pointer exactly 6 inches above the surface of the water and the other observer sets a large white poster board on the opposite side of the lake at the water's level. If photons curve upwards then the laser dot on the other side of the lake should appear higher than 6 inches above the surface of the water.
...
Are you kidding me, if the earth was round, then that would happen aswell. So you would prove nothing with that experiment.

Better thing to do is= you make a straight concrete line of 5 miles and then do you test. If the light goes higher then you're correct.

« Last Edit: August 13, 2008, 06:05:30 AM by FELUNATIC »

Re: Line of sight
« Reply #97 on: August 13, 2008, 06:10:48 AM »
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That's ah - not an explanation. If your theory requires more undetectable buy highly important forces working behind the scenes that a season of 'Lost' - then the onus is upon you to prove those force exist.

Here an experiment we could perform to prove that light bends upwards:

Say we have a powerful laser pointer which can shine a distance of five miles. Two observers are at a lake which is five miles across.

On opposite sides of a five mile long lake one observer sets his laser pointer exactly 6 inches above the surface of the water and the other observer sets a large white poster board on the opposite side of the lake at the water's level. If photons curve upwards then the laser dot on the other side of the lake should appear higher than 6 inches above the surface of the water.

Or you could line up flags on a canal, and then view to see if they are lined up.  Oh wait didn't someone do that already.... 

" class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Video proof that the Earth is flat!

Run run, as fast as you can, you can't catch me cos I'm in the lollipop forest and you can't get there!

Re: Line of sight
« Reply #98 on: August 13, 2008, 11:05:31 AM »
It proves that FE'ers come up with bullshit experiments to "prove" the earth is flat.

1 FE'er. How many RE'ers come on here and have no idea what they're talking about with respect to GR/SR?
How many FE'ers come on here and have no idea what thy're talking about with respect to GR/SR?
Only 2 things are infinite the universe and human stupidity, but I am not sure about the former.

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Lord Wilmore

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Re: Line of sight
« Reply #99 on: August 13, 2008, 11:08:19 AM »
It proves that FE'ers come up with bullshit experiments to "prove" the earth is flat.

1 FE'er. How many RE'ers come on here and have no idea what they're talking about with respect to GR/SR?
How many FE'ers come on here and have no idea what thy're talking about with respect to GR/SR?

Very few? Those who talk about it seem to have a much better grasp of it than RE'ers.
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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markjo

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Re: Line of sight
« Reply #100 on: August 13, 2008, 11:11:08 AM »
It proves that FE'ers come up with bullshit experiments to "prove" the earth is flat.

1 FE'er. How many RE'ers come on here and have no idea what they're talking about with respect to GR/SR?
How many FE'ers come on here and have no idea what thy're talking about with respect to GR/SR?

Very few? Those who talk about it seem to have a much better grasp of it than RE'ers.

Or do a better job of B.S.ing their way through a discussion.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Lord Wilmore

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Re: Line of sight
« Reply #101 on: August 13, 2008, 11:15:02 AM »
Or do a better job of B.S.ing their way through a discussion.

markjo, I have a great deal of respect for you, as a polite and intelligent RE'er, but I think you would have to concede that most FE'ers have a better understanding of GR/SR than most RE'ers. This board is practically a testament to that.
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

Re: Line of sight
« Reply #102 on: August 13, 2008, 11:15:39 AM »
It proves that FE'ers come up with bullshit experiments to "prove" the earth is flat.

1 FE'er. How many RE'ers come on here and have no idea what they're talking about with respect to GR/SR?
How many FE'ers come on here and have no idea what thy're talking about with respect to GR/SR?

Very few? Those who talk about it seem to have a much better grasp of it than RE'ers.
those FE'ers are just very good at being vague and making it seem like they know what they are talking about, the point being there are not very many people that have a very firm grasp on GR/SR.
My favorite example is a few years after Einstein came out with SR a reporter asked a indian physicist ( his name was chandhaskar or something like that) that if it was true that only 5 people truly understood SR very well. At first he did not answer and the reported asked him why he had not answered yed to which the physicist replied "I am trying to figure out who the fifth person is"
I am not sure if it true but that is the story and I think it shows how truly difficult relativity is to master
Only 2 things are infinite the universe and human stupidity, but I am not sure about the former.

