Perpetual motion/"free energy"

  • 301 Replies
  • 60192 Views
*

Parsifal

  • Official Member
  • 36118
  • Bendy Light specialist
Re: Perpetual motion/"free energy"
« Reply #90 on: September 06, 2008, 09:03:32 AM »
You can extract work from gravity (hydro-electric plant) but entropy will always increase overall.

Isn't gravitational potential simply an intermediate form of energy in that scenario, with the energy itself originating from the Sun?
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

?

Dr Matrix

  • 4312
  • In Soviet Russia, Matrix enters you!
Re: Perpetual motion/"free energy"
« Reply #91 on: September 06, 2008, 09:20:24 AM »
You can extract work from gravity (hydro-electric plant) but entropy will always increase overall.

Isn't gravitational potential simply an intermediate form of energy in that scenario, with the energy itself originating from the Sun?

Yes, very true, gravity itself does no work in that sense. Perhaps Hawking radiation is an example of gravitational fields doing work?
Quote from: Arthur Schopenhauer
All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.

*

Parsifal

  • Official Member
  • 36118
  • Bendy Light specialist
Re: Perpetual motion/"free energy"
« Reply #92 on: September 06, 2008, 09:32:54 AM »
Yes, very true, gravity itself does no work in that sense. Perhaps Hawking radiation is an example of gravitational fields doing work?

I'm no expert on Hawking radiation, but it certainly seems like a good example to me.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

*

cmdshft

  • The Elder Ones
  • 13149
  • swiggity swooty
Re: Perpetual motion/"free energy"
« Reply #93 on: September 06, 2008, 09:36:39 AM »
Quote from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawking_radiation
Hawking radiation is a thermal radiation with a black body spectrum predicted to be emitted by black holes due to quantum effects. Starobinsky showed him that according to the quantum mechanical uncertainty principle, rotating black holes should create and emit particles.

I disagree with Hawking radiation, as it defies relativity if it is emitting mass particles. The theory states that some particles continue accelerating away from the event horizon even though some get reabsorbed. This makes no sense to me. Anyone want to clear that up?
« Last Edit: September 06, 2008, 09:43:35 AM by Hara Taiki »

Re: Perpetual motion/"free energy"
« Reply #94 on: September 06, 2008, 10:01:19 AM »
Perpetual motion is technically not possible: things don't run by themselves. It violates the law of conservation of energy, which states that "energy can never be created or destroyed, but only conserved".

Technically impossible? Is that different from physically impossible? or actually Impossible? Technolically impossible seems to imply that if technology were to change then something technically impossible may become physically possible and actually possible. Is that not the case that occured when the Wright brothers flew? When we launched into space and put a man on the moon? You can go on to cite many other instances through out history of man where thing thought to be impossible "Technically" became actually possible because they were physically done.

To state it correctly "FREE ENERGY" is impossible, unless you want to open a can of worms and say gravity may be an exception to the Law of Conservation of Energy i.e "gravity may be a regenerative energy". That would have every one up in arms in and of itself but since no one has actually defined gravity in a compreshensive sense, and many great minds have tried, it may be that it is regenerative energy" Perpetual motion on the other hand does not equate to "FREE ENERGY" and to say that one is impossible because the other is impossible is illogical because they are not the same thing (equal).

Perpetual motion is literily motion that goes on forever, the First Law of Motion confirms perpetual motion with this definition.

Perpetual motion take to mean a machine or system that goes on forever yielding a energy output on the other hand is a skew of actual perpetual motion. You have to know which perpetual motion some one is trying to refer to. But mostly they refer to the latter. The proper way to identify the latter is perpetual motion machine it indicate you are refering to perpetual work output an not to perpetual motion. Since to say perpetual motion is impossible is to try and over through the First Law of Motion. If perpetual motion were impossible the First Law of Motion is wrong because an object in motion would not stay in motion at a constant velocity even though zero net force was applied to it.

Science, however, claims if perpetual motion (making no distinction between actual perpetual motion (First Law of Motion) and perpetual work output) were possible the laws of science would have to be wrong and much of what we know would have to be altered and not just science but mathematics too. In part science has disregarded its own Laws specifically the First Law of Motion in making that statement. The statement is demonstrately false and goes to bias in an effort to cover that fact up.  

Perpetual work output refers to a perpetual motion machine giving more energy out than is applied by some fuel source or energy source that is intentionally applied by act of man. The justification to the statement comes in the assumption that perpetual work output would constitute "FREE ENERGY" or literly "energy from nothing" which of course is a violation to the Law of Conservation of Energy. By disregarding any other possible means of developing a perpetual work output science takes a narrow minded point of view, thus biased, and rejects any plausible observance to the contrary with out fair and just consideration. In other words science is no longer objectivly seeking the truth.

Are there objections to this statement? I am sure there will be but if you are intent on making an objection I would like to point out that it shows your bias on the issue. I would suggest you consider what I say and give it fair and open thought prior to making objection. I'll make this last statement I have spent 14 months trying to prove perpetual motion (work output) is impossible, because up unitl April 2007 that was my stance as well. I can say this, it is impossible to prove it is impossible to get perpetual motion (work output) but it can be proven that it is possible and not violate one single law of science as they are written. I challenge anyone wishing to take on the defense of the statement that perpetual motion is impossible to prove that statement with scientific law. Warning I have 14 months of intensive study head start on you and a science education prior to that, and it was the science education that had me immediately defending the notion that perpetual motion (work output) was impossible. I now am forced by proper ethics in science to state other wise based on sound and reproducable observations. Care to challenge me? Or do you care to start listening to what I am saying and look at the evidence with an open mind?

An add in as food for thought :)

You can extract work from gravity (hydro-electric plant) but entropy will always increase overall.

Isn't gravitational potential simply an intermediate form of energy in that scenario, with the energy itself originating from the Sun?

Yes the energy driving the cycle of water used by a hydro-electric plant comes from the sun evaporating water that then falls at elevation and flows down hill by gravity. The energy from the sun provides the perpetual cycle, gravity provides the energy transference into usable energy output and the use of that energy output is the work done by the perpetual cycle. Take away the sun and the perpetual cycle stops.

