No motive, no case

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Re: No motive, no case
« Reply #90 on: September 03, 2008, 02:08:22 PM »
I don't get how people can call it a Governmental Conspiracy, when the Round Earth Theory has existed long before the space race, the Americas or anything of this magnitude could happen.

Money has existed for a long time as well, noob.
Then how do you propose that people would earn money by convincing others that Earth is spherical?

Conspiracy noob, see FAQ.
I did. It tells me nothing, only that the government would "lose" money.
But it doesn't explain how the government would INTRODUCE the concept, and earn money from it.

Re: No motive, no case
« Reply #91 on: September 03, 2008, 02:09:13 PM »
I don't get how people can call it a Governmental Conspiracy, when the Round Earth Theory has existed long before the space race, the Americas or anything of this magnitude could happen.

Money has existed for a long time as well, noob.
Then how do you propose that people would earn money by convincing others that Earth is spherical?

Conspiracy noob, see FAQ.
I did. It tells me nothing, only that the government would "lose" money.
But it doesn't explain how the government would INTRODUCE the concept, and earn money from it.

It's part of the conspiracy to make you think that.
I believe the earth is flat because I have a brain the size of a peanut.

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divito the truthist

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Re: No motive, no case
« Reply #92 on: September 03, 2008, 02:09:49 PM »
You believe that in governments that are ruled by the gun, a person would be daring enough to try and fool a government where they could be shot on the spot for such a thing? And do you think these types of governments would allow these space agencies to just run around free doing whatever they wanted, free spirited experimentation-with the occassional check in by the government just to see how they're doing?

Well, unless dictators (or any other government for that matter) are somehow smarter in relation to space, physics, engineering, etc... than the people in charge of the space agencies of the country, I imagine it's fairly simple to fool them. If they can't discern fact from fiction, how do you propose they'd be shot on the spot?
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Re: No motive, no case
« Reply #93 on: September 03, 2008, 02:10:43 PM »
I don't get how people can call it a Governmental Conspiracy, when the Round Earth Theory has existed long before the space race, the Americas or anything of this magnitude could happen.

Money has existed for a long time as well, noob.
Then how do you propose that people would earn money by convincing others that Earth is spherical?

Conspiracy noob, see FAQ.
I did. It tells me nothing, only that the government would "lose" money.
But it doesn't explain how the government would INTRODUCE the concept, and earn money from it.

It's part of the conspiracy to make you think that.
My question remains unanswered.

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divito the truthist

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Re: No motive, no case
« Reply #94 on: September 03, 2008, 02:11:51 PM »
But it doesn't explain how the government would INTRODUCE the concept, and earn money from it.

Well, intially NASA is launched under the assumption of the spherical Earth. After initial funding and missions, experiments etc... they discover it is not spherical. They devise a plan:

NASA makes their request for a budget amount, complete with justifications and such to Congress. Congress looks it over and approves or attempts to amend based on their decisions. The resulting money from the budget is used to fake the subsequent missions and plans they had submitted to Congress, and given that it costs much less to fake it than actually produce the real results, the higher-ups can profit the difference.
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Re: No motive, no case
« Reply #95 on: September 03, 2008, 02:17:05 PM »
Well, unless dictators (or any other government for that matter) are somehow smarter in relation to space, physics, engineering, etc... than the people in charge of the space agencies of the country, I imagine it's fairly simple to fool them. If they can't discern fact from fiction, how do you propose they'd be shot on the spot?
In a dictatorship scientist and researchers are not given the freedoms they enjoy in other countries. They work for the government and the government alone. They are not given money to spend, instead ask for what they need and are provided with it. There's no such thing as an audit. You produce results or are replaced. No "smart" individual in that type of enviroment is going to be able to con such a government out of billions(or even millions) of dollars.

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divito the truthist

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Re: No motive, no case
« Reply #96 on: September 03, 2008, 02:40:05 PM »
In a dictatorship scientist and researchers are not given the freedoms they enjoy in other countries. They work for the government and the government alone. They are not given money to spend, instead ask for what they need and are provided with it. There's no such thing as an audit. You produce results or are replaced. No "smart" individual in that type of enviroment is going to be able to con such a government out of billions(or even millions) of dollars.

