Proof that God indeed exists

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AbdulAziz

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Re: Proof that God indeed exists
« Reply #60 on: September 30, 2008, 10:34:07 PM »
wasnt there a contradictions of the qaran thread not long ago?

so what were we made out of
water
dust
clay
soil
what?
it says all those things and more
in what way is that not a contradiction?

Please read that topic again, if you think you could succeed in finding a contradiction your welcome there to realize your failure in that thought

"And say, `All praise belongs to ALLAH; HE will soon show you HIS Signs, and you will know them.' And thy Lord is not unaware of what you do."

"Were they created of nothing, or were they themselves the creators? "
(Translations of Allah's Words)

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cmdshft

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Re: Proof that God indeed exists
« Reply #61 on: September 30, 2008, 10:34:39 PM »
You see, the burden of proof is upon you at this point. You are taking a book verbatim and blindly. If I write a book for atheists, it's my belief and I am not wrong either at that point. If I then push it on you, I must also provide proof, not require you to prove me wrong.

So, c'mon. You say the Qu'ran isn't wrong, but that's not good enough for me. I may need a variety of factor's to create my own set of beliefs. Who are you to tell me your belief is right?



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AbdulAziz

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Re: Proof that God indeed exists
« Reply #62 on: September 30, 2008, 10:40:50 PM »
You see, the burden of proof is upon you at this point. You are taking a book verbatim and blindly. If I write a book for atheists, it's my belief and I am not wrong either at that point. If I then push it on you, I must also provide proof, not require you to prove me wrong.

So, c'mon. You say the Qu'ran isn't wrong, but that's not good enough for me. I may need a variety of factor's to create my own set of beliefs. Who are you to tell me your belief is right?


LOGICAL CONCEPT OF GOD
My first question to the atheist will be: "What is the definition of God?" For a person to say there is no God, he should know what is the meaning of God. If I hold a book and say that ‘this is a pen’, for the opposite person to say, ‘it is not a pen’, he should know what is the definition of a pen, even if he does not know nor is able to recognise or identify the object I am holding in my hand. For him to say this is not a pen, he should at least know what a pen means. Similarly for an atheist to say ‘there is no God’, he should at least know the concept of God. His concept of God would be derived from the surroundings in which he lives. The god that a large number of people worship has got human qualities - therefore he does not believe in such a god. Similarly a Muslim too does not and should not believe in such false gods.

If a non-Muslim believes that Islam is a merciless religion with something to do with terrorism; a religion which does not give rights to women; a religion which contradicts science; in his limited sense that non-Muslim is correct to reject such Islam. The problem is he has a wrong picture of Islam. Even I reject such a false picture of Islam, but at the same time, it becomes my duty as a Muslim to present the correct picture of Islam to that non-Muslim i.e. Islam is a merciful religion, it gives equal rights to the women, it is not incompatible with logic, reason and science.

QURAN AND MODERN SCIENCE
The methods of proving the existence of God with usage of the material provided in the ‘Concept of God in Islam’ to an atheist may satisfy some but not all.

Many atheists demand a scientific proof for the existence of God. I agree that today is the age of science and technology. Let us use scientific knowledge to kill two birds with one stone, i.e. to prove the existence of God and simultaneously prove that the Qur’an is a revelation of God.

If a new object or a machine, which no one in the world has ever seen or heard of before, is shown to an atheist or any person and then a question is asked, " Who is the first person who will be able to provide details of the mechanism of this unknown object? After little bit of thinking, he will reply, ‘the creator of that object.’ Some may say ‘the producer’ while others may say ‘the manufacturer.’ What ever answer the person gives, keep it in your mind, the answer will always be either the creator, the producer, the manufacturer or some what of the same meaning, i.e. the person who has made it or created it. Don’t grapple with words, whatever answer he gives, the meaning will be same, therefore accept it.

SCIENTIFIC FACTS MENTIONED IN THE QURAN
Check the other topic :)

THEORY OF PROBABILITY
In mathematics there is a theory known as ‘Theory of Probability’. If you have two options, out of which one is right, and one is wrong, the chances that you will chose the right one is half, i.e. one out of the two will be correct. You have 50% chances of being correct. Similarly if you toss a coin the chances that your guess will be correct is 50% (1 out of 2) i.e. 1/2. If you toss a coin the second time, the chances that you will be correct in the second toss is again 50% i.e. half. But the chances that you will be correct in both the tosses is half multiplied by half (1/2 x 1/2) which is equal to 1/4 i.e. 50% of 50% which is equal to 25%. If you toss a coin the third time, chances that you will be correct all three times is (1/2 x 1/2 x 1/2) that is 1/8 or 50% of 50% of 50% that is 12½%.