To the comment made by matrix, if you extract energy from gravity does gravity diminish? The law of conservation of energy would tend to say yes. However gravity is a constant so if diminished how can it be a constant? If not diminished how can you extract energy from gravity with out gravity reproducing energy so it remains constant?  I'll point to the gravity assist technique used by NASA to propel space craft using the force of gravity as an example of energy transference to an object outside a closed system where the gravity of the closed system remains constant after the transference of energy.

 
« Last Edit: September 06, 2008, 10:48:54 AM by jehkque »

*

Jack

  • Administrator
  • 5179
Re: Perpetual motion/"free energy"
« Reply #95 on: September 06, 2008, 10:51:55 AM »
Technically impossible? Is that different from physically impossible? or actually Impossible? Technolically impossible seems to imply that if technology were to change then something technically impossible may become physically possible and actually possible. Is that not the case that occured when the Wright brothers flew? When we launched into space and put a man on the moon? You can go on to cite many other instances through out history of man where thing thought to be impossible "Technically" became actually possible because they were physically done.
Technically impossible as in not possible in the name of science.

To state it correctly "FREE ENERGY" is impossible, unless you want to open a can of worms and say gravity may be an exception to the Law of Conservation of Energy i.e "gravity may be a regenerative energy". That would have every one up in arms in and of itself but since no one has actually defined gravity in a compreshensive sense, and many great minds have tried, it may be that it is regenerative energy"
:o

Guess what? Gravity is a conservative force that acts on a system without any potential energy loss...

Perpetual motion on the other hand does not equate to "FREE ENERGY" and to say that one is impossible because the other is impossible is illogical because they are not the same thing (equal).
I never said perpetual motion = free energy. Rather, perpetual motion gives free energy out of nothing, which is technically not possible. End of story.

Quote
Classification

It is customary to classify perpetual motion machines according to which law of thermodynamics it attempts to violate:

   1. A perpetual motion machine of the first kind produces energy from nothing, giving the user unlimited 'free' energy. It thus violates the law of conservation of energy.
   2. A perpetual motion machine of the second kind is a machine which spontaneously converts thermal energy into mechanical work.

Perpetual motion is literily motion that goes on forever, the First Law of Motion confirms perpetual motion with this definition.
If perpetual motion were impossible the First Law of Motion is wrong because an object in motion would not stay in motion at a constant velocity even though zero net force was applied to it.
What are you talking about? Perpetual motion has nothing to do with the First Law of Motion. The First Law of Motion confirms nothing of it. You need to review the law, which states that "an object can either remain at rest or travel at constant velocity, so long it is not affected by an outside force". So, by that definition, are you telling me Perpetual motion requires no force as well?

Science, however, claims if perpetual motion (making no distinction between actual perpetual motion (First Law of Motion) and perpetual work output) were possible the laws of science would have to be wrong and much of what we know would have to be altered and not just science but mathematics too. In part science has disregarded its own Laws specifically the First Law of Motion in making that statement. The statement is demonstrately false and goes to bias in an effort to cover that fact up.  
Huh?  ???

Perpetual work output refers to a perpetual motion machine giving more energy out than is applied by some fuel source or energy source that is intentionally applied by act of man.
Uh, you've just contradicted your earlier statements.

The justification to the statement comes in the assumption that perpetual work output would constitute "FREE ENERGY" or literly "energy from nothing" which of course is a violation to the Law of Conservation of Energy.
Right.

By disregarding any other possible means of developing a perpetual work output science takes a narrow minded point of view, thus biased, and rejects any plausible observance to the contrary with out fair and just consideration. In other words science is no longer objectivly seeking the truth.
Science, unlike philosophy, is not about seeking the truth; science is about explaining our world and the universe.

Are there objections to this statement? I am sure there will be but if you are intent on making an object I would like to point out that it shows your bias on the issue. I would suggest you consider what I say and give it fair and open thought prior to making objection. I'll make this last statement I have spent 14 months trying to prove perpetual motion (work output) is impossible, because up unitl April 2007 that was my stance as well. I can say this, it is impossible to prove it is impossible to get perpetual motion (work output) but it can be proven that it is possible and not violate one single law of science as they are written. I challenge anyone wishing to take on the defense of the statement that perpetual motion is impossible to prove that statement with scientific law. Warning I have 14 months of intensive study head start on you and a science education prior to that, and it was the science education that had me immediately defending the notion that perpetual motion (work output) was impossible. I now am forced by proper ethics in science to state other wise based on sound and reproducable observations. Care to challenge me? Or do you care to start listening to what I am saying and look at the evidence with an open mind?
Are you the new 17 November?

?

Dr Matrix

  • 4312
  • In Soviet Russia, Matrix enters you!
Re: Perpetual motion/"free energy"
« Reply #96 on: September 06, 2008, 12:17:02 PM »
To the comment made by matrix, if you extract energy from gravity does gravity diminish? The law of conservation of energy would tend to say yes. However gravity is a constant so if diminished how can it be a constant? If not diminished how can you extract energy from gravity with out gravity reproducing energy so it remains constant?  I'll point to the gravity assist technique used by NASA to propel space craft using the force of gravity as an example of energy transference to an object outside a closed system where the gravity of the closed system remains constant after the transference of energy.

The 'slingshot' doesn't take energy from gravity, it uses gravitation to transfer momentum from a planet to the spacecraft, so the planet slows down just very slightly, but because it is so much more massive the spacecraft experiences a much bigger velocity boost. :)

Just to contradict my own earlier example, gravitation is generated by all mass-energy, so in the case of Hawking radiation from a black hole the 'total' mass-energy (and hence 'total' gravity) remains unchanged... The mass of the black hole decreases by the exact same mass-energy of the particle that escapes.  I guess it makes sense that gravity can't do work!
Quote from: Arthur Schopenhauer
All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.

Re: Perpetual motion/"free energy"
« Reply #97 on: September 06, 2008, 12:46:45 PM »
This is going to be fun  ;D

Technically impossible as in not possible in the name of science.

I guess you mean that it could be possible in the name of every thing other than science and I would even venture to point out that if it is not impossible what a black mark that would be to the name of science as you have so directly linked it to the name of science only that would mean that only science is wrong.

