A proposed experiment for testing bending light.

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Dr Matrix

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Re: A proposed experiment for testing bending light.
« Reply #30 on: August 24, 2008, 02:17:33 PM »
Lol... I'm not saying I'm an advocate for infinite planes of mass, but at least it could just be inertial rather than having to be constantly accelerating upwards.

Actually, it doesn't work - an infinite plane would have parallel gravitational field lines vertically from the surface, which would not decrease with altitude  :-\ Oh well, it was good while it lasted (I think).
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AmateurAstronomer

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Re: A proposed experiment for testing bending light.
« Reply #31 on: August 25, 2008, 12:31:37 AM »
Dear Astronomer, I'm very sorry you misunderstood what I was trying to say, but it really is my fault, because I misunderstood what you proposed. Let me try to make amends.  :)

Any horizontally-stretched wire, no matter how tight the tension, will always have a deflection due to the force of gravity movement across geodesics.

First of all, FE folks say that the earth is accelerating upward at 9.8 m/s/s, because gravity doesn't exist. In this magic elevator model, everyone will experience gravitation, which people like you and me call just plain gravity. But the result is the same.

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Draw a free-body diagram for a 1-foot section of the wire, in the middle, and you'll see there must be deflection.

You seem to be one of the more educated people here, so I assumed you knew what a free-body diagram was. What I meant is that a 1-foot section of wire will have tension pulling left and right (represented by force arrows pointing 180o and 0o), but will also be subject to gravitation, even in the FE model, represented by a force arrow pointing down (270o).

In a free-body diagram the lengths of all arrows represent the magnitude of the forces involved. And in a static (not dynamic) system, these forces must all sum to a zero vector.

If your wire were extremely lightweight, the down arrow will be extremely small. But it will be there. This means, since there are only three forces acting on that small length of wire (two tensions plus one gravitation), that the tensions must have a vertical component as well, even if it is very tiny, meaning they can't be at 180o and 0o. In plain English? The wire cannot be perfectly horizontal.

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Why not suspend the wire along side a skyscraper? That will give you plenty of distance.

Ok, here's where I did the "epic fail" thing. Halfway through your problem I completely forgot why you were tensioning the wire, so I simply proposed an easy method for tensioning a wire with no deflection, vertically along side a skyscraper. No wonder you didn't know what I was talking about!  :)

I had just been reading about some Harvard professors who conducted an experiment with redshifting electromagnetic waves using the Earth's gravitation, and they did it in an elevator shaft, with success. So in my mind I was sort of thinking about that.
First off, you have no need to apologize, and let me apologize to you and robbyj. I had a lack of sleep and a surplus of alcohol the night before last, was looking for a fight, and really took the piss... I know that's not a real excuse, but I should by all rights have kept myself away from any and all cell phones-internets. At least I didn't do as bad here as I did at sites unmentioned.

Second, thanks for the complements, but keep in mind that math is definitely not my strong suit. I'm an art's and philosophy major, know just enough math to get me by, and keep all the algorithms I use in max and other endeavors bookmarked for fingertip reference. That's why you won't see me in the math threads here. I can't swim in those waters, and they're way over my head.

On the wire experiment issue I'm totally getting what you're saying now. I was aware that there would be some arcing, and I was willing to accept a tolerable degree of deviation, but I'm starting to see that the arcing on a wire that length would give deviation that I wouldn't find acceptable, let alone the rest of the posters here. I'm trying to think of some ways to scale it down so that it's more workable, and yet could still give verifiable results.



Please keep up the good work carrying the RET torch. (Love the 3D Studio Max!)  :-*
You keep fighting the good fight too. The "see the sticky" response I keep seeing you getting isn't very good debating in my opinion. I'm sure that for every 30 page thread they've told you to look at where some poster made a hypothesis 15 pages in that kind of backs up FET, but is unverified by any kind of experimentation, you have knowledge of dozens of experiments, well documented, and reproduced by peers that controvert it. It must be frustrating as hell to be told again and again that the works of the greatest minds on the planet, and the greatest minds of the past are meaningless in debate and reality because they are all part of some grand "conspiracy" that they can't prove by any means but hold true nonetheless, and hold you to by proxy. I know it frustrates the hell out of me. ::)

The part that makes it personal to me and brings my ire up, is the assertion that all world leaders and governments are just keeping up the charade of turmoil to cover up this "conspiracy". Anyone else with family in the service probably feels the same way. Can any FE'es honestly say they think Iraq's a charade, Darfur's a charade, or that the Georgia conflict, and Russia back on the defensive is just a charade?



Yes, please keep making the diagrams.  I don't have the ability, and love having them as reference material.

Thanks. I love making stuff. If you, or anyone else, FE or RE, have an idea for me I can flesh out, let me know. I'll put it on my to-do list.



Stringing up a wire between two trees sounds like a crazy idea..

