No motive, no case

Quote

I met a NASA contractor.  Your statement is WRONG.

Get banned.

That would be the only possible way for me to stop owning the FET. 

I started a thread after I met him.  He indeed knew a great deal about physics, being a physicist and all.  The company he works for built parts for NASA. 

Tom I don't understand the logic behind your statement. Why would he need to be banned for that. From what I've seen from a lot of you posts, they seem to be nonsensical lashing outs.

Dogplatter, could you please provide me with some of this information that you have on these groups and NASA. In all seriousness, I would like to read it.

The only real reason we would end in a stalemate is that I have realized that you are willing to listen to and create your own conspiracy theories than listen to proven fact. Yes, anything in the world can be argued as possible if we all create conspiracy theories. I could argue that the sky is red or that two plus two doesn't equal four with conspiracies. Everyone has the right to believe or create what they want. I don't think that the problem with FET is the science, but the instability of the whole conspiracy theory deal. I think you need to take a heavy dose of Occam's Razor http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_Razor.

Sorry for the bluntness, but it just seems pointless to continue in the circumstances. No one here has given me solid proof of you current motive of avarice, or put forth another more plausible motive. I welcome it, so please do!

Because this "supposed underground crime ring" (aka NASA) is receiving money from "above ground" or uncorrupted sources (tax money, unsuspecting politicians) that require that the money be tracked and accounted for. Money laundering is done with money already underground (i.e. from illegal sources), and these sources don't require accounting.

And what is this $26 billion that you are referring to?

What irony. The point is it is much easier to "launder" money if you are the government. Which is exactly why they can "lose" $26 Billion and you will only ask, "And what is this $26 billion that you are referring to?"

Kudos narcberry, you got me there.

Just for reference, here's a summary with some links in another thread about the 50th Space Wing: Masters of Space, Scaled Composites, The Star Alliance and other elements of the aerospace wing of the Conspiracy - http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=21870.msg440477#msg440477

Here's a news article dealing with the government finding out that a GlobCon company swindled them out of over 100 million USD - http://www.phillipsandcohen.com/CM/NewsSettlements/Northrop_Jun_9_2003.asp

Northrop Grumman has agreed to pay $111.2 million to the federal government to settle a whistleblower lawsuit alleging that TRW Inc., which it recently acquired, padded bills submitted to the government under space and technology contracts.

Just the tip of the iceberg. If only they knew the true horrors of the Conspiracy, but they don't (N.B - there are obviously plenty of Conspiracy moles in the US government, but the "above board" parts may actually be completely innocent).

Just for reference, here's a summary with some links in another thread about the 50th Space Wing: Masters of Space, Scaled Composites, The Star Alliance and other elements of the aerospace wing of the Conspiracy - http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=21870.msg440477#msg440477

Here's a news article dealing with the government finding out that a GlobCon company swindled them out of over 100 million USD - http://www.phillipsandcohen.com/CM/NewsSettlements/Northrop_Jun_9_2003.asp

Quote

Northrop Grumman has agreed to pay $111.2 million to the federal government to settle a whistleblower lawsuit alleging that TRW Inc., which it recently acquired, padded bills submitted to the government under space and technology contracts.

Just the tip of the iceberg. If only they knew the true horrors of the Conspiracy, but they don't (N.B - there are obviously plenty of Conspiracy moles in the US government, but the "above board" parts may actually be completely innocent).

lol.  So the conspiracy swindled itself out of money?  After all, they are all in on it, governmnet and governmnet contractors. 

Regarding the 50th Space Wing: Again, you are taking fact (that this military (and civilian I might add) unit does exist) and adding your own theory to it. It is mere speculation, nothing more. There is no substantial evidence from what you showed me to assume that there is something amiss.

The whole $111.2 million deal does, of course, work in your favor. Sadly, corruption and abuse of funds occurs in many corporations and government entities. But every case of corruption does not mean that your conspiracy theory works. Jumping to conclusions can lead to a discovery of fact, but is not fact itself. In fact in this case these people were caught, most likely by auditors or someone snooping around. So it is indeed possible to catch these people, even though an auditor might not understand the technology, which is the point I have been trying to make all along.

