# The sun and north star positions

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#### narcberry

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• Official Flat Earth Society Spokesman/min
##### Re: The sun and north star positions
« Reply #60 on: August 07, 2008, 08:09:47 PM »
That was clever! Do it again!

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#### Pyriform

• 12
##### Re: The sun and north star positions
« Reply #61 on: August 08, 2008, 03:02:29 AM »

As you can see in the picture showing the position of the sun, it makes perfect sense that the Earth is round. The position (in degrees) of the sun in the sky during an equinox is equal to 90-your latitude.

but

Snell's law implies that the sun will appear higher than it actually is.

therefore the sun should appear higher than 0 degrees at the north pole at the equinox. How is this possible? Answer: It isn't. So the earth cannot be round.

#### markjo

• Content Nazi
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##### Re: The sun and north star positions
« Reply #62 on: August 08, 2008, 05:33:00 AM »

As you can see in the picture showing the position of the sun, it makes perfect sense that the Earth is round. The position (in degrees) of the sun in the sky during an equinox is equal to 90-your latitude.

but

Snell's law implies that the sun will appear higher than it actually is.

therefore the sun should appear higher than 0 degrees at the north pole at the equinox. How is this possible? Answer: It isn't. So the earth cannot be round.

According to FET, the sun at the north pole at equinox should appear 17.45 degrees above the horizon.  Why is this not observed?
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

#### Parsifal

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##### Re: The sun and north star positions
« Reply #63 on: August 08, 2008, 06:12:30 AM »
According to FET, the sun at the north pole at equinox should appear 17.45 degrees above the horizon.  Why is this not observed?

The EA.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

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#### Pyriform

• 12
##### Re: The sun and north star positions
« Reply #64 on: August 08, 2008, 06:53:23 AM »

According to FET, the sun at the north pole at equinox should appear 17.45 degrees above the horizon.  Why is this not observed?

I make it:

height of sun over equator: 3000mi
distance of poll from equator: 24900mi/2 = 12450mi
altitude of sun: atan(3000/12450) = 13.55 degrees

#### Parsifal

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##### Re: The sun and north star positions
« Reply #65 on: August 08, 2008, 07:11:14 AM »
distance of poll from equator: 24900mi/2 = 12450mi

That's a long way to go just to cast a vote.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

#### markjo

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##### Re: The sun and north star positions
« Reply #66 on: August 08, 2008, 07:14:57 AM »

According to FET, the sun at the north pole at equinox should appear 17.45 degrees above the horizon.  Why is this not observed?

I make it:

height of sun over equator: 3000mi
distance of poll from equator: 24900mi/2 = 12450mi
altitude of sun: atan(3000/12450) = 13.55 degrees

Actually, it's 6225 miles from pole to equator.  12,450 miles is from pole to rim (according to the FAQ).
« Last Edit: August 08, 2008, 07:19:06 AM by markjo »
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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#### Pyriform

• 12
##### Re: The sun and north star positions
« Reply #67 on: August 08, 2008, 07:22:12 AM »
Actually, it's 6225 miles from pole to equator.  12,450 miles is from pole to rim (according to the FAQ).
We're talking about FET. Why are you bringing actuality into it.

#### markjo

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##### Re: The sun and north star positions
« Reply #68 on: August 08, 2008, 08:13:20 AM »
Actually, it's 6225 miles from pole to equator.  12,450 miles is from pole to rim (according to the FAQ).
We're talking about FET. Why are you bringing actuality into it.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

?

#### Pyriform

• 12
##### Re: The sun and north star positions
« Reply #69 on: August 08, 2008, 08:18:47 AM »

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#### rodeoboy

• 401
##### Re: The sun and north star positions
« Reply #70 on: August 19, 2008, 08:13:06 AM »
90-42 does not equal 48. You fail.

Lol, the stupid 15 year old doesn't even know his basic maths.

I blame the American education system.
All cats have four legs. My dog has four legs. Therefore my dog is a cat.

#### Taters343

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##### Re: The sun and north star positions
« Reply #71 on: August 19, 2008, 08:19:03 AM »
90-42 does not equal 48. You fail.

Lol, the stupid 15 year old doesn't even know his basic maths.

I blame the American education system.

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#### zeroply

• 391
• Flat Earth believer
##### Re: The sun and north star positions
« Reply #72 on: August 20, 2008, 10:53:21 PM »
Ok, does anyone have some real arguments against my evidence? I assure you, taters, that 90-42 is in fact 48.

Well, the problem is really in your latitude assumption. How do you KNOW that you're at 42 degrees? You're basing that on an assumption that the Earth is round, so obviously all your results are going to lead you back there.