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Lord Wilmore

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Re: Line of sight
« Reply #103 on: August 13, 2008, 11:18:30 AM »
Most RE'ers display a serious lack of understanding. I have a reasonable grasp of the concepts involved, if not the detailed specifics. Most RE'ers do not, and what is more problematic, they are rarely prepared to admit that they don't.
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

Re: Line of sight
« Reply #104 on: August 13, 2008, 11:22:57 AM »
Most RE'ers display a serious lack of understanding. I have a reasonable grasp of the concepts involved, if not the detailed specifics. Most RE'ers do not, and what is more problematic, they are rarely prepared to admit that they don't.
saying gravity is not a force does not show a understanding, it shows that someone read wiki that is all, so when a RE'er says otherwise they are not always wrong, it is understood in the scientific community that for observations on earth we can look at gravity as a force to simplify the equations, for the same reasons why it is ok to go to the butcher and order a pound/kilogram of meat or to assume that an electric current flows from the positive to the negative terminal.
Only 2 things are infinite the universe and human stupidity, but I am not sure about the former.

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markjo

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Re: Line of sight
« Reply #105 on: August 13, 2008, 11:38:48 AM »
Or do a better job of B.S.ing their way through a discussion.

markjo, I have a great deal of respect for you, as a polite and intelligent RE'er, but I think you would have to concede that most FE'ers have a better understanding of GR/SR than most RE'ers. This board is practically a testament to that.

Thank you, Neeman.  However, I think that you are comparing different population samples.  I would contend that many, if not most, of the FE'ers are regulars here.  Some of the FE regulars may have a better grasp on GR/SR or even science in general.  But they have also been here for a while and have more time to study the argument from both sides, not to mention picking up on a lot of debating and dodging tactics.  Just try and convince me that most FE'ers aren't here just for sport.

Granted, most of the RE'ers are of the "WTF, you can't be serious" variety and deserve to be abused, but I've seen a few sharp RE'ers too.  But some of the FE regulars get so caught up in their blood lust that sometimes the decent RE'ers get caught in the crossfire.   Sadly, I would say that most of the sharp RE'ers are turned off by the flaming and abuse generated by both sides.  It is refreshing to get in on a civil thread before it gets derailed and degenerates into a free for all, but that doesn't happen very often (the BBC invasion is a perfect example).
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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sokarul

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Re: Line of sight
« Reply #106 on: August 13, 2008, 05:31:16 PM »
All these are explained far more simply by a spherical earth. You can 'explain' it only by invoking mysterious forces that leave no other sign than the particular phenomena you need explained, bending light in particular ways, having a mysterious linear acceleration without fuel, placing the sun on a path not explainable by gravity, ignoring what seems to me to be a fairly obvious thought experiment, ignoring the training given to artillery officers, and in general ignoring the simple theory in favor of a universe built by an incompetent deity that uses duct tape to hold the heavens together.

That's ah - not an explanation. If your theory requires more undetectable buy highly important forces working behind the scenes that a season of 'Lost' - then the onus is upon you to prove those force exist.

I don't believe in invisible pink unicorns.

CD

It's all about how you interpret the data.  The only reason why RE looks like the better theory right now is that it has been built in as an assumption with all of our major scientific discoveries for centuries, it is something ingrained in everybody's mind from a very young age (much like religion), and it's assumed by some that so-called "pictures from space" somehow prove that the earth is round.  However, it's impossible for some to ignore the evidence that the earth is flat.  That's what this website is all about: breaking free of the accepted dogma and actually considering something that makes sense for a change.

I don't believe in invisible pink unicorns either.  ::)

RtT

Once again, there is no evidence for a flat earth. 
ANNIHILATOR OF  SHIFTER

It's no slur if it's fact.

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CognitiveDissonance001

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Re: Line of sight
« Reply #107 on: August 13, 2008, 08:04:37 PM »
All these are explained far more simply by a spherical earth. You can 'explain' it only by invoking mysterious forces that leave no other sign than the particular phenomena you need explained, bending light in particular ways, having a mysterious linear acceleration without fuel, placing the sun on a path not explainable by gravity, ignoring what seems to me to be a fairly obvious thought experiment, ignoring the training given to artillery officers, and in general ignoring the simple theory in favor of a universe built by an incompetent deity that uses duct tape to hold the heavens together.

