Satellites and the ISS

I really wanted to stay away from this forum, but this topic has really piqued my interest.

Here is an issue that hit me during the course of the day:

Satellites & the ISS:

Since, under FE theory, sustained space travel is impossible, how do FE'ers explain the fact that satellites can be seen in the sky in regular orbital patterns that fit perfectly into the RE model? Furthermore it is easily possible to get orbital data of the International Space Station and thus predictably spot it in the night sky. Anyone can use this site to check when the ISS will be visible for them at any given time, anywhere on Earth. Yes, yes, that's a NASA site - but the fact remains that the data given there is accurate and that the ISS can actually be seen floating across the night sky at the given dates.

Here is a summary of the hard facts:

- The ISS definitely exists, as anyone with eyes can verify.
- Anyone with access to a telescope can see that the ISS is not a plane and, due to its shape, could never "fly" as a normal plane does.
- The ISS is constantly in the air and never "lands".
- The flight path of the ISS fits perfectly into an orbital model according to RE theory.

I would be interested in hearing an explanation for the existence of the ISS according to FE theory. Of course, you guys consider NASA to be the core of some huge conspiracy, but then that would mean that they are somehow faking the existence of the international space station. Considering the facts that we have on the ISS, this does not seem likely - and even if it were so, the effort to do this would be phenomenal. So why even "pretend" do build it in the first place? The only logical explanation at this point seems to be that the ISS is indeed orbiting a spherical Earth.

Yeah. It's easy to take a picture of them through a telescope. Here's one I took in my backyard. Or NASA took somewhere. I don't remember which.


*photo compliments of FESSA

Yeah. It's easy to take a picture of them through a telescope. Here's one I took in my backyard. Or NASA took somewhere. I don't remember which.


*photo compliments of FESSA

Unfortunately I sold my telescope a few years back, due to a waning interest in astronomy - otherwise I would be happily snapping pics of it myself. Thanks for providing an example.

My point still stands though: since FE theory does not allow for sustained space travel, how can the perpetual presence of the ISS in the sky be explained in a working FE model?

How do you know that the light in the sky is in space?

How do you know that the light in the sky is in space?

You can triangulate the position if you so wish. The results may be a little lower assuming a FE, but they will still suggest it's a good few hundred kilometres above us.

Of course, the other main reason it can't really be in the atmosphere is that it's going at about 27,700 m/s, and would burn up/fall to pieces/run out of fuel in a fairly short space of time.

How do you know that the light in the sky is in space?

Here's what I said on another thread:

Quote from: Tom Bishop on June 11, 2008, 08:33:33 PM

Plenty of man made devices move through the sky. You must prove:

- That what you see is a space ship.
- That what you see is sitting beyond the atmosphere of the earth.
- That the device is moving at the speeds claimed by NASA.

This object is clearly moving very fast, because it travels around the world in 90 minutes (visit any satellite tracking website). If we transform the ISS's orbit onto a FE map we get this:


The yellow ellipse is the ISS's orbit.

If we estimate its size, it's roughly a circle 20,000km across, which means it travels 20,000*Pi km in 90mins which gives a speed of about 40 kms/s.

We can clearly see through a telescope that the object is not aerodynamic and it is not glowing due to atmospheric friction. Therefore, it must be above the atmsphere.

How do you know that the light in the sky is in space?

From my vantage point I obviously can't tell how high up the ISS is. The official figure is ~335km, which one person can not easily verify alone. But I am sure if two people got together and measured the exact position of the ISS at the same point in time, its height could be calculated easily. Considering that accurate positional data is provided, even that could be used to get fairly good data on the actual height of the ISS, assuming you either trust the source, or verify that the data is correct.

Given that, I think it's safe to assume that the ISS is in fact in space.

Right, so it seems safe to assume that the ISS is in space, in sustained orbit.

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You FE'ers had better come up with some answer for this pretty quick, because this looks to me like final and damning proof that the Earth is not flat.

I know. That picture I took is proof that the lights in the sky are the space station.

Its not lights *plural* its light.  And can be predicted with 100% accuracy in a round earth model. And can be seen with even the modest of telescopes.  If you can train the telescope on it long enough.

Now there is only one light in the sky?   

Now there is only one light in the sky?   

When it comes to the ISS?  Yes.

Do you know how many times I went out with my telescope in my youth and did not see what I was looking for?

What were you looking for?

All kinds of things. This was before the days of the internet. You had to get star charts or books/pamphlets about satellite flyovers, comets, planets, etc.  There is plenty of room for operator error. Not even accounting for weather. The last thing an observer thinks when he misses a pass is "It's not there." They attribute it to any of the other causes that might cause them to miss the event.

From my vantage point I obviously can't tell how high up the ISS is. The official figure is ~335km, which one person can not easily verify alone. But I am sure if two people got together and measured the exact position of the ISS at the same point in time, its height could be calculated easily.

So the only way to know if the ISS is in space is through a hypothetical parallax experiment no one has ever conducted on the ISS?

