Good because God commands it, or does God command it because it is good?

So the man said to God:  'Is something good because you command that it is so, or do you command things because it is good?'

and God said: 'its good because I bloody well said so'  

'So then, you could say that rape, murder, starvation, AIDS, cancer and drowning are good. That wouldent make much sense now would it?'  

So God replied 'Very well... it is good, and that is why i command it'  

'Well then, we dont really need God anymore then do we? if you command something because it is good anyway, then we dont need you, since you arn't really telling us anything new are you?  

Needless to say, God did mightilly reign much smiteing on the mans ass.  

This is the argument laid out, exactly the one you bring up, in Plato's Euthyphro. In it, Socrates raises this point to his friend Euthyphro, phrased as "what is pious?" Is something pious because it is loved by the gods, or is something loved by the gods because it is pious. It turns out, Euthyphro couldn't give a sufficient account of what is pious and scuttles off to court, charging his father with murder. The modern argument is called the "trickle down theory of Good," where there must be an ultimate Good to legitimize all Good actions.

    There are many rebuttal's to this, but I'll just choose a quick one. To say that something is bad smelling, we don't need a "greatest worst smell." It's not a great argument, but others such as darwinian origins of morality, eudomonia, hedonism, etc., are all classical and modern attempts to answer the question. Inventing a list of yeas and nays from a fabricated god solves very little.

The purpose of God's existence is to tell Man what right and wrong is, and that is his only purpose?

Mostly fail.

The purpose of God's existence is to tell Man what right and wrong is, and that is his only purpose?

if you say so.

So the man said to God:  'Is something good because you command that it is so, or do you command things because it is good?'

and God said: 'its good because I bloody well said so' 

'So then, you could say that rape, murder, starvation, AIDS, cancer and drowning are good. That wouldent make much sense now would it?' 

So God replied 'Very well... it is good, and that is why i command it' 

'Well then, we dont really need God anymore then do we? if you command something because it is good anyway, then we dont need you, since you arn't really telling us anything new are you? 

Needless to say, God did mightilly reign much smiteing on the mans ass.   

Horrible logic. Rape has been viewed as good in some cultures. Pillaging has been the way of life for others. Good is subjective.

Quote from: Beeper on April 29, 2008, 01:25:07 PM

So the man said to God:  'Is something good because you command that it is so, or do you command things because it is good?'

and God said: 'its good because I bloody well said so' 

'So then, you could say that rape, murder, starvation, AIDS, cancer and drowning are good. That wouldent make much sense now would it?' 

So God replied 'Very well... it is good, and that is why i command it' 

'Well then, we dont really need God anymore then do we? if you command something because it is good anyway, then we dont need you, since you arn't really telling us anything new are you? 

Needless to say, God did mightilly reign much smiteing on the mans ass.   

Horrible logic. Rape has been viewed as good in some cultures. Pillaging has been the way of life for others. Good is subjective.

Im talking about the collective view of all that is considerd 'good' by the christian faith. This means the basics such as jesus, holy spirt and so on,while also meaning that certain things are certainly labeled as 'bad' (as indicated by the 10 commandments). The logic behind this would be bad if it wasnt for hte fact the faith has given a list of certain acts considerd Good and Evil.

there is no god 

there is no god 

And you know this how?

Anyway, the Bible says that God created man, right? It also says that He has "written His law on the hearts of men". All men know the laws of God. Now, we also know that men have fallen short of the glory of God and are easy to be decieved.

It's pretty simple then. Just because deep down you know something to be right or wrong, if you were raised or taught differently, you just might ignore (or not even notice) the moral law written within.

Nature vs nurture, if you will.

Quote from: Saint Raist on April 30, 2008, 03:13:20 PM

Quote from: Beeper on April 29, 2008, 01:25:07 PM

So the man said to God:  'Is something good because you command that it is so, or do you command things because it is good?'

and God said: 'its good because I bloody well said so' 

'So then, you could say that rape, murder, starvation, AIDS, cancer and drowning are good. That wouldent make much sense now would it?' 