Ok, how many dictatorships have space agencies in the world?
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Re: No motive, no case
« Reply #97 on: September 03, 2008, 03:06:45 PM »
Quote
Well, intially NASA is launched under the assumption of the spherical Earth. After initial funding and missions, experiments etc... they discover it is not spherical. They devise a plan:

Quote
Quote from: divito the truthist on Today at 12:23:07 PM
NASA makes their request for a budget amount, complete with justifications and such to Congress. Congress looks it over and approves or attempts to amend based on their decisions. The resulting money from the budget is used to fake the subsequent missions and plans they had submitted to Congress, and given that it costs much less to fake it than actually produce the real results, the higher-ups can profit the difference.

So wait...NASA discovers the Earth is not spherical..What about the Russian and Sputnik? (just asking out of interest)
FET = Fake Earth Theory
RET = Real Earth Theory

And i wonder..Do penguins ever fall in space? Because that Ice Wall bust be pretty High!

Now it all makes sense!!! That's why we could never prove Santa!! He must be hiding at the Ice Wall!!

:D no

Re: No motive, no case
« Reply #98 on: September 03, 2008, 03:10:52 PM »
Quote
Well, intially NASA is launched under the assumption of the spherical Earth. After initial funding and missions, experiments etc... they discover it is not spherical. They devise a plan:

Quote
Quote from: divito the truthist on Today at 12:23:07 PM
NASA makes their request for a budget amount, complete with justifications and such to Congress. Congress looks it over and approves or attempts to amend based on their decisions. The resulting money from the budget is used to fake the subsequent missions and plans they had submitted to Congress, and given that it costs much less to fake it than actually produce the real results, the higher-ups can profit the difference.

So wait...NASA discovers the Earth is not spherical..What about the Russian and Sputnik? (just asking out of interest)
Aha, but NASA didn't discover it, columbus did. NASA simply deal with the conspiracy in the current era. The fact that NASA is American and not global is not significant - after all when did annoying things like fact get in the way of FET?
And let's not forget that most Americans believe the world to be 50 states!
I believe the earth is flat because I have a brain the size of a peanut.

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Re: No motive, no case
« Reply #99 on: September 03, 2008, 03:35:30 PM »
In a dictatorship scientist and researchers are not given the freedoms they enjoy in other countries. They work for the government and the government alone. They are not given money to spend, instead ask for what they need and are provided with it. There's no such thing as an audit. You produce results or are replaced. No "smart" individual in that type of enviroment is going to be able to con such a government out of billions(or even millions) of dollars.

Ok, how many dictatorships have space agencies in the world?
Sorry. Just got home. Let's just deal with China and Russia for now.

Re: No motive, no case
« Reply #100 on: September 03, 2008, 04:02:14 PM »
In a dictatorship scientist and researchers are not given the freedoms they enjoy in other countries. They work for the government and the government alone. They are not given money to spend, instead ask for what they need and are provided with it. There's no such thing as an audit. You produce results or are replaced. No "smart" individual in that type of enviroment is going to be able to con such a government out of billions(or even millions) of dollars.

Ok, how many dictatorships have space agencies in the world?
Sorry. Just got home. Let's just deal with China and Russia for now.
Don't forget the USA
I believe the earth is flat because I have a brain the size of a peanut.

Re: No motive, no case
« Reply #101 on: September 03, 2008, 11:42:13 PM »
Well, intially NASA is launched under the assumption of the spherical Earth. After initial funding and missions, experiments etc... they discover it is not spherical...

NASA was created after the launch of Sputnik.  The fact that any American with a shortwave radio was able to listen to the signal from Sputnik as it passed overhead was evidence that there was really something there.  There was also the fact that people could observe the satellite passing overhead.

The chronology of the conspiracy has some problems it appears.

Re: No motive, no case
« Reply #102 on: September 04, 2008, 05:06:40 AM »
Yes, I read and responded, but I'm not upset. Whereas you clearly seem to be. So why keep frequenting this forum?

Because I love a good argument, and I don't let concern trolls like you ruin it for me.

And it sounds to me like you're upset. Don't like me posting in your forum with my pesky questions? It doesn't matter to me anyway, because as far as I know you haven't responded to even one of them, and if you have, it was probably something retarded, and I disregarded it.
Are you getting a good argument here? And I'm certainly not trying to ruin anything for you? My question stems from my past experience that indicates many people seem to come here with a burning desire to prove others wrong. Your assertion that only "qualified" people be allowed to argue the point seemed to back that up. Assuming I probably said "something retarded" is also the words of someone who is not actually looking for a debate, but keen to show how "superior" he is.

What words have I used that would indicate I am upset?

And this isn't my forum. Like most people here I am just a visitor.