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From my vantage point I obviously can't tell how high up the ISS is. The official figure is ~335km, which one person can not easily verify alone. But I am sure if two people got together and measured the exact position of the ISS at the same point in time, its height could be calculated easily.

So the only way to know if the ISS is in space is through a hypothetical parallax experiment no one has ever conducted on the ISS?

Well if you believe in your theory so much you could do the experiment to provide some good solid evidence that you are right. and right after that you can take your telescope and take some pictures of some kids at that beach 33mi away.

I will help you a bit. I used monterey as my location because I am pretty sure that is roughly where you are at
THE FOLLOWING ISS SIGHTINGS ARE POSSIBLE FROM FRI JUN 27 TO WED JUL 09
SATELLITE LOCAL DURATION MAX ELEV APPROACH DEPARTURE
 DATE/TIME (MIN) (DEG) (DEG-DIR) (DEG-DIR)
     
ISS Sat Jun 28/05:23 AM 2 20 10 above S 20 above SE
ISS Mon Jun 30/04:36 AM 3 21 14 above S 12 above E
ISS Tue Jul 01/05:00 AM 3 88 17 above SW 38 above NE
ISS Wed Jul 02/03:51 AM 2 20 20 above ESE 11 above E
ISS Wed Jul 02/05:23 AM 3 25 11 above W 19 above N
ISS Thu Jul 03/04:14 AM 2 87 63 above SW 29 above NE
ISS Fri Jul 04/03:05 AM < 1 11 11 above E 11 above E
ISS Fri Jul 04/04:37 AM 3 24 16 above WNW 16 above NNE
ISS Sat Jul 05/03:28 AM < 1 29 29 above NE 23 above NE
ISS Sat Jul 05/05:01 AM 2 11 10 above NW 10 above N
ISS Sun Jul 06/03:51 AM 1 24 24 above NNW 18 above N
ISS Mon Jul 07/02:42 AM < 1 12 12 above NE 12 above NE
ISS Mon Jul 07/04:14 AM 2 11 10 above NW 10 above N
ISS Wed Jul 09/03:27 AM < 1 10 10 above NNW 10 above NNW
     

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From my vantage point I obviously can't tell how high up the ISS is. The official figure is ~335km, which one person can not easily verify alone. But I am sure if two people got together and measured the exact position of the ISS at the same point in time, its height could be calculated easily.

So the only way to know if the ISS is in space is through a hypothetical parallax experiment no one has ever conducted on the ISS?

Well, it's the only way we can easily verify it, yes. And the beauty of it is that anyone can do it with a bit of team work. All we need to do is find two people willing to work together to find a common time when the ISS is visible for them, check that the given coordinates for that time are correct, and then we can do the math. This could even be done multiple times if necessary to satisfy the skeptics.

Well, it's the only way we can easily verify it, yes. And the beauty of it is that anyone can do it with a bit of team work. All we need to do is find two people willing to work together to find a common time when the ISS is visible for them, check that the given coordinates for that time are correct, and then we can do the math. This could even be done multiple times if necessary to satisfy the skeptics.

Let us know when you guys decide to get your act together and organize this experiment.

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Well, it's the only way we can easily verify it, yes. And the beauty of it is that anyone can do it with a bit of team work. All we need to do is find two people willing to work together to find a common time when the ISS is visible for them, check that the given coordinates for that time are correct, and then we can do the math. This could even be done multiple times if necessary to satisfy the skeptics.

Let us know when you guys decide to get your act together and organize this event.

Since such an event would be relevant to this discussion, I believe it could be organized right here in this thread. People just need to state their location and possible ISS sighting times, so we can find "sighting buddies". 

I'm located in Germany near Braunschweig (no, I'm not german), and my sighting data is:

Since such an event would be relevant to this discussion, I believe it could be organized right here in this thread. People just need to state their location and possible ISS sighting times, so we can find "sighting buddies".

Actually on second thought, no, your idea will not work. The distance to celestial bodies are triangulated differently depending on whether a Flat Earth or a Round Earth is assumed. For example, simple triangulation can be used to calculate the sun to be 3,000 miles above the earth or 93 million miles above the earth depending on the earth model we assume.

On the distance to the sun on an FE, for example: On March 21-22 the sun is directly overhead at the equator and appears 45 degrees above the horizon at 45 degrees north and south latitude. As the angle of sun above the earth at the equator is 90 degrees while it is 45 degrees at 45 degrees north or south latitude, it follows that the angle at the sun between the vertical from the horizon and the line from the observers at 45 degrees north and south must also be 45 degrees. The result is two right angled triangles with legs of equal length. The distance between the equator and the points at 45 degrees north or south is approximately 3,000 miles. Ergo, the sun must be an equal distance above the equator.

The same data an be used under the assumption of an RE, with a little extra trig to account for the curvature between the points, to calculate the sun to be 93 million miles away.