So God replied 'Very well... it is good, and that is why i command it' 

'Well then, we dont really need God anymore then do we? if you command something because it is good anyway, then we dont need you, since you arn't really telling us anything new are you? 

Needless to say, God did mightilly reign much smiteing on the mans ass.   

Horrible logic. Rape has been viewed as good in some cultures. Pillaging has been the way of life for others. Good is subjective.

Im talking about the collective view of all that is considerd 'good' by the christian faith. This means the basics such as jesus, holy spirt and so on,while also meaning that certain things are certainly labeled as 'bad' (as indicated by the 10 commandments). The logic behind this would be bad if it wasnt for hte fact the faith has given a list of certain acts considerd Good and Evil.

Example?

Quote from: JOEYBOY on May 01, 2008, 06:11:04 AM

there is no god 

And you know this how?

Anyway, the Bible says that God created man, right? It also says that He has "written His law on the hearts of men". All men know the laws of God. Now, we also know that men have fallen short of the glory of God and are easy to be decieved.

It's pretty simple then. Just because deep down you know something to be right or wrong, if you were raised or taught differently, you just might ignore (or not even notice) the moral law written within.

Nature vs nurture, if you will.

the idea of revelation is stupid, that's about all you can say to this argument.

Quote from: Saint Raist on April 30, 2008, 03:13:20 PM

Quote from: Beeper on April 29, 2008, 01:25:07 PM

So the man said to God:  'Is something good because you command that it is so, or do you command things because it is good?'

and God said: 'its good because I bloody well said so' 

'So then, you could say that rape, murder, starvation, AIDS, cancer and drowning are good. That wouldent make much sense now would it?' 

So God replied 'Very well... it is good, and that is why i command it' 

'Well then, we dont really need God anymore then do we? if you command something because it is good anyway, then we dont need you, since you arn't really telling us anything new are you? 

Needless to say, God did mightilly reign much smiteing on the mans ass.   

Horrible logic. Rape has been viewed as good in some cultures. Pillaging has been the way of life for others. Good is subjective.

Im talking about the collective view of all that is considerd 'good' by the christian faith. This means the basics such as jesus, holy spirt and so on,while also meaning that certain things are certainly labeled as 'bad' (as indicated by the 10 commandments). The logic behind this would be bad if it wasnt for hte fact the faith has given a list of certain acts considerd Good and Evil.

So the good and bad defined by god.... then you said god can't define good and bad.... sounds like he did.
The fact that good and bad are subjective means that god decides what is good and evil. I believe something is evil because he commands that it is. In fact, the people that haven't heard and believed that he commanded it so, sometimes find good things bad and vice versa.

Quote from: Beeper on May 01, 2008, 05:52:47 AM

Quote from: Saint Raist on April 30, 2008, 03:13:20 PM

Quote from: Beeper on April 29, 2008, 01:25:07 PM

So the man said to God:  'Is something good because you command that it is so, or do you command things because it is good?'

and God said: 'its good because I bloody well said so' 

'So then, you could say that rape, murder, starvation, AIDS, cancer and drowning are good. That wouldent make much sense now would it?' 

So God replied 'Very well... it is good, and that is why i command it' 

'Well then, we dont really need God anymore then do we? if you command something because it is good anyway, then we dont need you, since you arn't really telling us anything new are you? 

Needless to say, God did mightilly reign much smiteing on the mans ass.   

Horrible logic. Rape has been viewed as good in some cultures. Pillaging has been the way of life for others. Good is subjective.

Im talking about the collective view of all that is considerd 'good' by the christian faith. This means the basics such as jesus, holy spirt and so on,while also meaning that certain things are certainly labeled as 'bad' (as indicated by the 10 commandments). The logic behind this would be bad if it wasnt for hte fact the faith has given a list of certain acts considerd Good and Evil.