:o

Guess what? Gravity is a conservative force that acts on a system without any potential energy loss...

Thanks for the confirmation that gravity violates the Law of Conservation of Energy. Imaprts energy to an object yet in the act of doing so experiences no energy loss. Gravity provides "FREE ENERGY" to coin your phrase. Unless you reserve that gravity experiences kenetic energy loss in a transference of energy, then how is it a conservative force?


I never said perpetual motion = free energy. Rather, perpetual motion gives free energy out of nothing, which is technically not possible. End of story.

OK I'll rephrase according to your explaination

continued motion with no net force applied (perpetual motion "First Law of Motion") + energy output = FREE ENERGY in other words your defining perpetual motion as perpetual work output, hummm looks like what I have stated previously, and that by your definition of perpetual motion that would be FREE ENERGY. Is that correct?

Quote
Classification

It is customary to classify perpetual motion machines according to which law of thermodynamics it attempts to violate:

   1. A perpetual motion machine of the first kind produces energy from nothing, giving the user unlimited 'free' energy. It thus violates the law of conservation of energy.
   2. A perpetual motion machine of the second kind is a machine which spontaneously converts thermal energy into mechanical work.

Customary defined as "Accepted practice" and accepted practice is a "practice" not a "fact". Use of a practice to support something as fact is not use of supporting facts through known observances that are reproduceable in supporting evidence to a claim being fact. The fact is the First and Second Law of Thermodynamics and the Law of Conservation of Energy only say that you can not get more energy out than is applied. There is no distinction between the type of energy applied and where it derives from. The absence of that distinction means they can not identify over unity energy outputs when energy is derived from the surrounding environment and applied to the system being checked against the laws. The laws will only show if they operate at a greater than 100% total energy conversion efficiency but they will not show unity efficiency.  


What are you talking about? Perpetual motion has nothing to do with the First Law of Motion. The First Law of Motion confirms nothing of it. You need to review the law, which states that "an object can either remain at rest or travel at constant velocity, so long it is not affected by an outside force". So, by that definition, are you telling me Perpetual motion requires no force as well?

The literal term perpetual motion as I have stated it before and will state the same way many times more I am sure is "motion that goes on (continues) foerver" Newtons First of Motion "It is possible to select a set of reference frames, called inertial reference frames, observed from which a particle moves without any change in velocity if no net force acts on it." A translation for the original latin text in Lex 1 from Axiomata sive Leges Motus, Philosophiae Naturalis Principia Mathematica, by Sir Isaac Newton published in1687. Care to see the exact words as published in latin? Even as you have stated it shows continued motion unless acted upon by a non-zero net force. In the literal term of perpetual motion, yes the First Law of Motion defines perpetual motion. Where perpetual motion is defined as producing work i.e. perpetual motion + work output it says there must be a positive net force applied as work output would establish a negative net force applied to the particle (object).  

Are you missing something? Is that not clear enough? Do you have trouble in reading the words? Do you need to see the latin version? Would you understand the latin version if you saw it (i.e. can you read and understand latin)?

 
Huh?  ???

Shows your lack of knowlegdge


Uh, you've just contradicted your earlier statements.

You failed to point to the contradiction so your claim could be examined for proof of validity or discredited and proven false.

The justification to the statement comes in the assumption that perpetual work output would constitute "FREE ENERGY" or literly "energy from nothing" which of course is a violation to the Law of Conservation of Energy.
Right.

Thank you for validation (VERIFIED PROOF BY YOUR OWN ADMISSION) of the statement that the claim of science that prepetual motion would constitute "FREE ENERGY" is nothing more than an assumption and as such is not a fact! So stop stating it as if it were fact to further support a claim that perpetual motion(work output) is impossible!


Science, unlike philosophy, is not about seeking the truth; science is about explaining our world and the universe.

Science is not about seeking the truth? Maybe not in your eyes and maybe not in the eyes of all other scientists in the world. Yet I remind you in order for a fact of science to be a fact of science a theory of science has to be proven true! If science does not seek truth it can not be valid in its proofs thus science will undoubtly be false. Let's expand our world and universe with LIES and FALSE INFORMATION!!!! What a blessing that would be.  

Are there objections to this statement? I am sure there will be but if you are intent on making an object I would like to point out that it shows your bias on the issue. I would suggest you consider what I say and give it fair and open thought prior to making objection. I'll make this last statement I have spent 14 months trying to prove perpetual motion (work output) is impossible, because up unitl April 2007 that was my stance as well. I can say this, it is impossible to prove it is impossible to get perpetual motion (work output) but it can be proven that it is possible and not violate one single law of science as they are written. I challenge anyone wishing to take on the defense of the statement that perpetual motion is impossible to prove that statement with scientific law. Warning I have 14 months of intensive study head start on you and a science education prior to that, and it was the science education that had me immediately defending the notion that perpetual motion (work output) was impossible. I now am forced by proper ethics in science to state other wise based on sound and reproducable observations. Care to challenge me? Or do you care to start listening to what I am saying and look at the evidence with an open mind?
Are you the new 17 November?

No I am a person not a date on the calender.

*

cmdshft

  • The Elder Ones
  • 13149
  • swiggity swooty
Re: Perpetual motion/"free energy"
« Reply #98 on: September 06, 2008, 12:57:17 PM »
No I am a person not a date on the calender.

17 November was a member of these forums.

lurk moar; post less

Re: Perpetual motion/"free energy"
« Reply #99 on: September 06, 2008, 08:34:03 PM »
Total applied heat energy to a geothermal plant is greater than energy output, that is correct, else they would not work.

Then we agree, not sure why we're having this discussion.

Quote
However, amount of energy you supply as heat is far less than energy output, the earth provides the majority of the heat energy. You just tap that heat energy and and provide a way it can apply to the plant's energy output.

Again, we seem to have no difference of opinion here...there is a massive energy input thats being tapped.

Quote
It can be perpetual so long as the earth's core is a usable heat source.

No it cannnot.  Thats not what perpetual means. 

Quote
Pump water down, pump up hot water or get steam pressured up to surface and whala greater energy out put from turbine than pumping energy applied.

