Sunrise and sunset

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Parsifal

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Sunrise and sunset
« on: June 26, 2008, 11:46:44 PM »
A point that I've seen raised to explain the different timezones is that the sun is a spotlight that shines on only one area at once. Why, then, does it appear to rise and set at the horizon every day, from everywhere in the world? If the Earth were truly flat, sunrise and sunset could only be at the horizon when the sun was truly rising and setting - if it was already up in the sky and then started to shine on a certain part of the Earth, that part would observe the sudden appearance of it in the middle of the sky. The reverse applies to sunset.

I don't see how Flat Earth theory can adequately explain the sun's motion in the sky. It can explain sunrise and sunset, and it can also explain timezones, but I have yet to be convinced that it can explain both simultaneously.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

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MadDogX

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Re: Sunrise and sunset
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2008, 03:08:36 AM »
This is the same question that I myself asked myself, and the reason why I registered here.

According to the FAQ, the sun and moon are spotlights, and their apparrent rising and setting on the horizon is merely an optical illusion. Could someone please explain how that is supposed to work? Right now that explanation seems completely arbitrary to me, just like most of the other "explanations" provided by FE'ers. After all, every single piece of observable evidence shows that the earth is round. The distance to individual stars can be measured trigonometrically, which has proven that they are definitely not 3000km away. The curvature of the Earth's surface is easily visible from a height or when the horizon is not obstucted. There is an overwhelming amount of images and video material showing that the Earth is in fact spherical, and not only from those evil government agencies who are allegedly trying to hide the true shape of our planet from us. The spherical nature of the Earth and all other planets in the solar system, not forgetting the sun, explains logically and comprehensibly why we see what we see when we look up at the sky.

So, again, how can the rising and setting of the sun and moon possibly be explained away as an optical illusion when the most logical explanation is also the most obvious: the Earth is round. The Flat Earth theory provides no proof at all, instead resorting to the wonderful explanations of "it's an illusion" and "it's a conspiracy". Though we see no comprehensive motives for the conspiracy, no scientific proof for the so-called illusions and absolutely no logical arguments whatsoever against the widely accepted fact that the Earth is round.
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Tom Bishop

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Re: Sunrise and sunset
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2008, 08:48:30 AM »
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Though we see no comprehensive motives for the conspiracy, no scientific proof for the so-called illusions and absolutely no logical arguments whatsoever against the widely accepted fact that the Earth is round.

If its such a fact that the earth is round then you guys should be able to prove it.

Re: Sunrise and sunset
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2008, 10:14:44 AM »
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Though we see no comprehensive motives for the conspiracy, no scientific proof for the so-called illusions and absolutely no logical arguments whatsoever against the widely accepted fact that the Earth is round.

If its such a fact that the earth is round then you guys should be able to prove it.

We have, time and time again:
  • Surveying and mapmaking, aerial navigation, shipping, space travel, GPS etc. all rely on the Earth being the exact same shape that it is is in their models, or things would be out of whack.
  • Natural phenomona are elegantly explained by the RE model.
  • Photos have been taken of the Earth, and it is visibly spherical.
  • Observations at ground level show the Earth is curved (although not necasserily spherical).

You continue to ignore these proofs, claiming they are all elements of some giant (and unproven) conspiracy, or they're the result of people being stupid or gullible, or concoct some strange and poorly-concieved explanation for them.

More importantly, your own model of a FE is regularly picked apart and destroyed, and you guys just ignore this.

So how can we prove it when you just ignore the facts?

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Parsifal

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Re: Sunrise and sunset
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2008, 10:28:45 AM »
We have, time and time again:
  • Surveying and mapmaking, aerial navigation, shipping, space travel, GPS etc. all rely on the Earth being the exact same shape that it is is in their models, or things would be out of whack.
  • Natural phenomona are elegantly explained by the RE model.
  • Photos have been taken of the Earth, and it is visibly spherical.
  • Observations at ground level show the Earth is curved (although not necasserily spherical).

You continue to ignore these proofs, claiming they are all elements of some giant (and unproven) conspiracy, or they're the result of people being stupid or gullible, or concoct some strange and poorly-concieved explanation for them.

More importantly, your own model of a FE is regularly picked apart and destroyed, and you guys just ignore this.

So how can we prove it when you just ignore the facts?

  • Surveyors are either part of the conspiracy, or are paid off by the governments of various countries to keep quite about what they know. Those who don't give in are swiftly and silently assassinated. Maps are printed with false data supplied by corrupt surveyors. Aerial navigation is largely taken care of by computers, which have all been programmed to navigate based on a Flat Earth model, while revealing only what the government wants to the people using the systems. They are capable of navigating by themselves, but people are given the task of operating them so that it appears less suspicious. Same applies to shipping. Sustained space travel is not possible, and GPS is a closed system - nobody really knows how it works.
  • Examples?
  • See the FAQ.
  • No they don't. The horizon appears circular about one at the point where the land and the sky appear to meet due to perspective. There is no actual curvature of the surface.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

Re: Sunrise and sunset
« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2008, 10:31:09 AM »
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Though we see no comprehensive motives for the conspiracy, no scientific proof for the so-called illusions and absolutely no logical arguments whatsoever against the widely accepted fact that the Earth is round.