If you used an FE map, you wouldn't be at 42 degrees, and you would have different results.

Other terms: suppose everyone on this forum told me what city they're in. I send them back the latitude that I claim they're at. They take that number as gospel, make declination measurements of Polaris and the sun, and post them. All their measurements would corroborate that the sun is 8 miles away if I had manipulated the latitudes I fed them.

You need to post proof of your latitude for your argument to hold any water at all, and I doubt you'll be able to do that without first proving the Earth is round...

#### Parsifal

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##### Re: The sun and north star positions
« Reply #73 on: August 20, 2008, 10:55:33 PM »
Other terms: suppose everyone on this forum told me what city they're in. I send them back the latitude that I claim they're at. They take that number as gospel, make declination measurements of Polaris and the sun, and post them. All their measurements would corroborate that the sun is 8 miles away if I had manipulated the latitudes I fed them.

That wouldn't work.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

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#### zeroply

• 391
• Flat Earth believer
##### Re: The sun and north star positions
« Reply #74 on: August 21, 2008, 11:56:56 AM »
Other terms: suppose everyone on this forum told me what city they're in. I send them back the latitude that I claim they're at. They take that number as gospel, make declination measurements of Polaris and the sun, and post them. All their measurements would corroborate that the sun is 8 miles away if I had manipulated the latitudes I fed them.

That wouldn't work.

Are you seeing a specific flaw or do you just need more detail?

#### Parsifal

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##### Re: The sun and north star positions
« Reply #75 on: August 21, 2008, 03:14:16 PM »
Are you seeing a specific flaw or do you just need more detail?

A specific flaw.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

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#### zeroply

• 391
• Flat Earth believer
##### Re: The sun and north star positions
« Reply #76 on: August 22, 2008, 10:48:15 AM »
Are you seeing a specific flaw or do you just need more detail?

A specific flaw.

This is asking a lot, I know, but is there any way you could share what it is so that I can actually try to correct it? Or are you modeling your scientific paradigm on the Patriot Act?

#### Parsifal

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##### Re: The sun and north star positions
« Reply #77 on: August 22, 2008, 10:52:54 AM »
This is asking a lot, I know, but is there any way you could share what it is so that I can actually try to correct it? Or are you modeling your scientific paradigm on the Patriot Act?

I certainly can share. Not every member on this website can see Polaris.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

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#### zeroply

• 391
• Flat Earth believer
##### Re: The sun and north star positions
« Reply #78 on: August 22, 2008, 03:10:29 PM »
This is asking a lot, I know, but is there any way you could share what it is so that I can actually try to correct it? Or are you modeling your scientific paradigm on the Patriot Act?

I certainly can share. Not every member on this website can see Polaris.

That won't be a problem. Obviously if you're too far the amount of atmosphere in between will make seeing some objects impossible. If my calculations are correct then everyone who lives far from the North Pole will see Polaris very close to the horizon, and people even beyond are just too far away to see it.

#### Parsifal

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##### Re: The sun and north star positions
« Reply #79 on: August 22, 2008, 05:19:45 PM »
That won't be a problem. Obviously if you're too far the amount of atmosphere in between will make seeing some objects impossible. If my calculations are correct then everyone who lives far from the North Pole will see Polaris very close to the horizon, and people even beyond are just too far away to see it.

It will make measuring the declination of Polaris difficult for me at 34° S latitude.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

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#### zeroply

• 391
• Flat Earth believer
##### Re: The sun and north star positions
« Reply #80 on: August 23, 2008, 01:39:19 AM »
That won't be a problem. Obviously if you're too far the amount of atmosphere in between will make seeing some objects impossible. If my calculations are correct then everyone who lives far from the North Pole will see Polaris very close to the horizon, and people even beyond are just too far away to see it.

It will make measuring the declination of Polaris difficult for me at 34° S latitude.

No, that 34 degree figure is from the RE maps and is wrong. If you tell me what city you're in, I'll tell you the real latitude based on my correct FE maps. More than likely you'll just be too far away to see Polaris from where you are. It's a matter of distance, not curvature.

#### Parsifal

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##### Re: The sun and north star positions
« Reply #81 on: August 23, 2008, 02:28:37 AM »
No, that 34 degree figure is from the RE maps and is wrong. If you tell me what city you're in, I'll tell you the real latitude based on my correct FE maps. More than likely you'll just be too far away to see Polaris from where you are. It's a matter of distance, not curvature.

