Electromagnetic Accelerator

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Parsifal

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Re: Electromagnetic Accelerator
« Reply #60 on: August 10, 2008, 02:31:06 AM »
Okay, I tried calculating the strength of the EA a different way and got a result of 1.42*1010 m s-2. This value seems to me too large, although I also think my previous value of 33.4 m s-2 seems too small, so I probably have an error somewhere in my calculations. I'll try to organise my thoughts a bit more before I try to calculate it again. I also suspect it may be dependent on the angle at which it meets the light; that is, it would affect horizontal light most strongly, while not affecting vertical light at all.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

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NTheGreat

• 1019
Re: Electromagnetic Accelerator
« Reply #61 on: August 10, 2008, 06:17:08 AM »
Measuring the EA by simply shining a beam in a straight line and measuring how high it rises isn't really a suitable experiment, given it's difficulty, the fact light attenuates in the atmosphere, and the fact that it requires you to assume that the planet is flat in the first place.

A much simpler experiment would be to bounce a laser beam between two parallel mirrors a few hundred or thousand times, and see if the beam starts to curve upwards.

...Come to think of it, that's how most lasers operate in the first place...

Tom Bishop

• Flat Earth Believer
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Re: Electromagnetic Accelerator
« Reply #62 on: August 10, 2008, 06:31:20 AM »
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A much simpler experiment would be to bounce a laser beam between two parallel mirrors a few hundred or thousand times, and see if the beam starts to curve upwards.

Your experiment wouldn't work because mirrors aren't perfectly reflective. Most mirrors are only about 90% reflective. After a short number of passes the beam would be absorbed into the material.

A number of other problems with this kind of experiment are mentioned here in this thread from physicsforum.com

"If the mirror has imperfections, then only part of the light will be reflected and the other part will be sent away in a random orientation (due to "diffuse reflection" I think it is called) because it will be deflected away by any imperfect surfaces on the glass. This at least would account for the "loss" in intensity after being reflected off the glass multiple times (each time losing a little bit of the incident light due to diffuse reflection)."

---

"Another loss factor is the air between the mirrors. There'll always be scattering and absorbtion/emission losses. Before that takes effect, your beam will be off the edge of one of the mirrors anyway because you have to fire the laser in at an angle to prevent the pointer itself from being in the beam path."

---

"When light hits a metallic surface, the conduction electrons actually ABSORBS the photons, causing a transition from one conduction band to another (there's a whole spiel here that I'm skipping about the transition is actually between two points between two different band separated by a reciprocal lattice vector). But this doesn't last and the conduction electrons will drop back to the original band and re-emit this photon, preserving the transverse momentum but with a 180 phase difference. Classically, the conduction electron gains energy from the oscillating E-field in the photon, and re-radiate this field. But since the electrons have negative charge, the field shift phase by 180 deg.

So if one prefers, the light being reflected is not the same light that was incident onto the mirror.

Now, since the oscillating conduction electrons is in a material with a finite resistivity, it will always lose energy via ohmic heating. This is unavoidable, no matter how smooth the surface is. This is why copper waveguides are lossy.

Now, one can greatly diminish this by using a superconducting surface. Unfortunately, one runs into the same problem. While superconductors have zero DC resistivity, it does not have a zero AC resistivity. Since the E field in light is an oscillating field, it implies that these losses are unavoidable, even under the perfect condition."
« Last Edit: August 10, 2008, 06:44:50 AM by Tom Bishop »

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NTheGreat

• 1019
Re: Electromagnetic Accelerator
« Reply #63 on: August 10, 2008, 08:08:18 AM »
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Your experiment wouldn't work because mirrors aren't perfectly reflective. Most mirrors are only about 90% reflective. After a short number of passes the beam would be absorbed into the material.

A number of other problems with this kind of experiment are mentioned here in this thread from physicsforum.com

...
...

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the [laser pulse, aimed at a 99.99999% reflectivity mirror] could reflect about 693,000 times before it halved in intensity.