I'm located in Germany near Braunschweig (no, I'm not german), and my sighting data is:

I've been to Brunswick. It's rather pleasant, though my favourite area of Germany remains Garmisch-Partenkirchen.

If the two people looking at the ISS were not too far away from each other, say 400-500km, the curvature of the Earth would not be so bad to completely throw the calculations off. No one is expecting the results to be 100% accurate. Since the average height of the ISS is around 335km, the fact that it is in space would still be given, even if the calculations were 150km off target.

While we're getting that together, why don't you provide an alternate explanation to the existence of the ISS?  

Quote from: MadDogX on June 29, 2008, 10:49:10 PM

I'm located in Germany near Braunschweig (no, I'm not german), and my sighting data is:

I've been to Brunswick. It's rather pleasant, though my favourite area of Germany remains Garmisch-Partenkirchen.

Yeah, it's pretty nice around here. Lots of beautiful countryside with clear, dark nights - perfect for spotting objects that defy the FE laws of physics. 

If the two people looking at the ISS were not too far away from each other, say 400-500km, the curvature of the Earth would not be so bad to completely throw the calculations off.

Actually over 311 miles (500km) the spherical earth would drop about 12.2 miles in height. Here's the math:



Suppose that the earth is a sphere with a radius of 3,963 miles. If you are at a point P on the earth's surface and move tangent to the surface a distance of 311 miles then you can form a right angled triangle as in the diagram.

Looking over a distance of 311 miles (500km), we can use the theorem of Pythagoras:

a² = 3,963² + 311² = 15,802,090

and when we square root that figure we get a = 3,975.18427245832

Thus your position is 3,975.18427245832 - 3,963 = 12.1842724583199 miles above the surface of the earth.

Hence after 311 miles the earth drops about 12.2 miles.

Now, I'm aware that there's involved math to more accurately calculate this sort of thing over long distances. If anyone can provide a more accurate method let me know.

My math left me with a rather shorter "drop".

I only know how to calculate the height of the "bulge" or hill between two points on Earth (RE). Lets assume that the Earth is a sphere with a radius of 6371km and a circumference of 40041,47km (mean values, taken from Wikipedia). Let's further assume that our two points are 500km away from each other.



Here's a small pic I whipped up. Sorry for the bad image quality. Anyway, what we can easily calculate is the height of the hill (h2) between two points on a spherical body. When looking at the image above, we can see that the two points on the surface and the center of the sphere create an Isosceles triangle. Using this knowledge, we can do the following (still assuming that both points are 500km apart):

Calculate angle A:

500 / 40041,47 = 0.012487 - or ~1,25% of the Earth's circumference which in degrees is:
0.012487 * 360 = 4,49532° - which is our angle A

Next, we want to calculate the height (h1) of our Isosceles triangle. This can be done with the following formula (source):

6371km * cos(A/2) = 6371km * cos(2,24766) = 6371km * 0,999230638806..... = ~6366,09834km

Now that we have h1, we can use it to calculate h2 by subtracting h1 from the radius of our sphere:

6371km - 6366,09834km = 4,90166km

So, the "hill" between two people on (RE model) Earth who are 500km apart would be almost 5km high.

This whole thing can be put into a single and pretty simple formula to calculate the "height of the curvature hill" between any two points on (RE model) Earth, assuming the distance between those points is "D":

hill height = 6371 - cos(D / 40041,47 * 180) * 6371

I know this is not directly relevant to spotting the ISS, but it may be interesting as a basis for further calculations.

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Well, it's the only way we can easily verify it, yes. And the beauty of it is that anyone can do it with a bit of team work. All we need to do is find two people willing to work together to find a common time when the ISS is visible for them, check that the given coordinates for that time are correct, and then we can do the math. This could even be done multiple times if necessary to satisfy the skeptics.

Let us know when you guys decide to get your act together and organize this experiment.

If we do and the results confirm the existence of the ISS and its claimed altitude, will you then admit that the world is indeed round?

Only if it's repeatable.

Quote from: Tom Bishop on June 29, 2008, 10:37:19 PM

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Well, it's the only way we can easily verify it, yes. And the beauty of it is that anyone can do it with a bit of team work. All we need to do is find two people willing to work together to find a common time when the ISS is visible for them, check that the given coordinates for that time are correct, and then we can do the math. This could even be done multiple times if necessary to satisfy the skeptics.

Let us know when you guys decide to get your act together and organize this experiment.

If we do and the results confirm the existence of the ISS and its claimed altitude, will you then admit that the world is indeed round?

No, they most likely won't. If a bunch of us do manage to get together and verify that the ISS is actually in a sustained orbit, the FE proponents can simply choose not to believe us - and then we are back to square one. Still, I'd like to give it a try out of pure scientific interest.

Only if it's repeatable.

The experiment is not only repeatable, but the setup is already known. If you have the means of trying it, why not give it a go?

I've already contacted an acquantance of mine who lives in southern Germany (near Stuttgart, Baden-Württemberg). With a bit of luck, I'll be able to get the it verified this Sunday.