That's ah - not an explanation. If your theory requires more undetectable buy highly important forces working behind the scenes that a season of 'Lost' - then the onus is upon you to prove those force exist.

I don't believe in invisible pink unicorns.

CD

It's all about how you interpret the data.  The only reason why RE looks like the better theory right now is that it has been built in as an assumption with all of our major scientific discoveries for centuries, it is something ingrained in everybody's mind from a very young age (much like religion), and it's assumed by some that so-called "pictures from space" somehow prove that the earth is round.  However, it's impossible for some to ignore the evidence that the earth is flat.  That's what this website is all about: breaking free of the accepted dogma and actually considering something that makes sense for a change.

I don't believe in invisible pink unicorns either.  ::)

RtT

Um - no, it's not.

It's all in the question of whether you accept common scientific principles;
"entities should not be multiplied beyond necessity" - if a number of observations can be explained by the explanation that the earth is subject to the same gravitational forces that have been observed in the universe, thus rounding it into a  (roughly) spherical shape, or alternatively

You explain the same observations by postulating other forces that have no mathematical formulation but by odd result in the same observational data;
Requiring that the sun and moon give out light over a mysterious 'Arc', ignoring the fact that this would *still* requires them to be within the same visual range at all times, even if outside the immediate arc of their 'Beam', thusly ignoring the fact that you can observe each of them rising over the horizon, even in the most 'flat' of the plains states.
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Per the FAQ - "Q: "Please explain sunrises/sunsets. : A: It's a perspective effect.  Really, the sun is just getting farther away; it looks like it disappears because everything gets smaller and eventually disappears as it gets farther away."
Except - no, the sun on the horizon *doesn't* look further away, it looks like it's . . . disappearing below the horizon. Which is interesting and useful since, using a 'Round Earth Theory', one can simply posit that it is in fact . . . . disappearing below the horizon.
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Q: "Why are other celestial bodies round but not the Earth?" A: The Earth is not one of the other planets.  The Earth is special and unlike the other bodies in numerous ways.
"The Earth is Special" is an argument not notable for it's coherence, and without further support violates the  fundamental principle of science that the basic laws of physics are not mutable over time or space.
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Q: "What about satellites? How do they orbit the Earth?" A: Since sustained spaceflight is not possible, satellites can't orbit the Earth.  The signals we supposedly receive from them are either broadcast from towers or any number of possible pseudolites.
Again, this posits a "Special" set of laws for some objects - notably the Sun and the Moon, which quite obviously *are* capable of maintaining a consistent 'orbit-like' frame, albeit with no mathematical model explaining it. Regardless, if the Sun and Moon can maintain the path, why not 'artificial' satellites? Presumably becase Sol and Luna are again . . . 'Special'

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Q: "What about gravity?" A: The Earth is accelerating upwards at 1g (9.8m/s^2) along with every star, sun and moon in the universe. This produces the same effect as gravity.
This requires straight line acceleration which requires energy - fantastical amounts of it in fact. There is no evidence, other than the effects of gravity, for this energy. Also, this theory ignores other constraints of the theory it draws from - notably, if the earth is itself massless, then it cannot 'accelerate' at all - objects without mass are constrained under relativity to move at the speed of light - c, no more, no less. Also, although there is no theoretical method of distinguishing acceleration induced 'gravity' from the gravity generated by a mass, as a practical matter acceleration induced gravity is constant through out the system, whereas mass produced gravity creates a 'gradient' - the weight of items on mountain tops are in fact measurably lighter in weight than the same mass weighed at the base of the mountain.
These all "multiply entities without necessity", as we already have a functional theory of gravity that can be mathematically formulated for simple, non relativistic systems as F=G((m1m2)/(r^2)), or for the greater extremes under Einstein's theory of relativity, both of which can be tested with ease.
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Q: "Why does gravity vary with altitude?" A: The moon and stars have a slight gravitational pull.
Q:  Follow-up to previous question:  How is it that the Earth does not have a gravitational pull, but stars and the moon do? A:  This argument is a non sequitur.  You might as well ask, "How is it that snakes do not have legs, but dogs and cats do?"  Snakes are not dogs or cats.  The Earth is not a star or the moon.  It doesn't follow that each must have exactly the properties of the others, and no more.
Non-sequitor - it does not follow . . .
Except, actually, it does follow and is a valid question, as the bad example actually provides - "How is it that snakes do not have legs, but dogs and cats do?"  Snakes are not dogs or cats - except that is not the answer provided by science. The *correct* answer is that genetics and fossil records indicate that snakes diverged from the main line of lizards approximately 150 million years ago during the cretaceous period - Cats and Dogs, being mammals, are, like other mammals, descended from the main line of lizards, retaining the characteristics of two fore and hind legs. Actually, vestigial remnant of those legs can be found  in snake skeletons.