The simple solution is to used better mirrors. Even a mirror with a fraction of that reflectivity would be able to reflect several thousand times before it began to reduce significantly in intensity, and a suitably powerful detector could easily detect a laser beam even after it's dropped in intensity by several orders of magnitude. The fairly small size of the experiment means that you could also put it into a vacuum chamber, to reduce the effect of atmospheric attenuation.

Plus there's the fact that most lasers already use the concept of bouncing light between two mirrors.

Tom Bishop

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Re: Electromagnetic Accelerator
« Reply #64 on: August 10, 2008, 08:17:37 AM »
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Plus there's the fact that most lasers already use the concept of bouncing light between two mirrors.

I've never heard of such a thing. Reference?

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The simple solution is to used better mirrors. Even a mirror with a fraction of that reflectivity would be able to reflect several thousand times before it began to reduce significantly in intensity, and a suitably powerful detector could easily detect a laser beam even after it's dropped in intensity by several orders of magnitude. The fairly small size of the experiment means that you could also put it into a vacuum chamber, to reduce the effect of atmospheric attenuation.

Lets use our imaginations for a moment and assume that we did have one of these super mirrors, and that we did this experiment in a perfect vacuum, that the surface of the mirror was perfectly flat, that the mirrors were perfectly parallel, and that all other conditions were absolutely perfect. How do you suppose we solve this problem mentioned in the thread:

"Before that takes effect, your beam will be off the edge of one of the mirrors anyway because you have to fire the laser in at an angle to prevent the pointer itself from being in the beam path"

It's pretty clear that you'll have to shine the laser at an angle to the mirror. How would it be possible to get the beam to become perfectly parallel between the mirrors? Any slight angle and the photons quickly zig zag off of the mirror.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2008, 08:34:47 AM by Tom Bishop »

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NTheGreat

• 1019
Re: Electromagnetic Accelerator
« Reply #65 on: August 10, 2008, 08:45:29 AM »
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I've never heard of such a thing. Reference?

Pulled from the Wikipedia article:

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Light from the medium, produced by spontaneous emission, is reflected by the mirrors back into the medium, where it may be amplified by stimulated emission. The light may reflect from the mirrors and thus pass through the gain medium many hundreds of times before exiting the cavity.

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Lets use our imaginations for a moment and assume that we did have one of these super mirrors, and that we did this experiment in a perfect vacuum, that the surface of the mirror was perfectly flat, that the mirrors were perfectly parallel, and that all other conditions were absolutely perfect. How do you suppose we solve this problem mentioned in the thread:

"Before that takes effect, your beam will be off the edge of one of the mirrors anyway because you have to fire the laser in at an angle to prevent the pointer itself from being in the beam path"

It's pretty clear that you'll have to shine the laser at an angle to the mirror. How would it be possible to get the beam to become perfectly parallel between the mirrors? Any slight angle and the photons quickly zig zag off of the mirror.

Carefully align the mirrors and laser so you get enough zig-zags? Use a semi-silvered mirror to let in light? Use more than 2 mirrors to allow more reflections?

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ghazwozza

• 942
Re: Electromagnetic Accelerator
« Reply #66 on: August 10, 2008, 09:15:44 AM »
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Plus there's the fact that most lasers already use the concept of bouncing light between two mirrors.

I've never heard of such a thing. Reference?

I agree with NTheGreat. My Dad is a laser physicist, I understand most of the concepts from him.

However, I mentioned this to him and he says it would be possible to build a laser. You would angle the end mirrors so that the light followed a banana-shaped curve. In fact, this is sometimes done when there is a temperature gradient in the rod causing the light to refract in curved path.

In fact, this theory very well approximates RE physics. It's very similar to making a co-ordinate transform from polar to cartesian, where spheres would become flat planes and straight lines would become cosec curves, which are approximated by parabolas. Thus, there wuld only be a detectable difference over huge distances.

sokarul

• 19303
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Re: Electromagnetic Accelerator
« Reply #67 on: August 10, 2008, 10:45:38 AM »

Sure it is.  Just because you are too stupid to understand it does not make it any less of an answer.
SPACE DOES NOT STOP AT THE ATMOSPHERE.

