Designer always greater than the creation?

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Benocrates

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Re: Designer always greater than the creation?
« Reply #60 on: April 17, 2008, 09:46:21 AM »
       The concept of entropy is included in my theory via eventual destruction. It appears to me that this is the eventual conclusion of all systems in our universe, but development seems also integral. It's definitely an elementary hypothesis, I think it primarily deals with the nature of 'things,' what is a thing and what is real.

   This deals with the somewhat paradoxical notion that our atoms constantly die and are replaced, though our notion of self is maintained. Along the same lines is the issue of numbers as things, a table as a thing (beyond its constitute parts), love as a thing, the future as a thing, etc. Definitely a very deep philosophical question. So, I suppose I am hypothesizing that although individual components, perhaps the most real things (if there is in fact a hierarchy of real) are prone to entropy, the concept of the thing as a whole is prone to growing complexity to an eventual destruction.

     This would follow with the Heideggarean notion of alethea (unconcealment) via poesis (bringing forth in the form of techne (highlighting and bringing forth 'natural' essences of a thing) and art, music, poetry, etc.) as well as the convoluted idea of technology (with the essence as Gestell (enframing), reducing all things to standing-reserve). In this philosophy, things are not created or destroyed, but uncovered and covered. The truth, and ultimate telos of life, is the ultimate alethea (translated in Latin as Veritas - Truth) of the essence of existence. Perhaps there is no true movement of things toward complexity, but a simple uncovering of pre-existing essences, covered for one reason or another.

I know that was really detailed, but Heidegger deserves a detailed account of his philosophy.
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narcberry

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Re: Designer always greater than the creation?
« Reply #61 on: April 17, 2008, 07:24:21 PM »
Offtopic guys.

I don't care how you interpret "greater", the major condition is:
A creates B creates C, where A < B < C.

Whatever you're interpretation of greater, the most important is that the above is true.

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Benocrates

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Re: Designer always greater than the creation?
« Reply #62 on: April 17, 2008, 08:24:17 PM »
Offtopic guys.

I don't care how you interpret "greater", the major condition is:
A creates B creates C, where A < B < C.

Whatever you're interpretation of greater, the most important is that the above is true.

I was arguing that there is no such thing as create, only uncover. Alethea as the Truth, therefore there is no such thing as creation. Poesis, Physis and "Technology" are the three ways that the essence of things become unconcealed. It's really a spin on Plato's eidos, as well as the Aristotelian causes.
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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: Designer always greater than the creation?
« Reply #63 on: April 17, 2008, 08:25:44 PM »
Offtopic guys.

I don't care how you interpret "greater", the major condition is:
A creates B creates C, where A < B < C.

Whatever you're interpretation of greater, the most important is that the above is true.

I was arguing that there is no such thing as create, only uncover. Alethea as the Truth, therefore there is no such thing as creation. Poesis, Physis and "Technology" are the three ways that the essence of things become unconcealed. It's really a spin on Plato's eidos, as well as the Aristotelian causes.

Honestly, Benocrates, you might as well argue in favor of the existence of God.
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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narcberry

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Re: Designer always greater than the creation?
« Reply #64 on: April 17, 2008, 08:27:09 PM »
Beno: you're arguing what constitutes 'greater'.
Focus on A makes B makes C. Then focus on greater, it is the much looser restriction.

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Benocrates

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Re: Designer always greater than the creation?
« Reply #65 on: April 17, 2008, 08:29:04 PM »
Beno: you're arguing what constitutes 'greater'.
Focus on A makes B makes C. Then focus on greater, it is the much looser restriction.

I'm arguing what's the definition of makes, I argue there is no creation in the sense we are talking about. It may not fit your definition, but I'm pretty sure we exhausted the discussion on that particular viewpoint. I'm presenting something alternate that when you think about it, actually makes a lot of sense.
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Raist

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Re: Designer always greater than the creation?
« Reply #66 on: April 17, 2008, 08:29:52 PM »
Beno: you're arguing what constitutes 'greater'.
Focus on A makes B makes C. Then focus on greater, it is the much looser restriction.

