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Earth satellites are impossible

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tom89

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Re: Earth satellites are impossible
« Reply #120 on: May 29, 2008, 11:28:26 PM »
Suedolites and Stratalites would need a constant supply of fuel and thrust to stay at a constant distance above earth.... that is impossible
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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Earth satellites are impossible
« Reply #121 on: May 29, 2008, 11:28:34 PM »
Quote from: TheEngineer on May 29, 2008, 11:18:28 PM
Quote from: WardoggKC130FE on May 29, 2008, 11:12:49 PM
Ok Engy your simple "no" to the bullet one is confusing.  What happens when I shoot a bullet straight up in the air?
It accelerates as the gas from the propellant expands.  Once it leaves the barrel, it stops accelerating (neglecting air resistance, because that will probably blow your mind).  It continues on at a constant speed until the FE catches up to it.

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And if the force of gravity in RET is exactly the same as the force applied by an accelerating flat earth why wouldnt the fuel required be exactly the same between the two?

No matter how fast you go, you can never outrun the accelerating FE.

I understand air resistance.  Im a flight engineer.  I know all about drag.  But anyway let me see if I got this straight.  A .45 cal bullet leaves the barrel at 900 feet per second, and your saying it stays at that speed(never slowing) until the earth catches it?  That doesnt make sense, the bullet is already traveling at the same speed as the earth (9.8m/s^2) and then it leaves the barrel it is now traveling at 9.8m/s^2 + 900 feet per second.  So if it never slows down how does the earth catch it?

I'm not debating whether or not you can "outrun" the accelerating FE.  All I am saying is the same amount of fuel would be required to reach an altitude of 3000 miles in FET as it would in RET.
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Ski

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Re: Earth satellites are impossible
« Reply #122 on: May 29, 2008, 11:31:16 PM »
Quote from: tom89 on May 29, 2008, 11:28:26 PM
Suedolites and Stratalites would need a constant supply of fuel and thrust to stay at a constant distance above earth.... that is impossible

How much upward thrust does a boat need to stay on the surface again? How about a submarine maintaining a certain depth?
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lived_eht_asan

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Re: Earth satellites are impossible
« Reply #123 on: May 29, 2008, 11:31:40 PM »
Quote from: WardoggKC130FE on May 29, 2008, 11:28:34 PM
Im a flight engineer.

I am NOT riding a plane you were involved with.
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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Earth satellites are impossible
« Reply #124 on: May 29, 2008, 11:32:51 PM »
4500 flight hours and all my airplanes have made successful landings.
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Ski

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Re: Earth satellites are impossible
« Reply #125 on: May 29, 2008, 11:34:04 PM »
Quote from: WardoggKC130FE on May 29, 2008, 11:28:34 PM
I understand air resistance.  Im a flight engineer.  I know all about drag.  But anyway let me see if I got this straight.  A .45 cal bullet leaves the barrel at 900 feet per second, and your saying it stays at that speed(never slowing) until the earth catches it?  That doesnt make sense, the bullet is already traveling at the same speed as the earth (9.8m/s^2) and then it leaves the barrel it is now traveling at 9.8m/s^2 + 900 feet per second.  So if it never slows down how does the earth catch it?

Quote from: TheEngineer on May 29, 2008, 11:26:55 PM
The earth is not moving at 9.8m/s, it is accelerating at 9.8m/s^2.

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lived_eht_asan

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Re: Earth satellites are impossible
« Reply #126 on: May 29, 2008, 11:34:21 PM »
Quote from: WardoggKC130FE on May 29, 2008, 11:28:34 PM
That doesnt make sense, the bullet is already traveling at the same speed as the earth (9.8m/s^2) and then it leaves the barrel it is now traveling at 9.8m/s^2 + 900 feet per second.  So if it never slows down how does the earth catch it?

Just to be clear... you do understand the difference between acceleration and velocity, don't you? ???
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Ski

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Re: Earth satellites are impossible
« Reply #127 on: May 29, 2008, 11:34:52 PM »
Quote from: WardoggKC130FE on May 29, 2008, 11:32:51 PM
4500 flight hours and all my airplanes have made successful landings.