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And the point of this was what?
To further my argument that space does not stop at the atmosphere.

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That is quite ironic from some one that does not know the difference between 'two', 'too', and 'to'.
I know the difference, especially with "two".  Feel free to go search again and post up all the times I used them wrong.

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cleaver.

toungh?

Typos and not checking my spelling has what to do with anything?
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divito the truthist

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Re: Electromagnetic Accelerator
« Reply #68 on: August 10, 2008, 10:55:39 AM »
To further my argument that space does not stop at the atmosphere.

The empty vacuum of space does.
Our existentialist, relativist, nihilist, determinist, fascist, eugenicist moderator hath returned.
Quote from: Fortuna
objectively good

sokarul

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Re: Electromagnetic Accelerator
« Reply #69 on: August 10, 2008, 11:00:32 AM »
To further my argument that space does not stop at the atmosphere.

The empty vacuum of space does.
Yes the vacuum ends.  Space itself does not.
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sokarul

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Re: Electromagnetic Accelerator
« Reply #70 on: August 10, 2008, 11:13:30 AM »
Okay, I tried calculating the strength of the EA a different way and got a result of 1.42*1010 m s-2. This value seems to me too large, although I also think my previous value of 33.4 m s-2 seems too small, so I probably have an error somewhere in my calculations. I'll try to organise my thoughts a bit more before I try to calculate it again. I also suspect it may be dependent on the angle at which it meets the light; that is, it would affect horizontal light most strongly, while not affecting vertical light at all.
Take your time.  Its hard to make up such a large theory.
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Tom Bishop

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Re: Electromagnetic Accelerator
« Reply #71 on: August 10, 2008, 04:10:05 PM »
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Pulled from the Wikipedia article:

Light from the medium, produced by spontaneous emission, is reflected by the mirrors back into the medium, where it may be amplified by stimulated emission. The light may reflect from the mirrors and thus pass through the gain medium many hundreds of times before exiting the cavity.

Yes, but you need the photons to pass between the mirrors many millions of times in your experiment to see a noticeable result. Hundreds of times won't cut it.

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Carefully align the mirrors and laser so you get enough zig-zags? Use a semi-silvered mirror to let in light? Use more than 2 mirrors to allow more reflections?

There is no configuration you could place the mirrors in to "get enough zig-zags."

A semi-silvered mirror is much less than 90% reflective.

And more than two mirrors won't really help you as the photons would still be hitting one of the two parallel mirrors at an angle no matter what kind of setup you have.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2008, 04:13:17 PM by Tom Bishop »

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NTheGreat

• 1019
Re: Electromagnetic Accelerator
« Reply #72 on: August 10, 2008, 04:31:11 PM »
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Yes, but you need the photons to pass between the mirrors many millions of times in your experiment to see a noticeable result. Hundreds of times won't cut it.

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There is no configuration you could place the mirrors in to "get enough zig-zags."

A semi-silvered mirror is much less than 90% reflective.

And more than two mirrors won't really help you as the photons would still be hitting one of the two parallel mirrors at an angle no matter what kind of setup you have.

I'm not sure why you seem to think that a huge number of reflections are required. The force required to simulate sunset and sunrise in the FE model is immense, and should be detectable over fairly short distances, especially considering the sensitivity of the equipment we have these days.

Tom Bishop

• Flat Earth Believer
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Re: Electromagnetic Accelerator
« Reply #73 on: August 10, 2008, 06:23:09 PM »
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I'm not sure why you seem to think that a huge number of reflections are required. The force required to simulate sunset and sunrise in the FE model is immense, and should be detectable over fairly short distances, especially considering the sensitivity of the equipment we have these days.

There are a great many problems with a precision experiment to prove that photons travel in perfectly straight lines.

How do you plan on getting these mirrors perfectly parallel anyway? By a laser?

Or maybe you could use some kind of solid iron leveling tool. But how did the manufacturer make sure that the surface of that tool was perfectly straight? Did they use lasers?