Well yeah...thats kind of what makes it a power plant...you extract more energy than you yourself put into it...the energy output is the result of consuming energy or fuel in order to spin a turbine.  Like when you start your car, you're getting more energy out of the motor than you're putting into running the fuel pump...but that ignores that you had to put gasoline into the fuel tank.  You're ignoring the massive input energy source and suggesting that we're over unity here...which we're not.  I may be mistaken, but I think it may come from that the geothermal energy isn't technically "fuel", so you're allowing yourself to cancel it out.  Using my example of the car, can you see how it is not an over unity device or no? 

Quote
I started talking about perpetual motion and over unity energy outputs. I used the solar array as an example (known observation). OK. I intend to get back to discussing perpetual motion and over unity energy outputs. It all ties in, trust me. ( I know I know the two most feared words in the english language when used in conjunction with each other "trust" and "me").

But your solar array is not over unity.  Its not putting out more energy than its getting hit with from the sun...that you yourself are consuming less than it puts out is irrelevant...it just means you have one more panel up there than you really need.

Re: Perpetual motion/"free energy"
« Reply #100 on: September 06, 2008, 08:41:23 PM »
look i'm stupid too.

Uh, ok.  There you are then.

Re: Perpetual motion/"free energy"
« Reply #101 on: September 06, 2008, 08:47:40 PM »
What about her?  She's been dead for 11 years.

*

Jack

  • Administrator
  • 5179
Re: Perpetual motion/"free energy"
« Reply #102 on: September 06, 2008, 09:08:53 PM »
I guess you mean that it could be possible in the name of every thing other than science and I would even venture to point out that if it is not impossible what a black mark that would be to the name of science as you have so directly linked it to the name of science only that would mean that only science is wrong.
No, science is proven to be right. You are proven to be wrong. Deal with it.

Thanks for the confirmation that gravity violates the Law of Conservation of Energy. Imaprts energy to an object yet in the act of doing so experiences no energy loss. Gravity provides "FREE ENERGY" to coin your phrase. Unless you reserve that gravity experiences kenetic energy loss in a transference of energy, then how is it a conservative force?
Look up the definition of a conservative force. Gravity does not violate the law of conservation of energy; in fact, it agrees with it. Come back to me when you're done.


OK I'll rephrase according to your explaination

continued motion with no net force applied (perpetual motion "First Law of Motion") + energy output = FREE ENERGY in other words your defining perpetual motion as perpetual work output, hummm looks like what I have stated previously, and that by your definition of perpetual motion that would be FREE ENERGY. Is that correct?
Nope. Perpetual motion = free energy out of nothing (energy is not conserved).


Customary defined as "Accepted practice" and accepted practice is a "practice" not a "fact". Use of a practice to support something as fact is not use of supporting facts through known observances that are reproduceable in supporting evidence to a claim being fact. The fact is the First and Second Law of Thermodynamics and the Law of Conservation of Energy only say that you can not get more energy out than is applied. There is no distinction between the type of energy applied and where it derives from. The absence of that distinction means they can not identify over unity energy outputs when energy is derived from the surrounding environment and applied to the system being checked against the laws. The laws will only show if they operate at a greater than 100% total energy conversion efficiency but they will not show unity efficiency.  
Perpetual motion is still in violation of the law, because it is creating more than it consumes, thus there are no conservations of energy in the process. Less energy in in the system-> More energy out of the system. Total violation.

The literal term perpetual motion as I have stated it before and will state the same way many times more I am sure is "motion that goes on (continues) foerver" Newtons First of Motion "It is possible to select a set of reference frames, called inertial reference frames, observed from which a particle moves without any change in velocity if no net force acts on it." A translation for the original latin text in Lex 1 from Axiomata sive Leges Motus, Philosophiae Naturalis Principia Mathematica, by Sir Isaac Newton published in1687. Care to see the exact words as published in latin? Even as you have stated it shows continued motion unless acted upon by a non-zero net force. In the literal term of perpetual motion, yes the First Law of Motion defines perpetual motion. Where perpetual motion is defined as producing work i.e. perpetual motion + work output it says there must be a positive net force applied as work output would establish a negative net force applied to the particle (object).  
If perpetual motion is defined by the First Law of Motion, then perpetual motion literally means "a motion that goes on forever at constant velocity or stays at rest as long as there are no outside unbalanced forces". That doesn't make any sense. Are you saying that this is true?

Are you missing something? Is that not clear enough? Do you have trouble in reading the words? Do you need to see the latin version? Would you understand the latin version if you saw it (i.e. can you read and understand latin)?
I understand Newton's First Law. You, on the other hand, are applying it in the wrong scenario (perpetual motion).

Shows your lack of knowlegdge
No, it shows your lack of ability to write a clear and sound paragraph. How can I understand your point if you failed to do so?


You failed to point to the contradiction so your claim could be examined for proof of validity or discredited and proven false.
Read the bold part. You mentioned the First Law of Motion defines perpetual motion, then you pointed out that perpetual motion works by the act of man. I assume your term "act of man" means "force".

Thank you for validation (VERIFIED PROOF BY YOUR OWN ADMISSION) of the statement that the claim of science that prepetual motion would constitute "FREE ENERGY" is nothing more than an assumption and as such is not a fact! So stop stating it as if it were fact to further support a claim that perpetual motion(work output) is impossible!
It is a fact that perpetual motion gives free energy by producing more than it consumes. Stop with your nonsense, please.

Science is not about seeking the truth? Maybe not in your eyes and maybe not in the eyes of all other scientists in the world. Yet I remind you in order for a fact of science to be a fact of science a theory of science has to be proven true! If science does not seek truth it can not be valid in its proofs thus science will undoubtly be false. Let's expand our world and universe with LIES and FALSE INFORMATION!!!! What a blessing that would be.  
Science != philosophy.

No I am a person not a date on the calender.
17 November was an user in these forums who wrote many lies, just like you.

Re: Perpetual motion/"free energy"
« Reply #103 on: September 06, 2008, 09:37:00 PM »
 ;D For all of you who have so whole heartly disputed what I have said here I have some sad news for you.