But there were at least a few close calls, right ;)

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TheEngineer

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Re: Earth satellites are impossible
« Reply #128 on: May 29, 2008, 11:35:40 PM »
Quote from: WardoggKC130FE on May 29, 2008, 11:28:34 PM
A .45 cal bullet leaves the barrel at 900 feet per second, and your saying it stays at that speed(never slowing) until the earth catches it?
Right.

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  That doesnt make sense, the bullet is already traveling at the same speed as the earth (9.8m/s^2)
That is not a speed.

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and then it leaves the barrel it is now traveling at 9.8m/s^2 + 900 feet per second.
How do you add m/s^2 and f/s?

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  So if it never slows down how does the earth catch it?
Because the earth is accelerating!

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All I am saying is the same amount of fuel would be required to reach an altitude of 3000 miles in FET as it would in RET.
I'm saying it would not.
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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Earth satellites are impossible
« Reply #129 on: May 29, 2008, 11:38:33 PM »
Quote from: lived_eht_asan on May 29, 2008, 11:34:21 PM
Quote from: WardoggKC130FE on May 29, 2008, 11:28:34 PM
That doesnt make sense, the bullet is already traveling at the same speed as the earth (9.8m/s^2) and then it leaves the barrel it is now traveling at 9.8m/s^2 + 900 feet per second.  So if it never slows down how does the earth catch it?

Just to be clear... you do understand the difference between acceleration and velocity, don't you? ???

I guess not.
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TheEngineer

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Re: Earth satellites are impossible
« Reply #130 on: May 29, 2008, 11:41:01 PM »
I'll say.
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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Earth satellites are impossible
« Reply #131 on: May 29, 2008, 11:42:39 PM »
Ok so accelerating and velocity are not the same thing.  Basically I worded the explanation wrong.


A bullet accelerates out of a barrel at 900 fps and then never slows why does the earth eventually meet up with it.  It reaches escape velocity long enough to gain altitude and Engy says it never slows.   ???
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lived_eht_asan

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Re: Earth satellites are impossible
« Reply #132 on: May 29, 2008, 11:44:39 PM »
Quote from: Ski on May 29, 2008, 11:34:52 PM
Quote from: WardoggKC130FE on May 29, 2008, 11:32:51 PM
4500 flight hours and all my airplanes have made successful landings.

But there were at least a few close calls, right ;)


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TheEngineer

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Re: Earth satellites are impossible
« Reply #133 on: May 29, 2008, 11:46:16 PM »
Quote from: WardoggKC130FE on May 29, 2008, 11:42:39 PM
A bullet accelerates out of a barrel at 900 fps
That's not an acceleration.

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and then never slows why does the earth eventually meet up with it.
Because the earth is F'ing accelerating!
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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Earth satellites are impossible
« Reply #134 on: May 29, 2008, 11:50:13 PM »
Quote from: lived_eht_asan on May 29, 2008, 11:44:39 PM
Quote from: Ski on May 29, 2008, 11:34:52 PM
Quote from: WardoggKC130FE on May 29, 2008, 11:32:51 PM
4500 flight hours and all my airplanes have made successful landings.

But there were at least a few close calls, right ;)




Well that depends on what you call close calls.  The only time when I was really nervous is when the left side gear tried to collapse on touch down.  Oh and there was the brake fire I had once. But that one was on the ground so it doesnt really count to begin with.  And neither were my fault.  The brake fire was actually the pilots fault and the other was mechanical failure.
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lived_eht_asan

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Re: Earth satellites are impossible
« Reply #135 on: May 29, 2008, 11:54:03 PM »
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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Earth satellites are impossible
« Reply #136 on: May 29, 2008, 11:55:32 PM »
Quote from: lived_eht_asan on May 29, 2008, 11:54:03 PM
Quote from: lived_eht_asan on May 29, 2008, 11:31:40 PM
Quote from: WardoggKC130FE on May 29, 2008, 11:28:34 PM
Im a flight engineer.

I am NOT riding a plane you were involved with.

Well unless you are in or join the United States Marine Corps you wont have to.
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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Earth satellites are impossible
« Reply #137 on: May 29, 2008, 11:56:48 PM »
Quote from: TheEngineer on May 29, 2008, 11:46:16 PM
Quote from: WardoggKC130FE on May 29, 2008, 11:42:39 PM
A bullet accelerates out of a barrel at 900 fps
That's not an acceleration.