It's fairly easy to move money. My brother-in-law owns a hardware store, and a college friend owns a radio shack franchise. How much do you think I can inflate my prices to my customer by buying products from my friends at huge markup? How much do you think my friends are willing to throw my way in various other deals or under the table for making them money?
NASA works the same way.

Thank you, Ski. That is a valid point and most important, it is logical and possible.

Assuming the conspiracy is correct, let's say the situation is this: NASA contracts out Company X to make a rocket part. They convince Company X to charge them an exorbitant price, well over the normal; and then feed them back half of the amount they charged over for the head guys' pocket. This way Company X need not know of the conspiracy, simply that they are part of a fraud scheme. I believe this is the point you wished to make?

The problem with this is much the same: Company X will mysteriously lose a large chunk of money from an already suscipciously high sale (note, the company will understand the technology behind the sale. They know their own technology). These are the things auditors (Company X's auditors) and anti-money laundering investigators look for, especially if it throws up the red flags a fifty year fraud and laundering partnership like this would. When money goes from anywhere inside the company to a personal or unidentified account (unless authorized), it causes people to get suspicious.

Thank you, Ski. That is a valid point and most important, it is logical and possible.

Assuming the conspiracy is correct, let's say the situation is this: NASA contracts out Company X to make a rocket part. They convince Company X to charge them an exorbitant price, well over the normal; and then feed them back half of the amount they charged over for the head guys' pocket. This way Company X need not know of the conspiracy, simply that they are part of a fraud scheme. I believe this is the point you wished to make?

The problem with this is much the same: Company X will mysteriously lose a large chunk of money from an already suscipciously high sale (note, the company will understand the technology behind the sale. They know their own technology). These are the things auditors (Company X's auditors) and anti-money laundering investigators look for, especially if it throws up the red flags a fifty year fraud and laundering partnership like this would. When money goes from anywhere inside the company to a personal or unidentified account (unless authorized), it causes people to get suspicious.

That sort of makes sense, but would imply that Company X are actually making technologies capable of travelling in space, which, let's face it, they aren't. For stuff like nuts, bolts, paint and so on, yeah this model would work fine, but I think the really big money is in products which don't even do anything - like satellites.

Quote from: Liquid Snake on August 06, 2008, 01:26:39 PM

Thank you, Ski. That is a valid point and most important, it is logical and possible.

Assuming the conspiracy is correct, let's say the situation is this: NASA contracts out Company X to make a rocket part. They convince Company X to charge them an exorbitant price, well over the normal; and then feed them back half of the amount they charged over for the head guys' pocket. This way Company X need not know of the conspiracy, simply that they are part of a fraud scheme. I believe this is the point you wished to make?

The problem with this is much the same: Company X will mysteriously lose a large chunk of money from an already suscipciously high sale (note, the company will understand the technology behind the sale. They know their own technology). These are the things auditors (Company X's auditors) and anti-money laundering investigators look for, especially if it throws up the red flags a fifty year fraud and laundering partnership like this would. When money goes from anywhere inside the company to a personal or unidentified account (unless authorized), it causes people to get suspicious.

That sort of makes sense, but would imply that Company X are actually making technologies capable of travelling in space, which, let's face it, they aren't. For stuff like nuts, bolts, paint and so on, yeah this model would work fine, but I think the really big money is in products which don't even do anything - like satellites.

Now I am not trying to derail the topic here but why can these objects not go into space? at what altitude will the UA affect the satellite and keep it up and why would it be impossible for us to get there I mean it must be less that 3000 miles away

Now I am not trying to derail the topic here but why can these objects not go into space? at what altitude will the UA affect the satellite and keep it up and why would it be impossible for us to get there I mean it must be less that 3000 miles away

Oh no, you're misunderstanding my conception of the UA. The UA acts as a surface, it's like a cosmic tabletop. It doesn't "affect" anything that's not touching it, just as a tabletop doesn't either. The point is that when an object leaves the atmolayer, it is no longer within the Earth's UA frame of reference, so the Earth would immediately rise to meet it again unless it could maintain an acceleration better than that of the Earth, as well as a speed greater than the hypothetical speed of the Earth (Earth has no discretely measurable speed) - impossible. In practice, this phenomenon would basically act as a ceiling on how high an object can travel - in much the same way that a submarine can't go above sea-level, a craft couldn't go above atmolayer-level.