Why not do an easier version? (still very hard to do though, for a hobby scientist)

Set up two mirrors, exactly 90 degrees to a FLAT horizontal plane. Bounce a laser between the mirrors. Have photo-sensors count the bounces to get the total distance. See if the laser wanders upwards/downwards, and use that to rate to the distance. You get the idea..

I personally like the idea, but I don't have that kind of fluid cash to be throwing away on a hobby exercise, and it's been done anyways many times for multiple non-related experiments with no noticeable vertical wandering. I'm sure FE proponents would say that striking the vertical plane re-aligned it straight again, it's all a big conspiracy, or something like that. That's why I picked the simplest kind of experiment for my proposal. Emitter -> target... All I'm concerned with is getting pre-experiment deviation to an acceptable level.



Ok, I was thinking about the vertical wire idea, and I have come up with my version of the experiment, it uses 2 lasers 1 is perfectly vertical, the other is at an angle, as the lift decends, the dots will converge linearly if the light is straight, and non linearly if it is curved. 

On the diagram, the left hand red line represents a red laser of straight light, and the green is if light is curved.

The only disadvantage is that the curve is supposedly less at incline so would need more accurate equipment.

Also it doesn't need to be a lift shaft, a window cleaners basket would work the same, as would a board lowered down a stairwell. 

Another way of doing it would be like in the second diagram, 3 equally spaced vertical lasers shone upwards, and 2 shone downwards.  If light is straight, they cross halfway up, if it is not, they cross less than halfway up.

It would probably work in the RET world, but FET proponents say only horizontal light curves, and even if you proved something, it would be meaningless to this discussion. That's why I'm proposing a horizontal test. If you're interested in that though, and want to have a real world discussion, try talking to cbreiling... He seems to have a good grasp on things similar to what you're proposing. He could probably tell you if it would work or not.
Reality becomes apparent to the patient observer. Or you can learn a thing or two if you're in a hurry.

Re: A proposed experiment for testing bending light.
« Reply #32 on: August 25, 2008, 06:01:17 AM »
Stringing up a wire between two trees sounds like a crazy idea..
Why not do an easier version? (still very hard to do though, for a hobby scientist)
Set up two mirrors, exactly 90 degrees to a FLAT horizontal plane. Bounce a laser between the mirrors. Have photo-sensors count the bounces to get the total distance. See if the laser wanders upwards/downwards, and use that to rate to the distance. You get the idea..

I personally like the idea, but I don't have that kind of fluid cash to be throwing away on a hobby exercise, and it's been done anyways many times for multiple non-related experiments with no noticeable vertical wandering. I'm sure FE proponents would say that striking the vertical plane re-aligned it straight again, it's all a big conspiracy, or something like that. That's why I picked the simplest kind of experiment for my proposal. Emitter -> target... All I'm concerned with is getting pre-experiment deviation to an acceptable level

I dont think they would say that about the mirrors.. Its too easy to see how a mirror works. Just look in one.

The tree idea is not the simplest one. Its obviously to sensitive to errors. Keep in mind that the bent light in FE is exactly the same as how much earth is curved in RE.
Ooompa ooompa

Re: A proposed experiment for testing bending light.
« Reply #33 on: August 25, 2008, 06:08:51 AM »
Another expirement idea:

Get to a really high tower/building, measure the height from ground. Point a laser to north horizon. Have one person at that horizon look at the laser and measure the angle to ground and laser. Do the same thing over again but to the south. At the tower, measure the angle.

Now, you have triangles with angles, and shadow objects on a known height.

No need to string up anything to anything.
Ooompa ooompa

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AmateurAstronomer

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Re: A proposed experiment for testing bending light.
« Reply #34 on: August 25, 2008, 06:26:12 AM »
Stringing up a wire between two trees sounds like a crazy idea..
Why not do an easier version? (still very hard to do though, for a hobby scientist)
Set up two mirrors, exactly 90 degrees to a FLAT horizontal plane. Bounce a laser between the mirrors. Have photo-sensors count the bounces to get the total distance. See if the laser wanders upwards/downwards, and use that to rate to the distance. You get the idea..

I personally like the idea, but I don't have that kind of fluid cash to be throwing away on a hobby exercise, and it's been done anyways many times for multiple non-related experiments with no noticeable vertical wandering. I'm sure FE proponents would say that striking the vertical plane re-aligned it straight again, it's all a big conspiracy, or something like that. That's why I picked the simplest kind of experiment for my proposal. Emitter -> target... All I'm concerned with is getting pre-experiment deviation to an acceptable level

I dont think they would say that about the mirrors.. Its too easy to see how a mirror works. Just look in one.

The tree idea is not the simplest one. Its obviously to sensitive to errors. Keep in mind that the bent light in FE is exactly the same as how much earth is curved in RE.

And like I said, the mirror experiment has been done many, many, many times, albeit it not in this context, or for this reason. The proof that there was no upward wandering light should be valid now, by proxy, but i'm betting it's not, and by this forums standards, I'd agree.