What if this hypothetical experiment is made and the photons bounce off the mirrors in a few hundred goes like they do in the experiment in the Wiki article you referenced? Does that prove that laser beams don't travel in straight lines?
« Last Edit: August 10, 2008, 06:28:35 PM by Tom Bishop »

sokarul

• 19303
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Re: Electromagnetic Accelerator
« Reply #74 on: August 10, 2008, 07:31:43 PM »
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I'm not sure why you seem to think that a huge number of reflections are required. The force required to simulate sunset and sunrise in the FE model is immense, and should be detectable over fairly short distances, especially considering the sensitivity of the equipment we have these days.

There are a great many problems with a precision experiment to prove that photons travel in perfectly straight lines.

How do you plan on getting these mirrors perfectly parallel anyway? By a laser?

Or maybe you could use some kind of solid iron leveling tool. But how did the manufacturer make sure that the surface of that tool was perfectly straight? Did they use lasers?

What if this hypothetical experiment is made and the photons bounce off the mirrors in a few hundred goes like they do in the experiment in the Wiki article you referenced? Does that prove that laser beams don't travel in straight lines?

Michelson–Morley had no trouble getting mirrors parallel in 1887.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2008, 08:54:40 PM by sokarul »
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Tom Bishop

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Re: Electromagnetic Accelerator
« Reply #75 on: August 10, 2008, 08:13:40 PM »
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Michelson–Morley had no trouble getting mirrors parallel in did it in 1887.

The Michelson Morley experiment did not have two parallel mirrors. The photons did not bounce between the mirrors the number of times we'd need in N's hypothetical experiment.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2008, 08:15:47 PM by Tom Bishop »

sokarul

• 19303
• Extra Racist
Re: Electromagnetic Accelerator
« Reply #76 on: August 10, 2008, 09:00:12 PM »
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Michelson–Morley had no trouble getting mirrors parallel in did it in 1887.

The Michelson Morley experiment did not have two parallel mirrors. The photons did not bounce between the mirrors the number of times we'd need in N's hypothetical experiment.

I guess I wasn't paying attention enough.  Yes they weren't parallel but the picture you posted isn't totally correct.  They reflected the light back and forth a few times to get a greater distance.  Also
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In recent times versions of the Michelson–Morley experiment have become commonplace. Lasers and masers amplify light by repeatedly bouncing it back and forth inside a carefully tuned cavity, thereby inducing high-energy atoms in the cavity to give off more light. The result is an effective path length of kilometers

One wouldn't want perfectly parallel mirrors because you couldn't get the light started in it.
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TheEngineer

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Re: Electromagnetic Accelerator
« Reply #77 on: August 10, 2008, 09:06:12 PM »
SPACE DOES NOT STOP AT THE ATMOSPHERE.
That's nice.

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To further my argument that space does not stop at the atmosphere.
Who are you arguing with?

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I know the difference, especially with "two".  Feel free to go search again and post up all the times I used them wrong.
Perhaps if I get bored...

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Typos and not checking my spelling has what to do with anything?
It has to do with your idiocy.

"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
-- Bob Hudson

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FELUNATIC

• 77
Re: Electromagnetic Accelerator
« Reply #78 on: August 10, 2008, 09:08:18 PM »
I came up with an idea on the new FES, that I thought of posting here because most of the serious discussion seems to happen on here.

Basically, I considered a second UA, one that passes through solid objects (so that we are not shielded from it by the Earth), but that only affects electromagnetic radiation. This "Electromagnetic Accelerator" (EA) would cause significantly greater acceleration than the UA does, such that light accelerates upwards relative to the surface of the Earth. This would explain a couple of phenomena:

Day/night

When the sun is too far away, all its rays are bent upwards in a parabolic arc before they reach us.

Horizon

Light from objects too far away either hits the ground or is bent upwards before it reaches us. This also explains the "sinking ship" effect: the bottom portion of the ship appears to sink into the ocean because all of the light either hits the ocean or is bent upwards, but light from the top portion will be able to go further down before being bent upwards and becoming visible to us, since the ocean is lower relative to it. Also, this allows for an extremely high Greater Ice Wall to keep the atmosphere in, while remaining invisible.