A dice has got six sides. If you throw a dice and guess any number between 1 to 6, the chances that your guess will be correct is 1/6. If you throw the dice the second time, the chances that your guess will be correct in both the throws is (1/6 x 1/6) which is equal to 1/36. If you throw the dice the third time, the chances that all your three guesses are correct is (1/6 x 1/6 x 1/6) is equal to 1/216 that is less than 0.5 %.

Let us apply this theory of probability to the Qur’an, and assume that a person has guessed all the information that is mentioned in the Qur’an which was unknown at that time. Let us discuss the probability of all the guesses being simultaneously correct.

At the time when the Qur’an was revealed, people thought the world was flat, there are several other options for the shape of the earth. It could be triangular, it could be quadrangular, pentagonal, hexagonal, heptagonal, octagonal, spherical, etc. Lets assume there are about 30 different options for the shape of the earth. The Qur’an rightly says it is spherical, if it was a guess the chances of the guess being correct is 1/30.

The light of the moon can be its own light or a reflected light. The Qur’an rightly says it is a reflected light. If it is a guess, the chances that it will be correct is 1/2 and the probability that both the guesses i.e the earth is spherical and the light of the moon is reflected light is 1/30 x 1/2 = 1/60.

Further, the Qur’an also mentions every living thing is made of water. Every living thing can be made up of either wood, stone, copper, aluminum, steel, silver, gold, oxygen, nitrogen, hydrogen, oil, water, cement, concrete, etc. The options are say about 10,000. The Qur’an rightly says that everything is made up of water. If it is a guess, the chances that it will be correct is 1/10,000 and the probability of all the three guesses i.e. the earth is spherical, light of moon is reflected light and everything is created from water being correct is 1/30 x 1/2 x 1/10,000 = 1/60,000 which is equal to about .0017%.


The Qur’an speaks about hundreds of things that were not known to men at the time of its revelation. Only in three options the result is .0017%. I leave it upto you, to work out the probability if all the hundreds of the unknown facts were guesses, the chances of all of them being correct guesses simultaneously and there being not a single wrong guess. It is beyond human capacity to make all correct guesses without a single mistake, which itself is sufficient to prove to a logical person that the origin of the Qur’an is Divine.

CREATOR IS THE AUTHOR OF THE QUR’AN
The only logical answer to the question as to who could have mentioned all these scientific facts 1400 years ago before they were discovered, is exactly the same answer initially given by the atheist or any person, to the question who will be the first person who will be able to tell the mechanism of the unknown object. It is the ‘CREATOR’, the producer, the Manufacturer of the whole universe and its contents. In the English language He is ‘God’, or more appropriate in the Arabic language, ‘ALLAH’.

QUR’AN IS A BOOK OF SIGNS AND NOT SCIENCE
Let me remind you that the Qur’an is not a book of Science, ‘S-C-I-E-N-C-E’ but a book of Signs ‘S-I-G-N-S’ i.e. a book of ayaats. The Qur’an contains more than 6,000 ayaats, i.e. ‘signs’, out of which more than a thousand speak about Science. I am not trying to prove that the Qur’an is the word of God using scientific knowledge as a yard stick because any yardstick is supposed to be more superior than what is being checked or verified. For us Muslims the Qur’an is the Furqan i.e. criteria to judge right from wrong and the ultimate yardstick which is more superior to scientific knowledge.

But for an educated man who is an atheist, scientific knowledge is the ultimate test which he believes in. We do know that science many a times takes ‘U’ turns, therefore I have restricted the examples only to scientific facts which have sufficient proof and evidence and not scientific theories based on assumptions. Using the ultimate yardstick of the atheist, I am trying to prove to him that the Qur’an is the word of God and it contains the scientific knowledge which is his yardstick which was discovered recently, while the Qur’an was revealed 1400 year ago. At the end of the discussion, we both come to the same conclusion that God though superior to science, is not incompatible with it.

SCIENCE IS ELIMINATING MODELS OF GOD BUT NOT GOD
Francis Bacon, the famous philosopher, has rightly said that a little knowledge of science makes man an atheist, but an in-depth study of science makes him a believer in God. Scientists today are eliminating models of God, but they are not eliminating God. If you translate this into Arabic, it is La illaha illal la, There is no god, (god with a small ‘g’ that is fake god) but God (with a capital ‘G’).


"Soon We will show them our signs in the (farthest) regions (of the earth), and in their own souls, until it becomes manifest to them that this is the Truth. Is it not enough that thy Lord doth witness all things?"