If its such a fact that the earth is round then you guys should be able to prove it.

It's proven by your inability to actually squash the theories. You simply come up with an explanation and don't accept any criticism. Just like the Foucaults pendulum issue, you simply answered it then locked any posts with followups or just stopped responding when questions about the theory arised

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Parsifal

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Re: Sunrise and sunset
« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2008, 10:36:04 AM »
It's proven by your inability to actually squash the theories.

Can you squash the theory that the Flying Spaghetti Monster exists?
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

Re: Sunrise and sunset
« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2008, 10:37:49 AM »
Before I reply to your post Robosteve, was it satire or serious?

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Parsifal

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Re: Sunrise and sunset
« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2008, 10:44:18 AM »
Before I reply to your post Robosteve, was it satire or serious?

Neither. Or a bit of both. I don't know.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

Re: Sunrise and sunset
« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2008, 10:48:39 AM »
Before I reply to your post Robosteve, was it satire or serious?

Neither. Or a bit of both. I don't know.

Then I won't bother refuting it.

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General Douchebag

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Re: Sunrise and sunset
« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2008, 11:27:19 AM »
I'm a serious pastafarian, I have the iPod skin to prove it. Now, squash my monster.
No but I'm guess your what? 90? Cause you just so darn mature </sarcasm>

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Sean

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Re: Sunrise and sunset
« Reply #11 on: June 27, 2008, 11:29:45 AM »
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Though we see no comprehensive motives for the conspiracy, no scientific proof for the so-called illusions and absolutely no logical arguments whatsoever against the widely accepted fact that the Earth is round.

If its such a fact that the earth is round then you guys should be able to prove it.


I don't think you've completely disproved it.
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Parsifal

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Re: Sunrise and sunset
« Reply #12 on: June 27, 2008, 11:31:53 AM »
If its such a fact that the earth is round then you guys should be able to prove it.


I don't think you've completely disproved it.

Not being able to disprove something is not proof of its truth. Again, can you disprove the existence of the Flying Spaghetti Monster?
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

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Sean

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Re: Sunrise and sunset
« Reply #13 on: June 27, 2008, 11:33:45 AM »
If its such a fact that the earth is round then you guys should be able to prove it.


I don't think you've completely disproved it.

Not being able to disprove something is not proof of its truth. Again, can you disprove the existence of the Flying Spaghetti Monster?

No but if I could see something that looked like a flying spaghetti monster my whole life, and there was no proof that he didn't exist, I'd have n reason not to believe it.
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Better bring a better augment, something not so stupid.

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Parsifal

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Re: Sunrise and sunset
« Reply #14 on: June 27, 2008, 11:36:59 AM »
Not being able to disprove something is not proof of its truth. Again, can you disprove the existence of the Flying Spaghetti Monster?

No but if I could see something that looked like a flying spaghetti monster my whole life, and there was no proof that he didn't exist, I'd have n reason not to believe it.

The Earth looks flat as we see it from our vantage point on the ground. You just shot yourself in the foot, sir.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

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Sean

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Re: Sunrise and sunset
« Reply #15 on: June 27, 2008, 11:39:46 AM »
What about all those "illusions"?
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Parsifal

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Re: Sunrise and sunset
« Reply #16 on: June 27, 2008, 11:48:02 AM »
What about all those "illusions"?

Be more specific.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

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Sean

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Re: Sunrise and sunset
« Reply #17 on: June 27, 2008, 11:49:19 AM »
The horizons, Sunrise/set. Things like that... Aren't those claimed to be opticle illusions.
Quote from: sokarul
Better bring a better augment, something not so stupid.

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General Douchebag

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Re: Sunrise and sunset
« Reply #18 on: June 27, 2008, 11:49:51 AM »
What's an opticle illusion?
No but I'm guess your what? 90? Cause you just so darn mature </sarcasm>

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Parsifal

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Re: Sunrise and sunset
« Reply #19 on: June 27, 2008, 11:53:25 AM »
The horizons, Sunrise/set. Things like that... Aren't those claimed to be opticle illusions.

Horizons are simply the recession of the Earth's surface into the distance.

I agree on the subject of sunrise and sunset, though. My OP has not yet been answered.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

Re: Sunrise and sunset
« Reply #20 on: June 27, 2008, 11:55:34 AM »
The horizons, Sunrise/set. Things like that... Aren't those claimed to be opticle illusions.
My OP has not yet been answered.

Tom already answered it, you most likely won't get much more out of him or any other member

Re: Sunrise and sunset
« Reply #21 on: June 27, 2008, 12:06:03 PM »
I don't see how Flat Earth theory can adequately explain the sun's motion in the sky. It can explain sunrise and sunset, and it can also explain timezones, but I have yet to be convinced that it can explain both simultaneously.