Maybe the people involved in the space program are passionate people sincerely interested in advancing man kind and helping us understand the universe whatever shape it may be. Currently all the evidence they have points to a round earth, they are not trying to deceive us.

I agree with the original poster that there is not sufficient motivation for this conspiracy. I also agree that monetarily the cost would be enormous. Besides, most people are not good at keeping secrets. Also, besides just the government, there are a lot of private companies that run their daily operations off of satellites. Direct TV anyone? The more you think about it, the more massive the conspiracy becomes.

Quote from: cbarnett97 on August 06, 2008, 03:58:50 PM

Now I am not trying to derail the topic here but why can these objects not go into space? at what altitude will the UA affect the satellite and keep it up and why would it be impossible for us to get there I mean it must be less that 3000 miles away

Oh no, you're misunderstanding my conception of the UA. The UA acts as a surface, it's like a cosmic tabletop. It doesn't "affect" anything that's not touching it, just as a tabletop doesn't either. The point is that when an object leaves the atmolayer, it is no longer within the Earth's UA frame of reference, so the Earth would immediately rise to meet it again unless it could maintain an acceleration better than that of the Earth, as well as a speed greater than the hypothetical speed of the Earth (Earth has no discretely measurable speed) - impossible. In practice, this phenomenon would basically act as a ceiling on how high an object can travel - in much the same way that a submarine can't go above sea-level, a craft couldn't go above atmolayer-level.

started a new topic as to not derail this one

I agree with the original poster that there is not sufficient motivation for this conspiracy. I also agree that monetarily the cost would be enormous.

The projected budget of NASA alone for 2009 is 20.2 Billion US dollars. That's right, 20200000000000 dollars. For one year.

Besides, most people are not good at keeping secrets. Also, besides just the government, there are a lot of private companies that run their daily operations off of satellites. Direct TV anyone? The more you think about it, the more massive the conspiracy becomes.

There certainly are private companies involved in the space deception. Not all of the Conspiracy is government, and certainly not all aspects of government are in on the Conspiracy. Not even most.

From this thread I have concluded that it is upon this point of motive for a conspiracy that the FET falls apart. I have seen no stable arugements. You reject common sense and probability and in their place put wild assumptions and infinite, fantastical (yet "possible") situations. I repeat, consider applying Occam's Razor: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor. Common sense is a gift we all have. Victor Hugo said "Common sense is in spite of, not as the result of education." This is an innate power we all have, no matter our education.

If you do not adhere to the above, there is no real point in discussion. We are at odds, and none will be able to convince the other.

From this thread I have concluded that it is upon this point of motive for a conspiracy that the FET falls apart. I have seen no stable arugements. You reject common sense and probability and in their place put wild assumptions and infinite, fantastical (yet "possible") situations. I repeat, consider applying Occam's Razor: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor. Common sense is a gift we all have. Victor Hugo said "Common sense is in spite of, not as the result of education." This is an innate power we all have, no matter our education.

If you do not adhere to the above, there is no real point in discussion. We are at odds, and none will be able to convince the other.

Occam's Razor suggests that one should make as few unnecessary assumptions as possible. I don't feel that assuming that there's a Conspiracy because the Earth is flat yet people say it is round is "unnecessary".

How are billions of dollars not a perfectly reasonable motive for anyone to do anything? People rob banks for mere thousands.

Furthermore, I think the position of 'auditors' has been presented as something unbeatable. They are accountants, nothing more, and the fact is that all you need to fool an accountant is a better accountant. Couple that with the scope and depth of the technology researched and developed by NASA, and you have something which is beyond the grasp of almost any accountant.

The projected budget of NASA alone for 2009 is 20.2 Billion US dollars. That's right, 20200000000000 dollars. For one year.