The fundamental problem is that Non-Sequitor does not apply to questions - it applies to answers, as is obvious by the translation "It does not follow"; a question is first, an answer second. "Snakes are not dogs and cats" is a Non-sequitor, it does not answer the question "How is it that snakes do not have legs, but dogs and cats do?"

The question "How is it that the Earth does not have a gravitational pull, but stars and the moon do?" is a valid question, which the FAQ prefers to ignore rather than attempt to answer - "We Don't Know, yet" is a valid answer to a question in science, "It Just IS" never qualifies.

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Q: Do you have a map?

A: See this one, created by one of our members.  There is also this map attributed to a person named Wilbur Voliva, and another by Heinrich Scherer.
Also, there is Cosmas Indicopleustes' world picture, 6 th century in the Christian Topography.
There is a necessary and measurable distortion when mapping a three dimensional object onto a two dimensional plane, a distortion that navigators, pilots, captains, surveyors and a hundred other professions are forced to account for when dealing with large areas. The long and the short of it is that this distortion would be remarkable by its absence on any two-dimensional map that actually gave exactly correct distances.

By the same token, there would be tremendous distortion involved in mapping a two dimensional surface onto a three dimensional globe, with minor distortion in the north pole become huge (Literally Infinite) Distortion on the south pole. These are not 'subtle' distortions, nor are they distortions that would affect only the distances between continents - the internal structure of the continents would be completely, massively different than the shapes that show on the globes, particularly on South America and Africa - evidence for this would show up in everything from the logs of the slave trade and the West Indies Teas Company, to modern efforts to fight Farc, columbian drug trade, oil exploration, radio traffic, the ways time zones are allocated, fuel efficiency, the permutations are infinite.

One of Tom Clancy's Characters once said "The chance for a secret to be divulged is equal to the square of the number of people that know it." - this wouldn't requires thousands - it would require millions of people to be aware of it, including oddly enough myself.

A 'conspiracy' that involves everyone except the conspiracy theorist to be aware of it isn't a conspiracy - it's psychotic paranoia.

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Q: "What about tides?"

A: The tides exist due to a slight see-saw effect on the earth. As it goes back and forth, the water rushes to the side that is lower. Note, this is a very slight wobble. Remember, these wobbles are created by very minor earthquakes. They keep the tides in check. Notice that large earthquakes result in large tides or "tsunami".
Tides of this sort would propagate in measurably different ways than those known, measurable effects of tides, one of which is always towards the moon, and  one of which is 'released' opposing the moons gravitational influence due to the gravitational gradient of the moons gravity.

Round earth theory accounts for this second tide automatically by it's construction, FET accounts for it in no way whatsoever. Nor does the primary tide show the characteristics of a body 3,000 miles away, which would have completely different characteristics.

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Q: "What about time zones?"

A: The sun is a spotlight which shines light on a concentrated area, so not everywhere on Earth will be lit at once. Times zones exist so that everyone's clock will be at 12:00 around the time the sun is approximately directly overhead.
That doesn't even make sense - for there to be any possibility for that to make sense, you would have to be able to see the sun during the period when you weren't in the spotlight. Think of a spotlight, and think of a spot light turning away from you - you, uh, still see the spot light. It doesn't mystically disappear behind the nearest object, drop below the horizon, or show any other weird characteristics at all. You see it drop below the horizon.