It can't explain sunrises/sunsets (TB's understanding of perspectie and refraction is flawed, and he's the only one who can come up with any kind of explanation), and it can't really explain timezones (hours of daylight decrease to zero as you go further out).
« Last Edit: June 28, 2008, 02:42:30 AM by ghazwozza »

Re: Sunrise and sunset
« Reply #22 on: June 27, 2008, 12:08:58 PM »
And This is on a bit of a side note but the area of the earth illuminated by the sun is not even close to a circle so unless the sul is kinda bell shaped the FE sun would have a hard time existing.


Don't forget that the sun would need to flip over with the change of seasons as well.
Only 2 things are infinite the universe and human stupidity, but I am not sure about the former.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Sunrise and sunset
« Reply #23 on: June 27, 2008, 02:26:04 PM »
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So how can we prove it when you just ignore the facts?

You can start by coming up with evidence or proof for the earth's rotundity which does not rely on a blind religious-like appeal to authority.

Re: Sunrise and sunset
« Reply #24 on: June 27, 2008, 07:38:39 PM »
Says the man who constantly quotes Robowtham and others without bothering to try and repeat their experiments.
Don't try to argue with an idiot.  They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Sunrise and sunset
« Reply #25 on: June 27, 2008, 08:41:55 PM »
Says the man who constantly quotes Robowtham and others without bothering to try and repeat their experiments.

I don't need to make an appeal to Rowbotham to see that the earth is flat.

Re: Sunrise and sunset
« Reply #26 on: June 27, 2008, 08:58:25 PM »
But you have yet to reproduce any of the results from his experiments.  In fact, I haven't seen any photographs from any of the FEers that prove FET.  RE has presented proof time and again that you reject for one reason or another, so why doesn't FE come forward with some solid evidence and tell us why we shouldn't just reject it?

P.S.

And before you try the whole "Burden of proof is on you" argument:

No, it's not.  RE proof is readily available from text books, internet, and other sources.  FET makes the claim that the Earth is really flat, so the burden is on FE to produce solid evidence.

Tom, seeing as you claim to be an atheist, you'd demand proof that there truly is a God, right?  What I'm asking for is much simpler:  You've said you've seen people on a beach from thirty miles away.  I ask you produce a photograph of this.  With modern equipment that shouldn't be too difficult should it?
« Last Edit: June 27, 2008, 09:02:45 PM by Logic hopeful »
Don't try to argue with an idiot.  They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Re: Sunrise and sunset
« Reply #27 on: June 27, 2008, 11:36:08 PM »
But you have yet to reproduce any of the results from his experiments.  In fact, I haven't seen any photographs from any of the FEers that prove FET.  RE has presented proof time and again that you reject for one reason or another, so why doesn't FE come forward with some solid evidence and tell us why we shouldn't just reject it?

P.S.

And before you try the whole "Burden of proof is on you" argument:

No, it's not.  RE proof is readily available from text books, internet, and other sources.  FET makes the claim that the Earth is really flat, so the burden is on FE to produce solid evidence.

Tom, seeing as you claim to be an atheist, you'd demand proof that there truly is a God, right?  What I'm asking for is much simpler:  You've said you've seen people on a beach from thirty miles away.  I ask you produce a photograph of this.  With modern equipment that shouldn't be too difficult should it?
I would love to see it also, because from my house I can not see any part of the city of avalon and it is only around 26mi away
Only 2 things are infinite the universe and human stupidity, but I am not sure about the former.

Re: Sunrise and sunset
« Reply #28 on: June 28, 2008, 01:13:28 AM »
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Though we see no comprehensive motives for the conspiracy, no scientific proof for the so-called illusions and absolutely no logical arguments whatsoever against the widely accepted fact that the Earth is round.

If its such a fact that the earth is round then you guys should be able to prove it.

I agree wholeheartedly with ghazwozza, jdoe, trig, rig navigator and others.  The roundness of the Earth has been as conclusively proven as it is possible to prove anything.  Your only response to such proof when it is presented is to accuse anyone presenting it of lying, gullibility or being part of some incredibly vast, foolish and unprovable conspiracy.  To deny the roundness of the Earth is every bit as irrational as staring straight at the Sun at high noon on a cloudless, mid-summer day and insisting that it is midnight!  Flat Earthers are prime examples of the old adage, "none are so blind as those who will not see!"
« Last Edit: June 28, 2008, 01:29:48 AM by Gunnar »

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Sunrise and sunset
« Reply #29 on: June 28, 2008, 03:29:58 PM »
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You've said you've seen people on a beach from thirty miles away.  I ask you produce a photograph of this.  With modern equipment that shouldn't be too difficult should it?

I don't have a camera mount for my model of telescope and camera. But if I come across something I'll keep the idea in mind.

Quote
I agree wholeheartedly with ghazwozza, jdoe, trig, rig navigator and others.  The roundness of the Earth has been as conclusively proven as it is possible to prove anything.

What's the simplest explanation; that man has successfully designed and built never before seen multi-trillion dollar rocket technologies from scratch to send massive payloads into space, and that NASA can do the impossible on a daily basis, explore the cosmos, and constantly wow the nation by landing a man on the moon and sending robots to mars; or is the simplest explanation that they really can't do all of that stuff and it's just a lie?
« Last Edit: June 28, 2008, 03:34:41 PM by Tom Bishop »