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and then never slows why does the earth eventually meet up with it.
Because the earth is F'ing accelerating!


Holy shit!! I FINALLY GET THIS.  Wow.  I understand your theory now.  No, seriously, for whatever reason I didnt get it.  Now I understand why the FE'ers say you cant launch a rocket.  Sorry guys I've been dense. 

Seriously I get it now. 

But what about in the horizontal.  Why doesnt a bullet fall straight to the ground when fired horizontally.  Wouldnt the acceleration of the earth immediately catch up to it considering its only 5 ft off the ground?
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lived_eht_asan

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Re: Earth satellites are impossible
« Reply #138 on: May 29, 2008, 11:58:34 PM »
rules of engagement: 

lose x men per day.  end up short crew and lose x * y men per day.
draft defective flight engineers, causing you to lose z extra men per day.

x * y > z.

bingo, you were hired.
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TheEngineer

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Re: Earth satellites are impossible
« Reply #139 on: May 29, 2008, 11:58:35 PM »
Quote from: WardoggKC130FE on May 29, 2008, 11:56:48 PM
Why doesnt a bullet fall straight to the ground when fired horizontally.  Wouldnt the acceleration of the earth immediately catch up to it considering its only 5 ft off the ground?
Holy shit.  Please, tell me you are joking.
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lived_eht_asan

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Re: Earth satellites are impossible
« Reply #140 on: May 30, 2008, 12:00:12 AM »
I've seen a lot of threads full of comedy win now.

But this one.... its almost as good as spinning earth gravity dude.
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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Earth satellites are impossible
« Reply #141 on: May 30, 2008, 12:01:04 AM »
No because actually this is the basis of orbiting.  I just told you I finally realize why you cant launch a rocket in FET.  Im trying to understand.  What about horizontally?  What keeps a bullet in the air before the earth accelerates up to it?
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TheEngineer

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Re: Earth satellites are impossible
« Reply #142 on: May 30, 2008, 12:02:17 AM »
Its upwards velocity.
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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Earth satellites are impossible
« Reply #143 on: May 30, 2008, 12:05:38 AM »
But its upward velocity is extremely minimal compared to its distance traveled horizontally.
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TheEngineer

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Re: Earth satellites are impossible
« Reply #144 on: May 30, 2008, 12:07:39 AM »
Now you are comparing velocity to distance?  Good Lord.

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lived_eht_asan

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Re: Earth satellites are impossible
« Reply #145 on: May 30, 2008, 12:08:06 AM »
Quote from: lived_eht_asan on May 29, 2008, 11:58:34 PM
rules of engagement: 

lose x men per day.  end up short crew and lose x * y men per day.
draft defective flight engineers, causing you to lose z extra men per day.

x * y > z.

bingo, you were hired.

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TheEngineer

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Re: Earth satellites are impossible
« Reply #146 on: May 30, 2008, 12:13:29 AM »
Bullet physics 101:

The bullet, as it is traveling down the barrel, is being accelerated upwards by the barrel, since the barrel, stock and rifleman are being accelerated by the earth.  Once the bullet leaves the barrel, it is no longer being accelerated and travels upwards at a constant velocity.  It has a horizontal velocity that is of no importance here.  The earth, still accelerating, must gain a velocity higher than that of the bullet in order to catch it.  The time it will take can be found via:

t = sqrt(2*height/(9.8m/s^2))
« Last Edit: May 30, 2008, 12:17:13 AM by TheEngineer »
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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Earth satellites are impossible
« Reply #147 on: May 30, 2008, 12:15:38 AM »
So a bullet fired from a .22 caliber would hit the ground at the exact same time as a .50 cal round fired at the exact same moment at the exact same height?
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TheEngineer

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Re: Earth satellites are impossible
« Reply #148 on: May 30, 2008, 12:16:23 AM »
Of course.
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Ski

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Re: Earth satellites are impossible
« Reply #149 on: May 30, 2008, 12:18:04 AM »
This is not unique to the flat earth, I might add...
(though the reasons would be slightly different)
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