I have recieved tonight independent confirmation on my theory through a reproducable test appratus and reproducable observation. LOL I am LOVING IT! Every thing I have said revolves around the simple fact that you can achieve electricity from gravity induced movements of water in an electrolysis device and that energy will apply to the continuation of electrolysis. In so doing you can achieve over unity chemical potential in the amount of hydrogen released by electolysis.

Smile I have at least one confirmation that electrical energy can be generated during the process of electrolysis in the solution and that electrical energy applies to furthering electrolysis. Just a couple more others either with an open mind looking to test the theory or attempting to disprove it and finding the same observation is all that is needed to lock down what I say is fact. Its not so hard to reproduce the apparatus and conduct the experiment. The hard part has been pissing someone off enough to make them want to disprove what I say or having them agree to do it with an open mind to find out what I say may or may not be true.

1 reproducable observation down, a couple more to go. Any takers on doing the experiment?

Probably not on the takers to do the experimentation. Thats OK I will send the information to Dr. Niebur at that National Science Foundation on monday for review and see if they can point me to any more research facilities that can take on the experiement. After all it is no longer just me saying this any more, I have one independent test giving one independent confirmation. GOTTA LOVE BEING RIGHT!!!!!! You all are so wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D :P

*

TheEngineer

  • Planar Moderator
  • 15483
  • GPS does not require satellites.
Re: Perpetual motion/"free energy"
« Reply #104 on: September 06, 2008, 11:04:06 PM »
I disagree with Hawking radiation, as it defies relativity if it is emitting mass particles. The theory states that some particles continue accelerating away from the event horizon even though some get reabsorbed. This makes no sense to me. Anyone want to clear that up?
The basis for Hawking Radiation is that space can temporarily borrow energy from the universe and then give it right back.  Empty space borrows energy to produce particle/anti particle pairs.  These particles then collide, annihilating each other, and in the process giving the energy back to the universe.  This is happening everywhere, all the time. 

Now imagine that these two particles are created straddling the event horizon of a black hole.  One particle is trapped by the gravitational field of the black hole while the other particle is free to move away from the black hole.  The problem lies in that the energy that was borrowed from the universe will not be paid back, as the two particles won't annihilate each other.  This leaves an energy imbalance, which the black hole must pay the price for in reducing its energy, thereby, 'evaporating'.


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
        -- Bob Hudson

?

Dr Matrix

  • 4312
  • In Soviet Russia, Matrix enters you!
Re: Perpetual motion/"free energy"
« Reply #105 on: September 07, 2008, 04:26:03 AM »
GOTTA LOVE BEING RIGHT!!!!!! You all are so wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D :P

I look forward to your infinite energy catastrophe - just please try to be in another Solar System when you scale up your little apparatus. Oh, wait, that's right, over unity energy production is impossible so it doesn't matter anyway.

Scratch that, my bad. ::)
Quote from: Arthur Schopenhauer
All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.

*

Raist

  • The Elder Ones
  • 30590
  • The cat in the Matrix
Re: Perpetual motion/"free energy"
« Reply #106 on: September 07, 2008, 08:57:10 AM »
;D For all of you who have so whole heartly disputed what I have said here I have some sad news for you.

I have recieved tonight independent confirmation on my theory through a reproducable test appratus and reproducable observation. LOL I am LOVING IT! Every thing I have said revolves around the simple fact that you can achieve electricity from gravity induced movements of water in an electrolysis device and that energy will apply to the continuation of electrolysis. In so doing you can achieve over unity chemical potential in the amount of hydrogen released by electolysis.

Smile I have at least one confirmation that electrical energy can be generated during the process of electrolysis in the solution and that electrical energy applies to furthering electrolysis. Just a couple more others either with an open mind looking to test the theory or attempting to disprove it and finding the same observation is all that is needed to lock down what I say is fact. Its not so hard to reproduce the apparatus and conduct the experiment. The hard part has been pissing someone off enough to make them want to disprove what I say or having them agree to do it with an open mind to find out what I say may or may not be true.

1 reproducable observation down, a couple more to go. Any takers on doing the experiment?

Probably not on the takers to do the experimentation. Thats OK I will send the information to Dr. Niebur at that National Science Foundation on monday for review and see if they can point me to any more research facilities that can take on the experiement. After all it is no longer just me saying this any more, I have one independent test giving one independent confirmation. GOTTA LOVE BEING RIGHT!!!!!! You all are so wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D :P
Fail.

?

MrKappa

  • 448
  • Math abstracts reality... it does not create it...
Re: Perpetual motion/"free energy"
« Reply #107 on: September 07, 2008, 09:47:40 AM »
Quote from: Raist
Fail.

What exactly did he fail at? I know very little of what you post... but for the most part it would seem you've never done anything but rehash popular literature and discourage people... have you proven the experiment to be wrong? Then please do not voice your opinion unless you have something half intelligent to offer...

I apologize for trolling... but I have a hard time listening to crackpot scientific zelaots with all the answers... who offer no answers...

Especially on the flat earth forums... really... go tell people they fail in a venue filled with other doctrine preachers...

In other words... if you would be so kind to offer your reason... I might stop voicing my opinion as well and stick to things that matter... like learning a thing or two...
« Last Edit: September 07, 2008, 09:51:14 AM by MrKappa »

*

Raist

  • The Elder Ones
  • 30590
  • The cat in the Matrix
Re: Perpetual motion/"free energy"
« Reply #108 on: September 07, 2008, 02:51:53 PM »
Quote from: Raist
Fail.

What exactly did he fail at? I know very little of what you post... but for the most part it would seem you've never done anything but rehash popular literature and discourage people... have you proven the experiment to be wrong? Then please do not voice your opinion unless you have something half intelligent to offer...

I apologize for trolling... but I have a hard time listening to crackpot scientific zelaots with all the answers... who offer no answers...

Especially on the flat earth forums... really... go tell people they fail in a venue filled with other doctrine preachers...

In other words... if you would be so kind to offer your reason... I might stop voicing my opinion as well and stick to things that matter... like learning a thing or two...
I'm sorry. I'll try to post untrue things like you.