For the record my first post in response to one of yours was to congratulate you on the tremendous 3D models you created and ask you what program you use.
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PeopleOnBehalfOfLogic

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Re: No motive, no case
« Reply #103 on: September 04, 2008, 09:53:40 AM »
I'll start again.

A: People keep insisting the goverment isn't in on this, yet they are silencing people. Explain.

B: Far more people would need to know. Ice wall guards (and suppliers, and maintenance, etc) the teams of people required to fake video well, people who secretly install fish-eye lenses, anyone who has been in space, people who made the stratellites (and put them up in the sky, and give them maintenance (by the way: how do the stratellites propel themselves so fast and for so long?), and refuel them (which no one has ever seen) and design cunning ways of fooling lasers, and red shift theorem, long-haul plane navigators, etc etc. How could NASA do that alone, and for just 10 billion pounds? We need ten times more than that just to build a windfarm!

C:Why don't the NASA execututives live in complete luxury? They have an income in the billions (according to you) so why are they not spending it? If its just so no-one suspects them, whats the point doing it in the first place?

I will probably edit this post as I think of more.
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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: No motive, no case
« Reply #104 on: September 04, 2008, 11:24:16 AM »
Where does the money go?

NASA makes their request for a budget amount, complete with justifications and such to Congress. Congress looks it over and approves or attempts to amend based on their decisions. The resulting money from the budget is used to fake the subsequent missions and plans they had submitted to Congress, and given that it costs much less to fake it than actually produce the real results, the higher-ups can profit the difference.

Financial auditors are going to look at invoices, they are not going to take the word of NASA that they spent the money on this and that.  For example, rocket fuel costs, power requirements, etc.  Auditors will account for everything.

In addition, though several different contractors may make different parts for a rocket, NASA does not construct the rocket, it is designed by a contractor, who subcontracts for additional parts and labor. 

I happen to work for a govt. agency, not NASA.  I am a network engineer, however I do not make the equipment used to run our network, it is provided by a vendor, who orders parts from other companies for parts such as circuit boards.

The F/22 raptor is made by Lockeed Martin, for example. http://www.lockheedmartin.com/products/f22/

Also, to respond to posters saying that financial auditors do not know the technology, thereby they can be fooled, you are correct, but then you also have security auditors, infrastructure auditors, etc.  They do look into the technology, and they do know what they are talking about.

If individuals at NASA are pocketing the rest of the money that they do not use, then how have all of them (over 50 years of NASA execs) evaded an IRS audit?  Where would they put all those billions of dollars?  Not the bank I hope.



Re: No motive, no case
« Reply #105 on: September 04, 2008, 03:01:38 PM »
I'll start again.

A: People keep insisting the goverment isn't in on this, yet they are silencing people. Explain.
People are using Government and NASA interchangeably. This is a mistake. It is NASAs conspiracy.

B: Far more people would need to know. Ice wall guards (and suppliers, and maintenance, etc) the teams of people required to fake video well, people who secretly install fish-eye lenses, anyone who has been in space, people who made the stratellites (and put them up in the sky, and give them maintenance (by the way: how do the stratellites propel themselves so fast and for so long?), and refuel them (which no one has ever seen) and design cunning ways of fooling lasers, and red shift theorem, long-haul plane navigators, etc etc. How could NASA do that alone, and for just 10 billion pounds? We need ten times more than that just to build a windfarm!

C:Why don't the NASA execututives live in complete luxury? They have an income in the billions (according to you) so why are they not spending it? If its just so no-one suspects them, whats the point doing it in the first place?
Obvioulsy NASA execs don't have billions of pounds at their disposal as they are using it to pay the people you listed in point B. Regarding that, I don't believe they would both guarding the Ice Wall. Seems a lot of expense for no real gain. The people required to fake video wouldn't necessarily be told the world was flat. I think "We need to get to the moon before the Russians, and all our rockets are exploding on take off. It'll be easier if we fake this stuff and make the deadline that President Kennedy set for us." would do the job.
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divito the truthist

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Re: No motive, no case
« Reply #106 on: September 04, 2008, 04:11:18 PM »
Financial auditors are going to look at invoices, they are not going to take the word of NASA that they spent the money on this and that.  For example, rocket fuel costs, power requirements, etc.  Auditors will account for everything.

In addition, though several different contractors may make different parts for a rocket, NASA does not construct the rocket, it is designed by a contractor, who subcontracts for additional parts and labor. 