So the good and bad defined by god.... then you said god can't define good and bad.... sounds like he did.
The fact that good and bad are subjective means that god decides what is good and evil. I believe something is evil because he commands that it is. In fact, the people that haven't heard and believed that he commanded it so, sometimes find good things bad and vice versa.

This gets back to the problem of Christian revelation being the most round about and idiotic way of demanding subservience. He riddles us with the gift of reason, to force us away from the infantile 'life of brian' gullibility, only to use that infantile method to define the Good for us. When we fail be believe the nonsense, we are punished with eternal torture....anyone else find that fucked up?

Quote from: Saint Raist on May 01, 2008, 06:07:11 PM

Quote from: Beeper on May 01, 2008, 05:52:47 AM

Quote from: Saint Raist on April 30, 2008, 03:13:20 PM

Quote from: Beeper on April 29, 2008, 01:25:07 PM

So the man said to God:  'Is something good because you command that it is so, or do you command things because it is good?'

and God said: 'its good because I bloody well said so' 

'So then, you could say that rape, murder, starvation, AIDS, cancer and drowning are good. That wouldent make much sense now would it?' 

So God replied 'Very well... it is good, and that is why i command it' 

'Well then, we dont really need God anymore then do we? if you command something because it is good anyway, then we dont need you, since you arn't really telling us anything new are you? 

Needless to say, God did mightilly reign much smiteing on the mans ass.   

Horrible logic. Rape has been viewed as good in some cultures. Pillaging has been the way of life for others. Good is subjective.

Im talking about the collective view of all that is considerd 'good' by the christian faith. This means the basics such as jesus, holy spirt and so on,while also meaning that certain things are certainly labeled as 'bad' (as indicated by the 10 commandments). The logic behind this would be bad if it wasnt for hte fact the faith has given a list of certain acts considerd Good and Evil.

So the good and bad defined by god.... then you said god can't define good and bad.... sounds like he did.
The fact that good and bad are subjective means that god decides what is good and evil. I believe something is evil because he commands that it is. In fact, the people that haven't heard and believed that he commanded it so, sometimes find good things bad and vice versa.

This gets back to the problem of Christian revelation being the most round about and idiotic way of demanding subservience. He riddles us with the gift of reason, to force us away from the infantile 'life of brian' gullibility, only to use that infantile method to define the Good for us. When we fail be believe the nonsense, we are punished with eternal torture....anyone else find that fucked up?

so what morals are you disagreeing with?

I wasn't disagreeing with any specific moral there, only the way you believe they are decided and dictated.

So your only point against the morals decided by god is that they are decided by god? I really am missing your point... Are you saying we should use our free will to judge them.... But then you say you have no problem with them....

So your only point against the morals decided by god is that they are decided by god? I really am missing your point... Are you saying we should use our free will to judge them.... But then you say you have no problem with them....

Not the fact that god decides them necessarily, but the ridiculous way he decided to let us know what he was thinking. If there was a god who decided good and bad, why reveal those truths to us in such a ridiculous way? Why leave so much room for doubt and disbelief, especially with our gift of reason.

Perhaps he wants to know the degree you agree with him by giving you that extra freedom.

Perhaps he wants to know the degree you agree with him by giving you that extra freedom.

Why then not make it innate in us to know the good? If there is room for disagreement with free will, I go back to my original point of the ridiculous nature of Cristian revelation.

Where was the notion, "conscience" born? But irregardless, my point stands without any moral insertion into us.

Where was the notion, "conscience" born? But irregardless, my point stands without any moral insertion into us.

lawl, nice

You don't like my double negative?

Quote from: Saint Raist on May 01, 2008, 07:27:16 PM

So your only point against the morals decided by god is that they are decided by god? I really am missing your point... Are you saying we should use our free will to judge them.... But then you say you have no problem with them....

Not the fact that god decides them necessarily, but the ridiculous way he decided to let us know what he was thinking. If there was a god who decided good and bad, why reveal those truths to us in such a ridiculous way? Why leave so much room for doubt and disbelief, especially with our gift of reason.

By carving it into stone? Yes that is a very ridiculous way to tell people something.... an engraved invitation....