Regardless, not being able to see it will make measurement of its declination a bit tricky.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

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#### zeroply

• 391
• Flat Earth believer
##### Re: The sun and north star positions
« Reply #82 on: August 23, 2008, 01:29:58 PM »
No, that 34 degree figure is from the RE maps and is wrong. If you tell me what city you're in, I'll tell you the real latitude based on my correct FE maps. More than likely you'll just be too far away to see Polaris from where you are. It's a matter of distance, not curvature.

Regardless, not being able to see it will make measurement of its declination a bit tricky.

How do you know you can't possibly see it? Aren't you basing that on your assumption that the Earth is round?

Can you see Pluto?

#### Parsifal

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##### Re: The sun and north star positions
« Reply #83 on: August 23, 2008, 05:35:25 PM »
How do you know you can't possibly see it? Aren't you basing that on your assumption that the Earth is round?

I'm basing it on my assumption that people have thought the Earth to be round for so long that if Polaris could be seen from this latitude then somebody would have noticed by now.

Can you see Pluto?

No.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

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#### zeroply

• 391
• Flat Earth believer
##### Re: The sun and north star positions
« Reply #84 on: August 24, 2008, 07:49:30 AM »
How do you know you can't possibly see it? Aren't you basing that on your assumption that the Earth is round?

I'm basing it on my assumption that people have thought the Earth to be round for so long that if Polaris could be seen from this latitude then somebody would have noticed by now.

To conduct an impartial experiment to gather data on whether the Earth is round or not, you must set aside your assumption. You are assuming that the Earth is round, and therefore trusting your terrestrial and celestial maps, and from there generating the result that Polaris is not visible. You haven't seen Pluto because you've never looked for it seriously - you've already been told that it's too far away to see with the naked eye so why bother?

Because people have taken it as obvious does not mean it's true. Refer to Mpemba effect.

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#### zork

• 3319
##### Re: The sun and north star positions
« Reply #85 on: August 24, 2008, 09:14:57 AM »
Well, the problem is really in your latitude assumption. How do you KNOW that you're at 42 degrees? You're basing that on an assumption that the Earth is round, so obviously all your results are going to lead you back there.
Well, it's not assumption. RE people have methods to measure latitudes and longitudes. So you can take and measure for itself and you get same result as others before you. You on other hand haven't yet provided methods to calculate FE latitudes and longitudes so we must yet to rely on RE coordinates which work for now quite well. But as you have seem to have expertise in area I can't resist to ask you for FE map with latitudes and longitudes on it.
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http://thulescientific.com/Lynch%20Curvature%202008.pdf - Visually discerning the curvature of the Earth
http://thulescientific.com/TurbulentShipWakes_Lynch_AO_2005.pdf - Turbulent ship wakes:further evidence that the Earth is round.

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#### ghost_hacked

##### Re: The sun and north star positions
« Reply #86 on: August 24, 2008, 09:17:01 AM »
That won't be a problem. Obviously if you're too far the amount of atmosphere in between will make seeing some objects impossible. If my calculations are correct then everyone who lives far from the North Pole will see Polaris very close to the horizon, and people even beyond are just too far away to see it.

It will make measuring the declination of Polaris difficult for me at 34° S latitude.

No, that 34 degree figure is from the RE maps and is wrong. If you tell me what city you're in, I'll tell you the real latitude based on my correct FE maps. More than likely you'll just be too far away to see Polaris from where you are. It's a matter of distance, not curvature.

I'd love to see 'your' maps. It is a matter of distance plus curvature. Also taking into account the speed of light which is measurable. The reason why the Sun is never in the position you are actually looking at is because it takes about 8 minutes for that sunlight to reach the earth at that distance. We should be able to measure the distance of the sun from the earth with our modern technology.

In the FE model, is the speed of light a constant? Does it even exist? If gravity does not exist, then neither does magnetism. Then there are a whole bunch of other things that cannot exist because of it.

How does the FE not slow down while getting hit by other objects in space... like asteroids. Or does the anti-moonsun  take care of that as well?

I am genuinly interested in hearing the theories of FEers.
Also, is being an FEer also like following a religion?
Do you have to give up common sense to beleive in the fantastical ideas you propose?

So why is there no physical or pictoral evidence of the Ice Walls in the FE model? Why is it always too far away. Why can we put stuff in space (according to the FErs it is a ruse) and not find evidence of this Ice Wall. Or was the Ice Wall an anwer to .. why does not all the water fall off the earth?? Which makes it a theory and nothing more. Since there really has been no proof of it.

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#### Rig Navigator

• 808
##### Re: The sun and north star positions
« Reply #87 on: August 25, 2008, 08:27:23 AM »
You need to post proof of your latitude for your argument to hold any water at all, and I doubt you'll be able to do that without first proving the Earth is round...

Well, I can post celestial observations of the Sun, Jupiter and stars.  Do those count?