I happen to work for a govt. agency, not NASA.  I am a network engineer, however I do not make the equipment used to run our network, it is provided by a vendor, who orders parts from other companies for parts such as circuit boards.

The F/22 raptor is made by Lockeed Martin, for example. http://www.lockheedmartin.com/products/f22/

Also, to respond to posters saying that financial auditors do not know the technology, thereby they can be fooled, you are correct, but then you also have security auditors, infrastructure auditors, etc.  They do look into the technology, and they do know what they are talking about.

If individuals at NASA are pocketing the rest of the money that they do not use, then how have all of them (over 50 years of NASA execs) evaded an IRS audit?  Where would they put all those billions of dollars?  Not the bank I hope.

A lot of the organizational aspects of NASA are legitimate, and are paid accordingly. The technical aspects that are faked are run through NASA and government contractors. It is speculated by some people that these contractors are also within the conspiracy on some level; this allows for certain forgery characteristics within the audits. I also wonder how closely they are scrutinized during an audit being so close to the governmental agencies.
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AmateurAstronomer

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Re: No motive, no case
« Reply #107 on: September 04, 2008, 04:23:14 PM »
Can any Flat Earth'ers show any proof of corruption?

I know proof is a dirty word, but still, I just don't see it. If you could show me just one instance I might be more receptive.
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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: No motive, no case
« Reply #108 on: September 04, 2008, 06:50:12 PM »
Financial auditors are going to look at invoices, they are not going to take the word of NASA that they spent the money on this and that.  For example, rocket fuel costs, power requirements, etc.  Auditors will account for everything.

In addition, though several different contractors may make different parts for a rocket, NASA does not construct the rocket, it is designed by a contractor, who subcontracts for additional parts and labor. 

I happen to work for a govt. agency, not NASA.  I am a network engineer, however I do not make the equipment used to run our network, it is provided by a vendor, who orders parts from other companies for parts such as circuit boards.

The F/22 raptor is made by Lockeed Martin, for example. http://www.lockheedmartin.com/products/f22/

Also, to respond to posters saying that financial auditors do not know the technology, thereby they can be fooled, you are correct, but then you also have security auditors, infrastructure auditors, etc.  They do look into the technology, and they do know what they are talking about.

If individuals at NASA are pocketing the rest of the money that they do not use, then how have all of them (over 50 years of NASA execs) evaded an IRS audit?  Where would they put all those billions of dollars?  Not the bank I hope.

A lot of the organizational aspects of NASA are legitimate, and are paid accordingly. The technical aspects that are faked are run through NASA and government contractors. It is speculated by some people that these contractors are also within the conspiracy on some level; this allows for certain forgery characteristics within the audits. I also wonder how closely they are scrutinized during an audit being so close to the governmental agencies.

There are internal audits, and external audits.  External audits would not be affiliated with NASA, and all government agencies are part of them.  Of course, it all could be corrupt, I admit that it is absolutely impossible to prove OR disprove a conspiracy.  However, it's fun to speculate.

How about my last set of questions?  How would these execs hide all this extra money from the IRS, their family, friends, etc.  Any comment?

Re: No motive, no case
« Reply #109 on: September 04, 2008, 07:04:08 PM »
Its easy to ascertain such costs. most of Nasa's materials are specially made by other companies. So an auditor could go to a large precision lens manufacturer and ask their price to build something along the lines of what you might find in hubble and do that for all of the most expensive parts ($100,000+) to see the entire materials cost.

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Re: No motive, no case
« Reply #110 on: September 04, 2008, 07:13:29 PM »
How would these execs hide all this extra money from the IRS, their family, friends, etc.  Any comment?

Can't really speculate on how intertwined they are with their family, but I imagine offshore accounts are a part of the equation.
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Re: No motive, no case
« Reply #111 on: September 05, 2008, 01:27:47 AM »
Well, intially NASA is launched under the assumption of the spherical Earth. After initial funding and missions, experiments etc... they discover it is not spherical...

NASA was created after the launch of Sputnik.  The fact that any American with a shortwave radio was able to listen to the signal from Sputnik as it passed overhead was evidence that there was really something there.  There was also the fact that people could observe the satellite passing overhead.

The chronology of the conspiracy has some problems it appears.

and the problems with your timeline?

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Re: No motive, no case
« Reply #112 on: September 05, 2008, 01:43:43 AM »
Quote
NASA was created after the launch of Sputnik.  The fact that any American with a shortwave radio was able to listen to the signal from Sputnik as it passed overhead was evidence that there was really something there.  There was also the fact that people could observe the satellite passing overhead.