I have no urge to correct someone that either is to oblivious to understand, or trolling and just begging for responses. It is not my job to feed trolls. Anyone with a valid question gets answered to the best of my ability. I enjoy helping people learn. Someone that comes here, doesn't understand the discussion, then "disproves" what we say doesn't deserve an answer. Then he says he was trolling and he can back up everything he said. I feel no need to conduct his "experiment." If he has tested this and had it peer reviewed, why is he releasing it on the internet? The whole thing is ridiculous, and you are simply thick enough to think I am the narrow minded one.

?

MrKappa

  • 448
  • Math abstracts reality... it does not create it...
Re: Perpetual motion/"free energy"
« Reply #109 on: September 07, 2008, 07:43:46 PM »
Quote from: Raist
I'm sorry. I'll try to post untrue things like you.

Sir... if you feel that something I say is untrue I expect you to correct me... I have no pride to defend... I'm here to learn... If you can't be here to learn or educate... don't be here... contribute your knowledge... telling somebody they fail not only makes you look like an ass... but both parties walk away none the wiser...
« Last Edit: September 07, 2008, 07:45:30 PM by MrKappa »

*

Raist

  • The Elder Ones
  • 30590
  • The cat in the Matrix
Re: Perpetual motion/"free energy"
« Reply #110 on: September 07, 2008, 08:00:57 PM »
Quote from: Raist
I'm sorry. I'll try to post untrue things like you.

Sir... if you feel that something I say is untrue I expect you to correct me... I have no pride to defend... I'm here to learn... If you can't be here to learn or educate... don't be here... contribute your knowledge... telling somebody they fail not only makes you look like an ass... but both parties walk away none the wiser...
ok. ignore the rest of my post. I am done contributing to people that do not wish to better themselves. He was here to brag about something awesome he knew about. My correcting him, would only lead to him smiling down on my lack of understanding. People coming here that wish to learn are few and far between. When I see one I help them in any was I can. Look up things for them, try and help them understand, because the sum total of what we know is who we are. Why not better ourselves?

Re: Perpetual motion/"free energy"
« Reply #111 on: September 07, 2008, 08:32:51 PM »
FAIL????? Hardly, it was not for me that I began the study that has given me the ability to know these things. It was for all of you that I did these things, not for my glory, or my pride, or my profit but to benefit my fellow man. Yet almost all of my fellow man wishes to dispise me and condem me and mock me and doubt me and ridiculing me. Requiring me to go above and beyond any reasonable expection for extrodinary proof. Refusing to even check my claim with an open mind and test them independently trying to reporduce the result, the way science should properly act and examine new ideas and new claims. When I show proof it is rejected with out examination, when I show proof of my proof its rejected with out examination. Now I have independent confirmation which I did not ask for I happened to find it, and the person making the observation does not even know their observation is the exact observation I needed to be independently varified. I said I was submitting the information to the National Science Foundation and they have been saying I need independent verification of my claims. I have that now and yet I am still mocked and condemed and doubted and ridiculed.      ;D ;D ;D ;D

How about you scientists or side line scientists or non-scientists trying to talk like scientists do you wish to challenge me? If so then answer some questions. I will attempt to keep them short since you dislike walls of text.

Question 1: It is known you can convert the kenetic energy of falling water into electricity correct?

If you answer yes, and you should.

Question 2: The technologies currently known to convert the kenetic energy of falling water requires a water cycle that is driven by the sun correct?

I think we have already covered these things but I am getting you back into the thought. So lets hear the answer from all those that want to pop and say I am wrong! I am really going to love this, really I am. So come on all you disbelievers speak up and give your answers. If your not going to answer all the questions as they are posted then stay out of the discussion, and accept your wrong. Yep I said that if you keep quiet then your admitting your wrong. If you think I am wrong then stand up and be counted and make your case that I am wrong, if you can. I promise you though you will have a very hard time proving me wrong so come on let's draw the line! Those who believe over unity and perpetual motion is possible but can not prove it on my side and those that believe over unity and perpetual motion is impossible on the other side. It will not bother me if I am alone, but unless you absolutely believe you can prove me wrong I would suggest you stay out of this cause I will discrace you.  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Come on, the battle lines are drawn and I am armed to the teeth with facts and prepared to do battle. Time to grind those that speak against me to shame and and rip the facade of the the false science they advocate to shreads. I am no longer trying to convience people to listen to what I have to say trying to benefit them. I am here to do battle against those who say lies in the name of truth that is science.  Battle against those that refuse to throughly examine what I say before condeming it. Battle against those that state false assumptions and defend them as the truth. Battle against them that make attempts to silence a man who is only trying to expose the truth for the benefit of his fellow man.

That great quality that science should be seeking in ernest rather than trying to keep the truth from being said and shown and understood for the benefit and advancement of mankind. So come on you blind followers of the blind, it's time for you to be knocked from the pillar you have falsely placed yourselves on and fall face first into the ditch of shame and discrace!!!!!!!!!!! I shall show no mercy upon you as you do not deserve it if you continue as you have after this warning. I am a humble servent armed with truth and I am waiting. :)

 
« Last Edit: September 07, 2008, 08:44:17 PM by jehkque »

*

Euclid

  • 943
Re: Perpetual motion/"free energy"
« Reply #112 on: September 07, 2008, 08:46:58 PM »
Please, no one likes to read long posts with long paragraphs.  Write clear, concise sentences and keep your posts short.  Address one point at a time.  Try to keep the combative and boastful language out.  Do this and your ideas will be received much more respectfully.
Quote from: Roundy the Truthinessist
Yes, thanks to the tireless efforts of Euclid and a few other mathematically-inclined members, electromagnetic acceleration is fast moving into the forefront of FE research.
8)

*

Raist

  • The Elder Ones
  • 30590
  • The cat in the Matrix
Re: Perpetual motion/"free energy"
« Reply #113 on: September 07, 2008, 09:49:52 PM »
FAIL????? Hardly, it was not for me that I began the study that has given me the ability to know these things. It was for all of you that I did these things, not for my glory, or my pride, or my profit but to benefit my fellow man. Yet almost all of my fellow man wishes to dispise me and condem me and mock me and doubt me and ridiculing me. Requiring me to go above and beyond any reasonable expection for extrodinary proof. Refusing to even check my claim with an open mind and test them independently trying to reporduce the result, the way science should properly act and examine new ideas and new claims. When I show proof it is rejected with out examination, when I show proof of my proof its rejected with out examination. Now I have independent confirmation which I did not ask for I happened to find it, and the person making the observation does not even know their observation is the exact observation I needed to be independently varified. I said I was submitting the information to the National Science Foundation and they have been saying I need independent verification of my claims. I have that now and yet I am still mocked and condemed and doubted and ridiculed.      ;D ;D ;D ;D

How about you scientists or side line scientists or non-scientists trying to talk like scientists do you wish to challenge me? If so then answer some questions. I will attempt to keep them short since you dislike walls of text.