And I'm well aware that the curved light in FET is the same as the earths curve in RET. That's why I'm working on the whole tensioned line angle I've got going. I'm trying to establish a straight line both camps will agree is straight within an accepted margin of deviation. What I'm trying to to is find out what margin of error is acceptable to both camps, and whether my results would be accepted if I stayed within those margins, and provided acceptable video recordings, measurements, and work logs, and full directions for my peers to reproduce my work.

I'm not willing to waste my time or money though, so if FET proponents say outright they would not accept it, or don't bother to respond at all, I'm not going to bother setting anything up.
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AmateurAstronomer

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Re: A proposed experiment for testing bending light.
« Reply #35 on: August 25, 2008, 06:29:45 AM »
Another expirement idea:

Get to a really high tower/building, measure the height from ground. Point a laser to north horizon. Have one person at that horizon look at the laser and measure the angle to ground and laser. Do the same thing over again but to the south. At the tower, measure the angle.

Now, you have triangles with angles, and shadow objects on a known height.

No need to string up anything to anything.

If that's the experiment you want to run, flesh it out a bit more and set it up. If you plan on doing it, start your own thread. I'm just looking for feedback here. If you have none to give stop posting here.
Reality becomes apparent to the patient observer. Or you can learn a thing or two if you're in a hurry.

Re: A proposed experiment for testing bending light.
« Reply #36 on: August 25, 2008, 06:43:45 AM »
If that's the experiment you want to run, flesh it out a bit more and set it up. If you plan on doing it, start your own thread. I'm just looking for feedback here. If you have none to give stop posting here.

I just gave you feedback. Why so ungrateful?
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AmateurAstronomer

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Re: A proposed experiment for testing bending light.
« Reply #37 on: August 25, 2008, 07:16:06 AM »
If that's the experiment you want to run, flesh it out a bit more and set it up. If you plan on doing it, start your own thread. I'm just looking for feedback here. If you have none to give stop posting here.

I just gave you feedback. Why so ungrateful?

Because your last posts feedback on my experiment, and all your feedback in this thread so far involved changing my experiment to something else, and I rejected every proposal you made on the grounds that I felt it would not be accepted on it's premises, and encouraged you to take your ideas elsewhere.

Can you point to anything you said about my experiment here, as outlined in the first post, other than that it was stupid?
« Last Edit: August 25, 2008, 07:19:13 AM by AmatureAstronomer »
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divito the truthist

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Re: A proposed experiment for testing bending light.
« Reply #38 on: August 25, 2008, 07:31:47 AM »
But I can't figure out why there'd be an Ice Wall?

If the area now inhabited on Earth used to be ice, the Ice Wall is simply what is left of the melt that revealed the Earth's land masses. The Ice Wall is the limit to which the Sun's rays can melt the ice.

That's at least one way to look at it. Whether the bending of light has anything to do with this is another story.
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AmateurAstronomer

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Re: A proposed experiment for testing bending light.
« Reply #39 on: August 25, 2008, 07:35:25 AM »
But I can't figure out why there'd be an Ice Wall?

If the area now inhabited on Earth used to be ice, the Ice Wall is simply what is left of the melt that revealed the Earth's land masses. The Ice Wall is the limit to which the Sun's rays can melt the ice.

That's at least one way to look at it. Whether the bending of light has anything to do with this is another story.

Why would there be ice over the Earth in the first place though...
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divito the truthist

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Re: A proposed experiment for testing bending light.
« Reply #40 on: August 25, 2008, 07:39:16 AM »
The same reason there's ice on a spherical Earth.
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AmateurAstronomer

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Re: A proposed experiment for testing bending light.
« Reply #41 on: August 25, 2008, 07:48:13 AM »
The same reason there's ice on a spherical Earth.

Because they're on the polar ends of a sphere that remains mostly vertical throughout it's rotation around it's heat source, and therefore gets the least direct heating? That doesn't make sense for a flat earth...
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divito the truthist

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Re: A proposed experiment for testing bending light.
« Reply #42 on: August 25, 2008, 07:51:35 AM »
Ah, clever. To be more specific, the reason on a spherical Earth is that it gets the least direct heating, as you pointed out. That it gets the "least direct heating" is the same for a flat Earth (provided that is the explanation you adhere to).
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AmateurAstronomer

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Re: A proposed experiment for testing bending light.
« Reply #43 on: August 25, 2008, 07:59:49 AM »
Ah, clever. To be more specific, the reason on a spherical Earth is that it gets the least direct heating, as you pointed out. That it gets the "least direct heating" is the same for a flat Earth (provided that is the explanation you adhere to).

Divito, you just danced completely around my question of why a flat earth would have begun completely covered with ice. I understand why the sunlit part would have thawed, but why the ice to begin with, and similarly can you give me any input into how you think it all began in general? I'm off to bed ATM, so no rush.
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divito the truthist

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Re: A proposed experiment for testing bending light.
« Reply #44 on: August 25, 2008, 08:06:42 AM »
It didn't begin completely with ice. The same evolution of the Earth would hold; the Earth began as molten, and cooled enough to develop crust, water and later ice.
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