I'm arguing what's the definition of makes, I argue there is no creation in the sense we are talking about. It may not fit your definition, but I'm pretty sure we exhausted the discussion on that particular viewpoint. I'm presenting something alternate that when you think about it, actually makes a lot of sense.
If nothing is created only uncovered, then replace the word creates with uncovers and carry on.

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narcberry

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Re: Designer always greater than the creation?
« Reply #67 on: April 17, 2008, 08:31:29 PM »
Beno: you're arguing what constitutes 'greater'.
Focus on A makes B makes C. Then focus on greater, it is the much looser restriction.

I'm arguing what's the definition of makes, I argue there is no creation in the sense we are talking about. It may not fit your definition, but I'm pretty sure we exhausted the discussion on that particular viewpoint. I'm presenting something alternate that when you think about it, actually makes a lot of sense.

Arguing in the platonic sense, meaning not physical. I'm speaking physical. I don't care about whatever opinion your philosophy teacher just gave you without any of your own resistance.

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Benocrates

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Re: Designer always greater than the creation?
« Reply #68 on: April 17, 2008, 08:32:56 PM »
If the Truth of the world is uncovering, then there would be no sensible idea behind building complexity. You wouldn't be creating anything (for example an algorithm or artificial mind) only liberating it from its concealed state...so essentially the argument of something creating something greater makes no sense.
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Benocrates

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Re: Designer always greater than the creation?
« Reply #69 on: April 17, 2008, 08:34:36 PM »
Beno: you're arguing what constitutes 'greater'.
Focus on A makes B makes C. Then focus on greater, it is the much looser restriction.

I'm arguing what's the definition of makes, I argue there is no creation in the sense we are talking about. It may not fit your definition, but I'm pretty sure we exhausted the discussion on that particular viewpoint. I'm presenting something alternate that when you think about it, actually makes a lot of sense.

Arguing in the platonic sense, meaning not physical. I'm speaking physical. I don't care about whatever opinion your philosophy teacher just gave you without any of your own resistance.

You don't have to be a dick, just because you haven't studied Heidegger doesn't mean nobody takes interest in this kind of philosophy. I attempt civil debate, and you throw in ignorance inspired comments...lame and childish. Be civil...
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narcberry

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Re: Designer always greater than the creation?
« Reply #70 on: April 17, 2008, 08:38:06 PM »
If the Truth of the world is uncovering, then there would be no sensible idea behind building complexity. You wouldn't be creating anything (for example an algorithm or artificial mind) only liberating it from its concealed state...so essentially the argument of something creating something greater makes no sense.

And in the true spirit of philosophy, you've altered an answerable question into a quest for unknowledge. "Love of wisdom" my ass, philosophers are always those living in circumstances that require no work, and afford all time and comforts to pontificate about ideas whose sole purpose is to perpetuate themselves by never bringing about any conclusion to anything.

In the thousands of years of recorded history, the entirety of philosophers and philosophies can be summed up with a single conclusion:
1. I exist.

If you continue to follow these "great thinkers" you will accomplish nothing. You are also abhorrently boring quoting ideas we've heard a million times as if you have some new mastery or contribution to them.

Stay on topic, it's really quite simple.

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Benocrates

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Re: Designer always greater than the creation?
« Reply #71 on: April 17, 2008, 08:44:40 PM »
I really have nothing much to say to someone who insults my life's passion and work, it's sad you have to lash out. It is funny though, you have thousands of posts on this board, make topics about the ability of a creator to create more complexity....and then call me a sophist...

    You clearly don't understand real philosophy, so I won't blame you for it. You probably would appreciate it much more if you studied it more frequently, and would gain much more respect than you give it now. Plato, Aristotle, Nietzche, Smith, Hobbes, etc. have had more of an impact on whatever society you live in than you will ever know.