Question 1: It is known you can convert the kenetic energy of falling water into electricity correct?

If you answer yes, and you should.

Question 2: The technologies currently known to convert the kenetic energy of falling water requires a water cycle that is driven by the sun correct?

I think we have already covered these things but I am getting you back into the thought. So lets hear the answer from all those that want to pop and say I am wrong! I am really going to love this, really I am. So come on all you disbelievers speak up and give your answers. If your not going to answer all the questions as they are posted then stay out of the discussion, and accept your wrong. Yep I said that if you keep quiet then your admitting your wrong. If you think I am wrong then stand up and be counted and make your case that I am wrong, if you can. I promise you though you will have a very hard time proving me wrong so come on let's draw the line! Those who believe over unity and perpetual motion is possible but can not prove it on my side and those that believe over unity and perpetual motion is impossible on the other side. It will not bother me if I am alone, but unless you absolutely believe you can prove me wrong I would suggest you stay out of this cause I will discrace you.  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Come on, the battle lines are drawn and I am armed to the teeth with facts and prepared to do battle. Time to grind those that speak against me to shame and and rip the facade of the the false science they advocate to shreads. I am no longer trying to convience people to listen to what I have to say trying to benefit them. I am here to do battle against those who say lies in the name of truth that is science.  Battle against those that refuse to throughly examine what I say before condeming it. Battle against those that state false assumptions and defend them as the truth. Battle against them that make attempts to silence a man who is only trying to expose the truth for the benefit of his fellow man.

That great quality that science should be seeking in ernest rather than trying to keep the truth from being said and shown and understood for the benefit and advancement of mankind. So come on you blind followers of the blind, it's time for you to be knocked from the pillar you have falsely placed yourselves on and fall face first into the ditch of shame and discrace!!!!!!!!!!! I shall show no mercy upon you as you do not deserve it if you continue as you have after this warning. I am a humble servent armed with truth and I am waiting. :)

 
Yes the kinetic energy of falling water can be used to create electricity and, this process uses the sun's energy. The sun's total energy is finite, this process will one day end. So how is this an example of free energy (it comes from a source), or how is it an example of perpetual motion (it will stop when the sun runs out of energy (destroys the earth)).


edit: your grammar and spelling are horrible, please do not brag about your intelligence and then speak like a fifth grader.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2008, 09:51:31 PM by Raist »

?

Dr Matrix

  • 4312
  • In Soviet Russia, Matrix enters you!
Re: Perpetual motion/"free energy"
« Reply #114 on: September 08, 2008, 01:01:42 AM »

Come on, the battle lines are drawn and I am armed to the teeth with facts and prepared to do battle. Time to grind those that speak against me to shame and and rip the facade of the the false science they advocate to shreads. I am no longer trying to convience people to listen to what I have to say trying to benefit them. I am here to do battle against those who say lies in the name of truth that is science.  Battle against those that refuse to throughly examine what I say before condeming it. Battle against those that state false assumptions and defend them as the truth. Battle against them that make attempts to silence a man who is only trying to expose the truth for the benefit of his fellow man.

That great quality that science should be seeking in ernest rather than trying to keep the truth from being said and shown and understood for the benefit and advancement of mankind. So come on you blind followers of the blind, it's time for you to be knocked from the pillar you have falsely placed yourselves on and fall face first into the ditch of shame and discrace!!!!!!!!!!! I shall show no mercy upon you as you do not deserve it if you continue as you have after this warning. I am a humble servent armed with truth and I am waiting. :)

OK, look, draw up a schematic of your experiment, showing where the input energy is, where the output energy is and the steps required to go from one to the other.  That should highlight where the points of contention are.  I'm not willing to discuss this until there is a post that has a concise description and diagram of the experiment, since otherwise it just degenerates into "Oh well I'm not telling you what's in the magic box because you'll steal it" bullshit that nearly every other 'perpetual motion'/'zero point energy'/whatever maker comes out with.
Quote from: Arthur Schopenhauer
All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.

Re: Perpetual motion/"free energy"
« Reply #115 on: September 08, 2008, 05:43:34 AM »
Every thing I have said revolves around the simple fact that you can achieve electricity from gravity induced movements of water in an electrolysis device and that energy will apply to the continuation of electrolysis. In so doing you can achieve over unity chemical potential in the amount of hydrogen released by electolysis.

Every post I read by you referred to the usage of geothermal energy and PV arrays...didn't see anything in there about electrolysis of water.

Quote
I have recieved tonight independent confirmation on my theory through a reproducable test appratus and reproducable observation. LOL I am LOVING IT!

I'm game and have no problems being wrong...happens to everyone.  Post up your proof, apparatus, testing methodology and whatever other pertinent information you wish to provide and maybe others here can test it.  If I test it I will provide the truthful results that I get.  If I can show that you have invented a unity or beyond unity energy production device than I would be happy to bow to your wisdom, but if it doesn't pan out then thats that. 

Quote
I have at least one confirmation that electrical energy can be generated during the process of electrolysis in the solution and that electrical energy applies to furthering electrolysis.

What you have described in the above sentence seems to be 180 out from everything else you have discussed in this thread, but regardless I'm willing to participate.

Quote
Question 1: It is known you can convert the kenetic energy of falling water into electricity correct?

Yes.

Quote
Question 2: The technologies currently known to convert the kenetic energy of falling water requires a water cycle that is driven by the sun correct?