Are you kidding? Sputnik was the size of a basket ball. No one could see it even if it really was in orbit.

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Re: No motive, no case
« Reply #113 on: September 05, 2008, 06:10:23 AM »
People are using Government and NASA interchangeably. This is a mistake. It is NASAs conspiracy.
I beleive it's stated in the FAQ that it's a government conspiricy along with governments of other countries. NASA alone has not existed long enough to have been manning the ice walls and keeping explorers from discovering that the earth is flat.

quote]
Obvioulsy NASA execs don't have billions of pounds at their disposal as they are using it to pay the people you listed in point B. Regarding that, I don't believe they would both guarding the Ice Wall. Seems a lot of expense for no real gain. The people required to fake video wouldn't necessarily be told the world was flat. I think "We need to get to the moon before the Russians, and all our rockets are exploding on take off. It'll be easier if we fake this stuff and make the deadline that President Kennedy set for us." would do the job.
[/quote]
If NASA is spending all the money they're making off the lie just to support the lie then what is the point? I thought money was the motive. That would be like hiring a gang of thieves for 10,000 dollars and having them pull a heist to steal 10,000 dollars.

What then is NASA's motive for the lie?

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: No motive, no case
« Reply #114 on: September 05, 2008, 06:38:29 AM »
How would these execs hide all this extra money from the IRS, their family, friends, etc.  Any comment?

Can't really speculate on how intertwined they are with their family, but I imagine offshore accounts are a part of the equation.

Off shore accounts can still be traced.  If you have ever been audited by the IRS, they will investigate that.  Plus, when an individual gets a Top secret security clearance, they audit your whole life.

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divito the truthist

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Re: No motive, no case
« Reply #115 on: September 05, 2008, 08:56:19 AM »
If NASA is spending all the money they're making off the lie just to support the lie then what is the point?

You think putting a satellite in space costs the same as faking it?

Off shore accounts can still be traced.

News to me.
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Re: No motive, no case
« Reply #116 on: September 05, 2008, 09:59:40 AM »
You think putting a satellite in space costs the same as faking it?

No, fletch suggested that all the money beng made by faking the things NASA does goes on to pay for the expenses of guards and such aong the ice wall.

I then asked what would the motive be if not money.

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: No motive, no case
« Reply #117 on: September 05, 2008, 10:08:26 AM »
It is especially true since 9/11.  Here's an article about Swiss bank accounts.  Read closely the part about Bank Secrecy about a third of the way down:

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43349

U.S. Tax law states you must reveal all off shore accounts, unless you want to face tax evasion charges.  Most top dogs in the executive branch will have to apply for a Top Secret, or at least a Secret clearance in the US Govt.  These require intense investigations by a third party into every aspect of your life.  They are not interested in hearing what your friends have to say about you, they are interested in hearing about the people who don't like you.  Ex wives, girlfriends, etc.  In addition, they also will investigate you finances, and who you owe money too.  Im not saying that somebody couldn't keep certain things a secret, but eventually the secret gets out.  Somebody always squeals, sometimes it happens sooner than later, and even the top brass of our govt. is not immune:  IE:  Watergate, Monica Lewinski (sp), Keating 5, area 51, illegal wiretapping, and Isreal's 100 nukes.

I am pretty confident that if the U.S. govt wants to find out about off shore accounts, they can.

Re: No motive, no case
« Reply #118 on: September 05, 2008, 02:32:28 PM »
If NASA is spending all the money they're making off the lie just to support the lie then what is the point? I thought money was the motive. That would be like hiring a gang of thieves for 10,000 dollars and having them pull a heist to steal 10,000 dollars.

What then is NASA's motive for the lie?
To keep themselves gainfully employed. If you are a pharmeceutical company, do you spend research dollars on eradicating a disease, or on treating the symptoms of the disease to ease the suffering of those afflicted with it. The former puts your company out of work, while the later generates income. If you discovered that space flight was impossible and therefore your government department would stop receiving the funds (or the vast majority of them) it would be in your best interest to keep that information to yourself.
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PeopleOnBehalfOfLogic

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Re: No motive, no case
« Reply #119 on: September 08, 2008, 02:04:02 PM »
But how can they be spending so much and still be gainfully employed? 10 billion pounds plus their salery is not enough to make a profit, as has already been discussed.
Just noticed my name is actually pretty insulting. Apologies.