I couldn't help but point out that you added three extra zeros in that figure.  $20,200,000,000,000 is a lot more than the government allocates each year for everything.

How are billions of dollars not a perfectly reasonable motive for anyone to do anything? People rob banks for mere thousands.

To me, at some point, the money would become worthless.  That is my view.

Quote from: Dogplatter on August 06, 2008, 04:31:09 PM

The projected budget of NASA alone for 2009 is 20.2 Billion US dollars. That's right, 20200000000000 dollars. For one year.

I couldn't help but point out that you added three extra zeros in that figure.  $20,200,000,000,000 is a lot more than the government allocates each year for everything.

Check me if I'm wrong, but a British billion is a million million where an American billion is a thousand million.

Quote from: platypus on August 07, 2008, 07:32:34 AM

Quote from: Dogplatter on August 06, 2008, 04:31:09 PM

The projected budget of NASA alone for 2009 is 20.2 Billion US dollars. That's right, 20200000000000 dollars. For one year.

I couldn't help but point out that you added three extra zeros in that figure.  $20,200,000,000,000 is a lot more than the government allocates each year for everything.

Check me if I'm wrong, but a British billion is a million million where an American billion is a thousand million.

I think you're right.  But this is NASA we are talking about...

Quote from: markjo on August 07, 2008, 07:56:06 AM

Quote from: platypus on August 07, 2008, 07:32:34 AM

Quote from: Dogplatter on August 06, 2008, 04:31:09 PM

The projected budget of NASA alone for 2009 is 20.2 Billion US dollars. That's right, 20200000000000 dollars. For one year.

I couldn't help but point out that you added three extra zeros in that figure.  $20,200,000,000,000 is a lot more than the government allocates each year for everything.

Check me if I'm wrong, but a British billion is a million million where an American billion is a thousand million.

I think you're right.  But this is NASA we are talking about...

But Dogplatter is from England and he may have confused US and British numbering systems.

I think you're right.  But this is NASA we are talking about...

I looked it up, he is.  But yeah, you can't use a million million when talking about the Dollar.  

This is funny though, dogplatter bases his conspiracy on false information.  Although its nice to see him think America is richer than it really is.  

I don't think it's fair to attack him like that based on a little misunderstanding.  What if they did that to you?

I don't think it's fair to attack him like that based on a little misunderstanding.  What if they did that to you?

Its kind of a big mistake,well, three orders of magnitude.(10^3)

Quote from: platypus on August 07, 2008, 08:04:57 AM

I don't think it's fair to attack him like that based on a little misunderstanding.  What if they did that to you?

Its kind of a big mistake,well, three orders of magnitude.(10^3)

Bah, what's a few decimal places among friends?

To be fair to Username, his source likely used the word billion rather than typing out all of the zeros.

Quote from: platypus on August 07, 2008, 08:04:57 AM

I don't think it's fair to attack him like that based on a little misunderstanding.  What if they did that to you?

Its kind of a big mistake,well, three orders of magnitude.(10^3)

Yes, but he did give the correct figure in the same post. He's still talking about the same number, he just represented it incorrectlly in numerals.

(gets back on topic) During the cold war, the US spent trillions on missiles and spies. But why would they do this if russia is as friendly as the faq says they are?

Why can't any FE'ers get a job in any of these fields, and show us the conspiracy from the inside?

I mean I'm sure if you applied for a job at NASA, and you had only FE knowledge, you'd get laughed out the door, so you'd have to get a degree in astrophysics or whatever, play the game so to speak, but after that you're golden. Then you can get an inside job and blow the whole thing wide open.

So why not? Are they unintelligent? Lack motivation? Don't really believe their own bullshit? Are they all armchair philosophers with some sob story that's keeping them from getting a higher education, and putting it towards their grand cause? Do they feel that they would be corrupted by the big money too?

Bottom line, if there's no one here at TFES with a higher education in physics, astrophysics, and aeronautics, you really have no grounds to promote the wild ass theories proposed. And if you did have these kinds of people, they're wasting their time posting here.