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Q: "How come the travel time by air from South America to New Zealand, via the polar route, is SHORTER than the travel time going North first and then South again?"
A: (Presumed answer: The airline pilots are misled by their GPS, or are deliberately conspiring to make it appear that the flights take different times)
Now -*this* is a nonsequitor, an answer that doesn't follow the question. Piloting from South America to New Zealand has a physically shortest route, regardless of what topology you're using. For a pilot to cut off time from one route to another, they have to actually traverse less distance or take advantage of the rotation of the earth, or both.

This is predicted under the Round Earth model. It is impossible under the flat earth model - indeed, as proposed, *all* routes in these areas are longer and require more time speed and fuel than can be accounted for under a Flat Earth model - yet match exactly with earth as a sphere.

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Q: "When traveling in a straight direction, you will always reach the same point on the globe from where you started. How can this happen if the world is flat?"

A: You need to have evidence for this to be true. Also, define "straight." Remember, the northern point on the compass is, under most circumstances (unless near the centre or deep in the ice wall), pointing toward the centre of the Earth. Therefore, if you follow your compass due east or due west, ending up at the same point you started from, you've just gone around the world in a circle.
As with a number of 'Un-disprovable' things in the FAQ, I almost ignored this one, till I caught the minor detail it completly ignores . . . .

Magnets have two poles - a compass does not 'point' towards the north pole - it aligns itself along the dominant magnetic lines of force that go from the north pole to the south pole of the closest magnet, as can be determined in any grade school science lab.

Umm - Where is the south pole? We had a south pole on the spherical earth, I had it here somewhere, and it disappeared somewhere on the flat earth. It's not on the 'bottom' of the earth - the magnetic lines would be perpendicular to the earths surface then, it's not a some arbitary point near the edge, the  magnetic lines would range all sorts of places.

Umm - you guy's lost the south pole. We need it back.

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Q: How come when I flush my toilet in the northern hemisphere it goes counterclockwise but I have this friend in Australia and when he flushes it goes clockwise?

You're mistaken.  On a round Earth, the Coriolis effect adds at most one (counter)clockwise rotation per day; fewer as you get closer to the equator.  The water in your toilet/sink/bathtub/funnel spins much faster than that (probably at least once per minute, or 1440 times per day) so the additional/lost rotation from the Coriolis effect wouldn't be noticed.
Okay - the Coriolis force as applied to a toilet is a myth, but this 'explanation' completely misapplies the way it works; it has to do with the fact that the higher speed of the equator adds a 'torque' to the weather patterns on a the large scale, that increases the larger the weather pattern is.

So - The Coriolis force as applied to massive hurricanes, weather patterns, et al, is not a myth - on the large scale of ocean current and such, it dominates, and weather patterns, water currents, et al below the equator very consistently and verifiably rotate in the opposing direction to their partners in the northern hemisphere, a fact that is completely inconsistent with a flat topology, yet predicted quite easily from a rotating spherical topology.

Note for the record - on a flat surface there is nothing 'special' about the 'equator' - the line separating the inner and outer half of, say, a record player - rotational velocity will increase as you move from the center to the edge, but there's no actual shifts - it's simply a mathematically predictable effect.

The rotation of a *sphere* will however create a coriolis force, again in a mathematically predictable model, with the equator being the dividing line between the clockwise and counterclockwise forces.

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Q: How do seasons work?

The radius of the sun's orbit around the Earth's axis symmetry varies throughout the year, being smallest when summer is in the northern annulus and largest when it is summer in the southern annulus.

Here are some very good diagrams of seasons on the flat Earth.  The first is by thedigitalnomad:

This has so many scientific impossibilities built into it's assumptions that it's kinda included here for just the humor value.

The Sun is 3,000 miles away, and 32 miles across, and 'orbits' a non-physical axis without the use of either gravity or physical link, of which there is no observable sign, in a variable but predictable pattern that happens to have the exact same effect as if the earth was a rotating sphere. Not close, not slightly off, but the exact Spirograph orbit around this invisible center as to reproduce the effect of the rotation of a slightly tilted sphere.

That's not multiplying entities without necessity - that's a geometric progression of entities without necessity.
With every post to the Flat Earth Forum,
William of Occam kills a kitten.

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CognitiveDissonance001

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Re: Line of sight
« Reply #108 on: August 13, 2008, 08:05:13 PM »
Finally, bringing us all the way back around to the first, silliest unfounded assumption  -
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Government


Q: "Why do the all the world Governments say the Earth is round?"