Still some people deny the truth because they are slave to their hatred :)

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Thanks to Mr. Athalus for the reminding, the above words are from the Book "Concept of God" by Dr. Naik

:)
« Last Edit: October 01, 2008, 12:08:25 AM by AbdulAziz »
"And say, `All praise belongs to ALLAH; HE will soon show you HIS Signs, and you will know them.' And thy Lord is not unaware of what you do."

"Were they created of nothing, or were they themselves the creators? "
(Translations of Allah's Words)

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cmdshft

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Re: Proof that God indeed exists
« Reply #63 on: September 30, 2008, 10:44:39 PM »
That doesn't fit in with my beliefs, though. How can it be right then? Wouldn't it account for something like that? And since it doesn't, how can it be right?

Re: Proof that God indeed exists
« Reply #64 on: September 30, 2008, 10:54:36 PM »
The book says we are made of different materials in different sections.That is a contradiction.
Not to mention that all your arguments seem to consist of fanaticism which you have attempted to justify with reasoning warped to fit your belief. I could make the pretty much the same argument given half an afternoon and the patience, for the belief that the world is made of snow.

I may have missed it but what is your reasoning for stating that the qaran could not have been written by man?

Re: Proof that God indeed exists
« Reply #65 on: September 30, 2008, 11:12:42 PM »
Abdul's argument is copy-pasted from this website, I believe he deserves to be banned again for copy right infringement

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AbdulAziz

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Re: Proof that God indeed exists
« Reply #66 on: October 01, 2008, 12:07:20 AM »
Abdul's argument is copy-pasted from this website, I believe he deserves to be banned again for copy right infringement

I never said its my words and I asked Mr. Osama if I could copy from other pages and post them.

However I admit that's a mistake, however the correct copy-paste was done from a Book called: "Concept Of God" not from the site you gave me if you want I can send you the book through email or upload it you, interested?

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In addition to that, you wanted me to prove that the Quran is the words of god, right? can I ask you to do something n_n

Would you please read the "Quran" and then ask me this  again :)
« Last Edit: October 01, 2008, 12:09:46 AM by AbdulAziz »
"And say, `All praise belongs to ALLAH; HE will soon show you HIS Signs, and you will know them.' And thy Lord is not unaware of what you do."

"Were they created of nothing, or were they themselves the creators? "
(Translations of Allah's Words)

Re: Proof that God indeed exists
« Reply #67 on: October 01, 2008, 12:09:41 AM »
So far it is full of inaccuracies and bad arguments, so no.

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AbdulAziz

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Re: Proof that God indeed exists
« Reply #68 on: October 01, 2008, 12:11:21 AM »
So far it is full of inaccuracies and bad arguments, so no.

Ok as you wish, your wasting your time alot on replying my posts and all like if your in a battle or something, why don't waste your time on reading the "Quran" isn't it better than wasting on me and my posts :)
"And say, `All praise belongs to ALLAH; HE will soon show you HIS Signs, and you will know them.' And thy Lord is not unaware of what you do."

"Were they created of nothing, or were they themselves the creators? "
(Translations of Allah's Words)

Re: Proof that God indeed exists
« Reply #69 on: October 01, 2008, 12:15:07 AM »
The  koran is a waste of time too, full of fake science, hatred, discrimination, backwards laws.

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AbdulAziz

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Re: Proof that God indeed exists
« Reply #70 on: October 01, 2008, 12:19:53 AM »
Any wise man can tell which of the two sides is full of hatred  :)

The  koran is a waste of time too, full of fake science, hatred, discrimination, backwards laws.

Question to you Mr. Althalus, who is worse, me or the Quran?  ;D
"And say, `All praise belongs to ALLAH; HE will soon show you HIS Signs, and you will know them.' And thy Lord is not unaware of what you do."

"Were they created of nothing, or were they themselves the creators? "
(Translations of Allah's Words)

Re: Proof that God indeed exists
« Reply #71 on: October 01, 2008, 12:28:34 AM »
I don't think you've been very insulting (at least not in a direct way), while the Koran belittles Jews and Christians repeatedly.

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AbdulAziz

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Re: Proof that God indeed exists
« Reply #72 on: October 01, 2008, 12:34:11 AM »
I don't think you've been very insulting (at least not in a direct way), while the Koran belittles Jews and Christians repeatedly.

Hmmm that's because the Christians & Jews insulting their own god by their own words

Christians: (You already the countless insults if you want please read the topic: "Dear Christian" )

Jews: (They said god gets tired so he rest) + (In their usual prayers they say oh our god wake up and grant us the victory) their god was sleeping! imagine?