Quote from: Benocrates on May 01, 2008, 07:48:15 PM

Quote from: Saint Raist on May 01, 2008, 07:27:16 PM

So your only point against the morals decided by god is that they are decided by god? I really am missing your point... Are you saying we should use our free will to judge them.... But then you say you have no problem with them....

Not the fact that god decides them necessarily, but the ridiculous way he decided to let us know what he was thinking. If there was a god who decided good and bad, why reveal those truths to us in such a ridiculous way? Why leave so much room for doubt and disbelief, especially with our gift of reason.

By carving it into stone? Yes that is a very ridiculous way to tell people something.... an engraved invitation....

The Christian/Jewish method of revelation in the old test is no less rediculous than the story of Joseph Smith and the book of Mormon (dum dum dum dum dum). You honestly think that carving into stone was the most perminant and effective way to tell us these laws? Giving the tablets, in private, to one man who we all have to take for granted. And don't get me started on Jesus' 'miracles', lol.

   And Narc, English grammar has a problem with your double negative, lol.

Quote from: Saint Raist on May 02, 2008, 06:09:11 AM

Quote from: Benocrates on May 01, 2008, 07:48:15 PM

Quote from: Saint Raist on May 01, 2008, 07:27:16 PM

So your only point against the morals decided by god is that they are decided by god? I really am missing your point... Are you saying we should use our free will to judge them.... But then you say you have no problem with them....

Not the fact that god decides them necessarily, but the ridiculous way he decided to let us know what he was thinking. If there was a god who decided good and bad, why reveal those truths to us in such a ridiculous way? Why leave so much room for doubt and disbelief, especially with our gift of reason.

By carving it into stone? Yes that is a very ridiculous way to tell people something.... an engraved invitation....

The Christian/Jewish method of revelation in the old test is no less rediculous than the story of Joseph Smith and the book of Mormon (dum dum dum dum dum). You honestly think that carving into stone was the most perminant and effective way to tell us these laws? Giving the tablets, in private, to one man who we all have to take for granted. And don't get me started on Jesus' 'miracles', lol.

   And Narc, English grammar has a problem with your double negative, lol.

Yes, god should have gathered everyone around and told them repeatedly reminding them every day that way they never forgot them or confused what he said......

Clearly not that, but I would think that a god with infinite power would be able to convey his message in a much better way. I think the one thing that makes me whole heartedly doubt the Christian revelation is the local nature of it. Especially when I read about Chinese civilizations, existing far earlier than Western or Jewish societies. If there was a true, law giving god then why would he not make his intentions known on a global scale. What about the natives of North America, pre conquest? Surely gods intention would not be the even more roundabout way of missionaries and black robes as the method to disseminate information. And why a Christian revelation, what about the revelations and miracles existing in, essentially, every other civilization in known record? The questions get deeper and more absurd, until you can open your eyes and see the fail.

He is the god of the jews according to the bible. The god of the people he chose..... I'd go into my thoughts on this but i don't really feel like it....

Beno: You keep thinking God wants us to view his law in an obvious way...

You can't be held to a law you didn't know, so why not make the law available in a way that accountability would usually render positive consequences?

Beno: You keep thinking God wants us to view his law in an obvious way...

You can't be held to a law you didn't know, so why not make the law available in a way that accountability would usually render positive consequences?

I agree, that you can't be held to a law you don't know. So why send the message in such a round about way. The message was not exposed to the rest of the world until missionaries could travel throughout the world. Tribes in the amazon, with no chance of western contact, are left to be ignorant of the law. I'm arguing that this process is nowhere near intelligent or designed for universal understanding or at least access to the law. There is no more claim for the Christians as there is for the Jews, Muslums, Zuesists, etc. for Truth. It comes down to faith in a fantastic story, rivaling the other fantastic stories, that you base your life off of. I don't care if you want to follow that story, but you can't legitimately argue that it is reasonable for anyone else to buy that nonsense.

I don't see why the answer to the thread title can't be both.