A: It's a conspiracy

Q: "What about NASA? Don't they have photos to prove that the Earth is round?"

A: NASA is part of the conspiracy too. The photos are faked.

Q: "Why has no-one taken a photo of the Earth that proves it is flat?"

A: The government prevents people from getting close enough to the Ice Wall to take a picture.

Q: "How did NASA create these images with the computer technology available at the time?"

A: Since NASA did not send rockets into space, they instead spent the money on developing advanced computers and imaging software instead

It's silly to make a conspiracy requiring data to be suppressed by a vast international conspiracy of Scientists, Politicians, Ham Radio operators, Ships Navigators, and a cast of thousands . . . to hide information that is in plain sight.  In fact, for this flat earth theory to be valid, the 'round earth conspiracy' would have to be able to do impossible things, launch 'pseudo satellites' on a regular basis, create false images in 1969 that surpass any made in the 40 years since, speed between locations on routes that are shorter than the 'shortest routes' on the flat topology - the "Round Earth Theory" matches up with (Or actively predicts) each and every one of the items listed here, pulled from the site FAQ, the Flat Earth Theory has to add extra dynamics to explain each and every one of them.

(Which would be BTW, perfectly fine, if there were no simpler theory to explain it - Maxwell Planck devised Planck's constant as just such a patch over the discrepancy between a continuous spectrum and one that emitted light in 'packets', a fact that ended up being a fore-runner to Quantum Physics. He didn't understand why it should be that way, but it matched with the experiments and was a workable solution until something better came along - and as it happened that bit of pragmatism set the stage for quantum physics which in turn found out that he had hit the nail on the head.

But that was because the experiments deviated from the simple theory - if the experiments don't deviate from the simple theory, it's silly to make a more complicated theory. )

So gee, who am I gonna believe - you guys or my lyin' eyes? Or, more to the point, you guys, or my lyin' eyes, thousands of pilots, navigators, scientists, astronomers, cosmonauts, politicians, historical data, the laws of physics, the laws of trigonometry, navigators, Erastophenes, Magellan, the East Indian Tea Company, slave ship logs, satellites, shuttle captains, science experiments . . .

Give me a simple experiment that shows a different outcome between a simple spherical rotating planet and a flat earth, then you have a case.
Give me repeatable, objectively measurable outcomes, and you have a case.

But without any experimental results that deviate from the simple rotating sphere theory, there's no need for a more complicated theory. It doesn't matter how many ways you managed to shoehorn in an additional force here or duct tape the heavens together there to prove that you *can* have a flat earth that looks just like a rotating sphere to any given experiment - because what you *want* is a flat earth that in some way does *not* look like a rotating sphere. Once you have that necessity, you can breed entities to your hearts content (Well, to the minimum amount that explains the discrepancy) in the chase to create a *new* simplest theory.

But you have to have a valid, reproducible experiment that has mathematically measurable outcomes that differ between the simple model and the flat earth model. Then you get your license to breed entities, not before.

CD
With every post to the Flat Earth Forum,
William of Occam kills a kitten.

Re: Line of sight
« Reply #109 on: August 14, 2008, 02:19:30 AM »
Those were two of the most rational posts that I have read on this forum.  Good job.

Re: Line of sight
« Reply #110 on: August 14, 2008, 02:26:33 AM »
I concur.

Re: Line of sight
« Reply #111 on: August 14, 2008, 03:01:59 AM »
*applause*

*

markjo

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Re: Line of sight
« Reply #112 on: August 14, 2008, 08:41:59 AM »
Sadly, however, they were in vain.   :(
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

?

CognitiveDissonance001

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Re: Line of sight
« Reply #113 on: August 14, 2008, 02:19:04 PM »
Sadly, however, they were in vain.   :(

Oh I know - in the grand scheme of things I'm kind of enjoying this board for the sake of remembering that there *are* stupid belief systems that don't hurt anybody - it's not like say, intelligent design, where they can't think rationally *and* want to insure no one else can either - <G>.

More like some kid that reads the D&D 'Manual of the Planes' and takes it seriously. Fun to think about and play with, has no more link to reality than trying to create an internally consistent RPG.

Fun though. - CD
With every post to the Flat Earth Forum,
William of Occam kills a kitten.