That's why Allah in the Quran said >>>

"ALLAH - there is no god save HIM, the Living, the Self-Subsisting and All-Sustaining. Slumber seizes HIM not, nor sleep. To HIM belongs whatsoever is in the heavens and whatsoever is in the earth. Who is he that dare intercede with HIM save by HIS permission ? HE knows what is before them and what is behind them; and they encompass nothing of HIS knowledge, except what HE pleases. HIS knowledge extends over the heavens and the earth; and the care of them wearies HIM not; and HE is the High, the Great."

And finally Allah never forced them to choose Islam, in the end it's their own choice and he said:

"There is no compulsion in religion. Surely the right has become distinct from error; so whosoever refuses to be led by those who transgress and believes in ALLAH, has surely grasped a strong handle which knows no breaking. And ALLAH is All-Hearing. All-Knowing."
"And say, `All praise belongs to ALLAH; HE will soon show you HIS Signs, and you will know them.' And thy Lord is not unaware of what you do."

"Were they created of nothing, or were they themselves the creators? "
(Translations of Allah's Words)

Re: Proof that God indeed exists
« Reply #73 on: October 01, 2008, 12:36:18 AM »
God is never said to sleep or slumber in the Old Testament.

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AbdulAziz

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Re: Proof that God indeed exists
« Reply #74 on: October 01, 2008, 01:20:10 AM »
God is never said to sleep or slumber in the Old Testament.

I said in their prayer, when they pray n_n 

Oh btw in my version of the Bible I have this :)

"And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done."
"And say, `All praise belongs to ALLAH; HE will soon show you HIS Signs, and you will know them.' And thy Lord is not unaware of what you do."

"Were they created of nothing, or were they themselves the creators? "
(Translations of Allah's Words)

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MadDogX

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Re: Proof that God indeed exists
« Reply #75 on: October 01, 2008, 01:25:44 AM »
God is never said to sleep or slumber in the Old Testament.

I said in their prayer, when they pray n_n 

Oh btw in my version of the Bible I have this :)

"And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done."

Why shouldn't god rest?
Quote from: Professor Gaypenguin
I want an Orion slave woman :(
Okay, I admit it.  The earth isn't flat.

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AbdulAziz

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Re: Proof that God indeed exists
« Reply #76 on: October 01, 2008, 02:11:02 AM »
Quote

Why shouldn't god rest?

Because this will be limited and god is not limited, if God rest it means he gets tired and that's against the attributes of god and he wouldn't be considered All-Sustaining and finally a god like that shouldn't be worshiped because another thing can be above him and that is the true god.
"And say, `All praise belongs to ALLAH; HE will soon show you HIS Signs, and you will know them.' And thy Lord is not unaware of what you do."

"Were they created of nothing, or were they themselves the creators? "
(Translations of Allah's Words)

Re: Proof that God indeed exists
« Reply #77 on: October 01, 2008, 02:42:51 AM »
Rest does not necessitate being tired.

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AbdulAziz

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Re: Proof that God indeed exists
« Reply #78 on: October 01, 2008, 02:57:57 AM »
Rest does not necessitate being tired.

Rest Definition is that something left after other parts have been taken away and Freedom from activity (work or strain or responsibility), no matter how much you try to prove otherwise the act of "Rest" means limited or "Un-Godly" act either way that just proves he doesn't deserve to be considered God.
"And say, `All praise belongs to ALLAH; HE will soon show you HIS Signs, and you will know them.' And thy Lord is not unaware of what you do."

"Were they created of nothing, or were they themselves the creators? "
(Translations of Allah's Words)

Re: Proof that God indeed exists
« Reply #79 on: October 01, 2008, 03:00:30 AM »
Quote
"Rest" means limited
If one has to rest.

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Benocrates

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Re: Proof that God indeed exists
« Reply #80 on: October 01, 2008, 05:10:33 AM »
fundies can't tell the difference between hatred and incredulity
Quote from: President Barack Obama
Pot had helped
Get the fuck over it.

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[][][]

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Re: Proof that God indeed exists
« Reply #81 on: October 01, 2008, 05:27:39 AM »
You guys have got to be kidding me, the OT God couldn't even wrestle down Jacob. I wonder if there is an event like this paralleled in the Koran.

Quote
So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak.

When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob's hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man

Then the man said, "Let me go, for it is daybreak." But Jacob replied, "I will not let you go unless you bless me." (Gen 32:24-26 NIV

If there really was a God, the OT would be an insult to him.
The folly of mistaking a paradox for a discovery, a metaphor for a proof, a torrent of verbiage for a spring of capital truths, and oneself for an oracle, is inborn in us. -Some Frenchy

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Benocrates

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Re: Proof that God indeed exists
« Reply #82 on: October 01, 2008, 05:29:16 AM »
Quote
So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak.