This idea is still fairly fresh in my head, and it is based upon an idea someone else came up with (I don't remember who), stating that light from the sun is bent upwards - though for a different reason, I don't remember the specifics. Undoubtedly this hypothesis will gain more detail as I consider it further, I just thought I might post it here for your consideration too.
Good luck proving that , LOL

sokarul

• 19303
• Extra Racist
Re: Electromagnetic Accelerator
« Reply #79 on: August 10, 2008, 09:12:58 PM »

That's nice.

So thats how you take it when you are wrong, you just shrug it off.

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Who are you arguing with?
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Perhaps if I get bored...
Cool

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It has to do with your idiocy.
Only to you.
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TheEngineer

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Re: Electromagnetic Accelerator
« Reply #80 on: August 10, 2008, 09:39:09 PM »
So thats how you take it when you are wrong, you just shrug it off.
What was I wrong about, exactly?

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Pieced.  Nice.

"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
-- Bob Hudson

sokarul

• 19303
• Extra Racist
Re: Electromagnetic Accelerator
« Reply #81 on: August 10, 2008, 09:42:40 PM »
So thats how you take it when you are wrong, you just shrug it off.
What was I wrong about, exactly?

The atmosphere stops DE.
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TheEngineer

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Re: Electromagnetic Accelerator
« Reply #82 on: August 10, 2008, 09:54:11 PM »
Where did I say it does?

"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
-- Bob Hudson

sokarul

• 19303
• Extra Racist
Re: Electromagnetic Accelerator
« Reply #83 on: August 10, 2008, 09:59:40 PM »
Where did I say it does?
Should have known you were going to play a game.

"It stops at the atmosphere lol" is not an answer.
Sure it is.  Just because you are too stupid to understand it does not make it any less of an answer.
Still doesn't matter.  Your claim is stupid as I clearly understand his answer to know it is completely wrong.  It would be "an answer", but a retarded one at that.
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TheEngineer

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Re: Electromagnetic Accelerator
« Reply #84 on: August 10, 2008, 10:11:54 PM »
Should have known you were going to play a game.
Right.  You were making stuff up again.  Thanks for playing.

"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
-- Bob Hudson

sokarul

• 19303
• Extra Racist
Re: Electromagnetic Accelerator
« Reply #85 on: August 10, 2008, 10:13:46 PM »
Should have known you were going to play a game.
Right.  You were making stuff up again.  Thanks for playing.
And the rest of my post?
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TheEngineer

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Re: Electromagnetic Accelerator
« Reply #86 on: August 10, 2008, 10:15:02 PM »
You still don't understand the answer so I really can't help you.  It's been explained over and over again, but your stupidity is just too great to span.

"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
-- Bob Hudson

sokarul

• 19303
• Extra Racist
Re: Electromagnetic Accelerator
« Reply #87 on: August 10, 2008, 10:17:02 PM »
You still don't understand the answer so I really can't help you.  It's been explained over and over again, but your stupidity is just too great to span.

Divito peaced out, how could he explain it?  SPACES DOESN'T STOP AT THE ATMOSPHERE.  Do you think it does?
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TheEngineer

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Re: Electromagnetic Accelerator
« Reply #88 on: August 10, 2008, 10:18:45 PM »
Divito peaced
Glad you finally looked it up.

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SPACES DOESN'T STOP AT THE ATMOSPHERE.
What the hell are you talking about?  No one was arguing this.

"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
-- Bob Hudson

sokarul

• 19303
• Extra Racist
Re: Electromagnetic Accelerator
« Reply #89 on: August 10, 2008, 10:21:42 PM »
Divito peaced
Glad you finally looked it up.
I didn't have to look anything up.  I saw it was wrong when you pointed it out.

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SPACES DOESN'T STOP AT THE ATMOSPHERE.
What the hell are you talking about?  No one was arguing this.
[/quote]

Divito is.
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