    You can insult something all you want, but it's clearly in anger and defense. I'll have to let it go, theres no point in arguing any more.
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Raist

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Re: Designer always greater than the creation?
« Reply #72 on: April 17, 2008, 08:50:04 PM »
If the Truth of the world is uncovering, then there would be no sensible idea behind building complexity. You wouldn't be creating anything (for example an algorithm or artificial mind) only liberating it from its concealed state...so essentially the argument of something creating something greater makes no sense.

This sentence is a blatant philosophical derailing of this thread. Please get back to the original debate. This is not a "can things be created debate". We are running under the assumption they can be created. If you would like to discuss this, then make your own thread. So lets please stop stroking our penises that may or may not exist depending on which philosophy is in vogue right now.

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Benocrates

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Re: Designer always greater than the creation?
« Reply #73 on: April 17, 2008, 08:52:57 PM »
I'm trying to take the topic in a new direction because there was nothing new that was coming from the simple definition. I don't really see a problem in redefinition, and that's what I was trying to do. I have no other kind of insights so I'll just leave the topic, fair enough.
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narcberry

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Re: Designer always greater than the creation?
« Reply #74 on: April 17, 2008, 09:01:08 PM »
The point is: (The bold are assumptions I don't care to debate.)
All problems are transposable.
If the possibility for evolution to exist, exists; other events of the same form would exist.
the problem of evolution is, at heart, continuous creation of greater from lesser.

Does such an event exist?

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Raist

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Re: Designer always greater than the creation?
« Reply #75 on: April 17, 2008, 09:03:51 PM »
I'm trying to take the topic in a new direction because there was nothing new that was coming from the simple definition. I don't really see a problem in redefinition, and that's what I was trying to do. I have no other kind of insights so I'll just leave the topic, fair enough.
Yes but you were redefining it in the wrong way. The word create was fine. Everyone understood it. More complex was the problem. You were leading this from a debate on creating complexity to a debate on existence before creation.

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Re: Designer always greater than the creation?
« Reply #76 on: April 17, 2008, 11:26:42 PM »
Offtopic guys.

I don't care how you interpret "greater", the major condition is:
A creates B creates C, where A < B < C.

Whatever you're interpretation of greater, the most important is that the above is true.
If that is the case, and you believe in the big bang, this thread is over.  That metric makes the whole argument meaningless. Something came from nothing.  /thread.
If you can'? argue bot sides, yyou understand neithbr

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Re: Designer always greater than the creation?
« Reply #77 on: April 17, 2008, 11:27:23 PM »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_programming
http://www.genetic-programming.com/humancompetitive.html

learning algorithms...

Humans make an algorithm that betters itself. Does this algorithm go on to make other, better algorithms? Or is it even better than the human who made them?
They aren't really learning algorithms though, they are genetic based.

Or I could start talking about video games for no reason.
If you can'? argue bot sides, yyou understand neithbr

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Althalus

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Re: Designer always greater than the creation?
« Reply #78 on: April 18, 2008, 12:35:12 AM »
There is only one theoretical instance where anything was created, the big bang.

Nothing has been created since then.

Quote
The point is: (The bold are assumptions I don't care to debate.)
All problems are transposable.
If the possibility for evolution to exist, exists; other events of the same form would exist.
the problem of evolution is, at heart, continuous creation of greater from lesser.
Does such an event exist?
Evolution is a process, not an event.

Evolution of the Universe (not entirely in order)
  • The formation of hadrons from quark-gluon plasma.
  • The formation of atomic nuclei from protons and neutrons.
  • The formation of helium from hydrogen, and of higher elements from the lower.
  • The formation of stars from light elements.
  • The formation of galaxies.
  • The formation of solar systems.

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Benocrates

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Re: Designer always greater than the creation?
« Reply #79 on: April 18, 2008, 09:00:26 AM »
There is only one theoretical instance where anything was created, the big bang.

Nothing has been created since then.

Quote
The point is: (The bold are assumptions I don't care to debate.)
All problems are transposable.
If the possibility for evolution to exist, exists; other events of the same form would exist.
the problem of evolution is, at heart, continuous creation of greater from lesser.
Does such an event exist?
Evolution is a process, not an event.