Also yes, water runs into a lake or resivour, goes through channels (typically in a dam) that have turbines in them, turbines spin and make electricity, water goes out to a river.  Water eventually gets evaporated and cycles all over the planet in the form of rain and snow...eventually the headwaters that fill the lake where the dam is get some of that rain or snow and the process repeats.  Can we all agree on that as being more or less what you mean before going any further?

Quote
Battle against those that refuse to throughly examine what I say before condeming it.

Thus far you have said nothing in this thread that can be examined...you've just spouted that power generation systems (possibly all) that don't use combustible fuel are over unity for production, so long as you ignore the energy input side of things.  How about you put up something we can actually examine and discuss and not just vague references to different power technologies and Newton's First Law of motion?

I'm willing to examine your experiment and possibly participate, but remain skeptical.

Re: Perpetual motion/"free energy"
« Reply #116 on: September 08, 2008, 06:56:22 AM »
I admit my english skills are less than perfect. I deal with it, you can deal with it. If you wish to dish on me because of english, then do so on english matters. But to dish on someone for english matters does not mean you can dish on them for science matters, non-related subjects. If you do not understand what I say then ask for a rephrasing or make questions to better understand intent. That is called communication, so the two peole engaged in a conversation (discussion) come to the same understanding of what is being said by each other. That does not say they would agree or disagree with the points made by the other, it just means they understand exactly what each other is saying so agreement or disagreement is based on the understood points.

Question 1: Answers are yes, as posted. Question 2: Answers are yes, as posted.

Question 3: When a gas is released under the surface of a liquid in a gravity enviroment, it will rise to the surface of the liquid or go into solution with the liquid?

Assuming your answer to be yes.

Question 4: Does that rising gas impart energy to the liquid and make it move (lift, move sideways, fall) as the gas rises?

Assuming your answer to be yes.

Question 5: The energy imparted to the gas that provides the lifting of liquid is transfered by gravity to the gas correct?

Assuming your answer to be yes.

Question 6: Gravational acceleration is constant and the energy imparted to the gas is constantly applied, correct?

Assuming your answer to be yes.

Question 7: Until the gas reaches the surface of the liquid and escapes to the environment above the liquid the rising gas will constantly apply energy to the liquid causing it to move (lift, move sideways, fall) correct?

Assuming your answer to be yes.

In summation: If the answer to yes to all of these questions (3-7), a lift against the force of gravity can be acomplished by the force of gravity when a gas is released under the surface of a liquid in a gravity environment. The effect is the liquid will come to rest below the gas after the gas transverses the liquid from the point of release upward (away from the center of gravity) to the surface of the liquid where it escapes to the environment above the liquid allowing the liquid to regain its rest position.

Question 8: Would you agree with the summation?

   


 
« Last Edit: September 08, 2008, 07:14:04 AM by jehkque »

?

Dr Matrix

  • 4312
  • In Soviet Russia, Matrix enters you!
Re: Perpetual motion/"free energy"
« Reply #117 on: September 08, 2008, 07:41:34 AM »
On your other comment:


Come on, the battle lines are drawn and I am armed to the teeth with facts and prepared to do battle. Time to grind those that speak against me to shame and and rip the facade of the the false science they advocate to shreads. I am no longer trying to convience people to listen to what I have to say trying to benefit them. I am here to do battle against those who say lies in the name of truth that is science.  Battle against those that refuse to throughly examine what I say before condeming it. Battle against those that state false assumptions and defend them as the truth. Battle against them that make attempts to silence a man who is only trying to expose the truth for the benefit of his fellow man.

That great quality that science should be seeking in ernest rather than trying to keep the truth from being said and shown and understood for the benefit and advancement of mankind. So come on you blind followers of the blind, it's time for you to be knocked from the pillar you have falsely placed yourselves on and fall face first into the ditch of shame and discrace!!!!!!!!!!! I shall show no mercy upon you as you do not deserve it if you continue as you have after this warning. I am a humble servent armed with truth and I am waiting. :)

OK, look, draw up a schematic of your experiment, showing where the input energy is, where the output energy is and the steps required to go from one to the other.  That should highlight where the points of contention are.  I'm not willing to discuss this until there is a post that has a concise description and diagram of the experiment, since otherwise it just degenerates into "Oh well I'm not telling you what's in the magic box because you'll steal it" bullshit that nearly every other 'perpetual motion'/'zero point energy'/whatever maker comes out with.
Quote from: Arthur Schopenhauer
All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.

*

Wendy

  • 18492
  • I laugh cus you fake
Re: Perpetual motion/"free energy"
« Reply #118 on: September 08, 2008, 07:54:49 AM »
Quote
I am here to do battle against those who say lies in the name of truth that is science.

Sounds more like something religious to me. And to question number 8: No, I would not really agree, because gravity as a force doesn't exist. The effect you speak of is caused by the gravitational wave that is caused by the objec upon which the site for your hypothetical experiment resides, preferrably the earth.
Here's an explanation for ya. Lurk moar. Every single point you brought up has been posted, reposted, debated and debunked. There is a search function on this forum, and it is very easy to use.

Re: Perpetual motion/"free energy"
« Reply #119 on: September 08, 2008, 08:32:59 AM »
3 - I believe the bulk of the gas will rise to the surface, but the answer does depend on the liquid and the gas involved.  Some liquids may or may not readily absorb a certain amount of gas.  I'm no chemist so I cannot conclusively answer this question.

4 - If the gas rises to the top of the liquid then I would say this answer is yes.

5 - I would also say yes to this.

6 - Yes gravitiation is a constant, but IIRC the amount of force the air bubble would apply to the liquid is proportional to the density delta between the gas and liquid...thus I think more energy would be applied by the gas at higher liquid densities.

7 - I believe also yes, but the gas may not apply a constant force at all depths of the liquid due to decreasing density.

8 - I agree with your summary.  Gas released into a liquid below its surface will tend to rise towards the portion of the liquid that has the least density, typically the surface of the liquid.

At this point I'm guessing that your idea revolves around either harnessing the rising gas or the falling liquid to generate electricity in some fashion.  I am eager to see where the energy comes from to generate the gas and move it to the bottom of the liquid.