When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob's hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man

Then the man said, "Let me go, for it is daybreak." But Jacob replied, "I will not let you go unless you bless me." (Gen 32:24-26 NIV

That sounds incredibly homoerotic.
Quote from: President Barack Obama
Pot had helped
Get the fuck over it.

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Raist

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Re: Proof that God indeed exists
« Reply #83 on: October 01, 2008, 07:15:21 AM »
You guys have got to be kidding me, the OT God couldn't even wrestle down Jacob. I wonder if there is an event like this paralleled in the Koran.

Quote
So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak.

When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob's hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man

Then the man said, "Let me go, for it is daybreak." But Jacob replied, "I will not let you go unless you bless me." (Gen 32:24-26 NIV

If there really was a God, the OT would be an insult to him.

angels /= god

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[][][]

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Re: Proof that God indeed exists
« Reply #84 on: October 01, 2008, 11:35:35 AM »
You guys have got to be kidding me, the OT God couldn't even wrestle down Jacob. I wonder if there is an event like this paralleled in the Koran.

Quote
So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak.

When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob's hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man

Then the man said, "Let me go, for it is daybreak." But Jacob replied, "I will not let you go unless you bless me." (Gen 32:24-26 NIV

If there really was a God, the OT would be an insult to him.

angels /= god

Huh? I think you have something mixed up Raist, Jacob was wrestling with God in the Bible, not with an angel. Read the that part of Genesis if you want.

Edit: This line in particular:

Quote
Then the man said, “Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with men and have overcome. Gen 32:28  NIV
« Last Edit: October 01, 2008, 11:44:29 AM by [][][] »
The folly of mistaking a paradox for a discovery, a metaphor for a proof, a torrent of verbiage for a spring of capital truths, and oneself for an oracle, is inborn in us. -Some Frenchy

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Wendy

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Re: Proof that God indeed exists
« Reply #85 on: October 01, 2008, 11:51:44 AM »
So, with all the other stuff about him in the bible, which is more likely, that he couldn't or wouldn't wrestle down Jacob?
Here's an explanation for ya. Lurk moar. Every single point you brought up has been posted, reposted, debated and debunked. There is a search function on this forum, and it is very easy to use.

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[][][]

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Re: Proof that God indeed exists
« Reply #86 on: October 01, 2008, 12:03:12 PM »
Thats beside the point, I think.  The passage says he saw he couldn't (pretty universally), not that he decided he wouldn't.

But anyways, I'm interested about the angel deal, so far the only translation I have been able to find that says God wrestled with an angel is one of the latin vulgate, I wonder if there are any others.

It seems quite unlikely to me, especially considering this passage also:

Quote
So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, "It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared. Gen 32:30 CEV
The folly of mistaking a paradox for a discovery, a metaphor for a proof, a torrent of verbiage for a spring of capital truths, and oneself for an oracle, is inborn in us. -Some Frenchy

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Raist

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Re: Proof that God indeed exists
« Reply #87 on: October 01, 2008, 12:16:45 PM »
You guys have got to be kidding me, the OT God couldn't even wrestle down Jacob. I wonder if there is an event like this paralleled in the Koran.

Quote
So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak.

When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob's hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man

Then the man said, "Let me go, for it is daybreak." But Jacob replied, "I will not let you go unless you bless me." (Gen 32:24-26 NIV

If there really was a God, the OT would be an insult to him.

angels /= god

Huh? I think you have something mixed up Raist, Jacob was wrestling with God in the Bible, not with an angel. Read the that part of Genesis if you want.

Edit: This line in particular:

Quote
Then the man said, “Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with men and have overcome. Gen 32:28  NIV
http://www.preparingforeternity.com/sr/sr13.htm

ha dur.

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[][][]

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Re: Proof that God indeed exists
« Reply #88 on: October 01, 2008, 12:37:37 PM »
I don't get it, some random website proves it is an angel? Is that using any recognized translation?

I know you like to be contradictory Raist, but please at least put some time into your post.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2008, 12:40:01 PM by [][][] »
The folly of mistaking a paradox for a discovery, a metaphor for a proof, a torrent of verbiage for a spring of capital truths, and oneself for an oracle, is inborn in us. -Some Frenchy

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Raist

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Re: Proof that God indeed exists
« Reply #89 on: October 01, 2008, 12:48:37 PM »
Hosea 12:4 refers to him as an angel. Genesis as a man.

How did you get god? him is the closest you have.