Evolution of the Universe (not entirely in order)
  • The formation of hadrons from quark-gluon plasma.
  • The formation of atomic nuclei from protons and neutrons.
  • The formation of helium from hydrogen, and of higher elements from the lower.
  • The formation of stars from light elements.
  • The formation of galaxies.
  • The formation of solar systems.


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narcberry

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Re: Designer always greater than the creation?
« Reply #80 on: April 18, 2008, 08:14:23 PM »
Examples so far:
Bigbang (now does this process create anything greater?)
Evolution (intentionally excluded from debate)
...anything else?

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Beeper

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Re: Designer always greater than the creation?
« Reply #81 on: May 03, 2008, 02:17:47 PM »
The worlds smartest man is smarter than his father.
Easy as 3.1415926535897932384626433832795028841971693993751058209749445923078164062862089986280348253421170679

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narcberry

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Re: Designer always greater than the creation?
« Reply #82 on: May 03, 2008, 03:34:21 PM »
The worlds smartest man is smarter than his father.
Does that necessitate a smartest child?

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Beeper

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Re: Designer always greater than the creation?
« Reply #83 on: May 04, 2008, 03:08:46 AM »
The worlds smartest man is smarter than his father.
Does that necessitate a smartest child?

Smarter children have slower developing brains, so i would say not
Easy as 3.1415926535897932384626433832795028841971693993751058209749445923078164062862089986280348253421170679

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narcberry

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Re: Designer always greater than the creation?
« Reply #84 on: May 06, 2008, 07:13:11 PM »
Remember:
A < B < C

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Shredderbeam

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Re: Designer always greater than the creation?
« Reply #85 on: May 16, 2008, 03:54:03 PM »
Honest question...
In regards to the existence of God and Intelligent design I offer a question:

Do we have any evidence of an object being created by something less complex than itself?

Complexity is pretty subjective so this conversation probably wont go anywhere, but still.


Edit:
By greater I generally thought more complex, "can A create a B such that B is both greater than A and create a C that is greater than B?"

It was generally considered before Darwin's time that it took a creation must necessarily be as complex, or less complex than its creator.  However, consider such processes as natural selection, and consider a simple algorithm that can generate high degrees of complexity.

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narcberry

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Re: Designer always greater than the creation?
« Reply #86 on: May 16, 2008, 06:06:40 PM »
We are deliberately not exploring Darwinism on this topic.

And others have suggested algorithms as well. If you are to do the same, please give more information and remember:

Remember:
A < B < C

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Kasroa Is Gone

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Re: Designer always greater than the creation?
« Reply #87 on: May 17, 2008, 09:29:56 AM »
Narc your threads would be far more enjoyable to read through if you revealed your ulterior motive from the outset rather than keeping it hidden and therefore re-positioning the goal posts with every response. As it happens, this thread, like so many, is an excercise in futility and frustration.

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Kasroa Is Gone

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Re: Designer always greater than the creation?
« Reply #88 on: May 17, 2008, 09:31:59 AM »
And to answer the question. No creation can ever be more complex than the designer no matter what your definition of creation is. It's so blatantly obvious, a five-year-old could probably answer this thread.

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narcberry

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Re: Designer always greater than the creation?
« Reply #89 on: May 17, 2008, 03:22:21 PM »
Narc your threads would be far more enjoyable to read through if you revealed your ulterior motive from the outset rather than keeping it hidden.
For you and some others, probably. But if I had, the thread would be instantly derailed.

Here is the heart:
The point is: (The bold are assumptions I don't care to debate.)
All problems are transposable.
If the possibility for evolution to exist, exists; other events of the same form would exist.
the problem of evolution is, at heart, continuous creation of greater from lesser.

Does such an event exist?

So far, I have seen no examples. I do not believe in evolution, as an origin of species, and this is the reason I do not. We cannot even create working simulations in simple spaces that are the same problem. The physical law is entropy, evolution is at odds with that.

And to answer the question. No creation can ever be more complex than the designer no matter what your definition of creation is. It's so blatantly obvious, a five-year-old could probably answer this thread.
Then why do people believe in evolution?