Chain Logic and God

What is human nature?  If human nature is to do evil, then many people have overcome it, because many people have chosen to do good.

Free will doesn't exist. The end.

How did you arrive at that conclusion?

You tools may not have any free will but I do. 

One could argue:
"You were fated to react that way. It is a frightening notion to have no control over your mind and body and your conclusion of free will is a merely a defense mechanism for your own benefit."

Quote from: divito the truthist on February 28, 2008, 11:01:04 AM

Free will doesn't exist. The end.

How did you arrive at that conclusion?

Freely.

Freely.

How do you know?

My opinion on free will is that because I can't define it I can't really say if it exists or not. I certainly have trouble imagining a choice made that was in no way influenced by anything else.

Quote from: Daedalus on March 04, 2008, 10:19:39 AM

Freely.

How do you know?

Because I am awesome.

No, I agree with Danny Dorito. Human NATURE dictates our choices, not free will. We are enslaved to our human natures. Thus, not free will.

Throwback with the "dorito" comment. Childhood ftw.

How did you arrive at that conclusion?

Determinism; I've yet to see evidence to the contrary.

Heres a good investigation on this topic:

Quote from: ﮎingulaЯiτy on March 04, 2008, 10:11:25 AM

How did you arrive at that conclusion?

Determinism; I've yet to see evidence to the contrary.

Actually, the BoP lies upon the person making the claim. In this case, that would just happen to be erm...you. You've reminded others of this countless times.

Actually, the BoP lies upon the person making the claim. In this case, that would just happen to be erm...you. You've reminded others of this countless times.

I'm confused; do you have evidence that your mind and body defy the laws of science to establish free will? What aspect of your life has not been the result of multiple variables?

Otherwise, I see no reason to try and ask for evidence of something that is to me, quite apparent.

Whether something is apparent to you is irrelevant. Aliens are apparent to some. God to others.

My evidence? Quantum theory, genius! You rely upon universal causality, which has been disregarded with quantum theory, so yes, you must provide evidence. I'm not saying that it necessarily does not, but you are the one taking a stance. Therefore, you must provide evidence. Simply because God is apparent to some doesn't mean I'm not going to ask for evidence from them if they start preaching.

I forgot to find that essay again.  Opps.

Anyways, determinism has issues.  As noted, quantum theory.  However, is random dice being thrown any closer to "free will" than determinism?  Sure, these tiny difference makes HUGE differences down the road, but still we aren't the ones making the choices.  Its hardly "free" will.  More like random will. 

Similarily, it should be noted  quantum mechanics can also be seen as deterministic.

Of course since it could easily be argued that since we are so far along in a chaotic system there is no way to tell the difference between the two, this is a bit of a silly question with no answer.

Precisely why I didn't refute determinism out of hand, but I think that will is probably free, if the mechanism behind it is undetectable. Sorta an idea of will is free as long as no-one knows what you're going to do. I guess this viewpoint only works if you're atheist though, a theist, especially a monotheist, would think that God always knows what you're about to do. Or the old matrix theory could work, the idea that you've already chosen what you're going to do later, you just don't know why.

The apparentness of it to myself has nothing to do with evidence. Furthermore, the BoP may be on me, but I have no desire to prove my conclusion. Unless I'm presented with evidence that goes contrary to observations, I have no reason to believe otherwise.

"All events have causes, and their causes are all prior events. There is no cycle of events such that an event (possibly indirectly) causes itself."

Whether you want to talk about the single wave function, or Bohmian mechanics, there are ways of establishing QM as deterministic.

The apparentness of it to myself has nothing to do with evidence. Furthermore, the BoP may be on me, but I have no desire to prove my conclusion. Unless I'm presented with evidence that goes contrary to observations, I have no reason to believe otherwise.

This is a Narcberry reply and is thus inane.

It's actually something that every human invokes. For proof, look at any of your own posts.

Eet moar chikun

Quote from: fshy94 on March 05, 2008, 06:34:44 PM

Actually, the BoP lies upon the person making the claim. In this case, that would just happen to be erm...you. You've reminded others of this countless times.

I'm confused; do you have evidence that your mind and body defy the laws of science to establish free will? What aspect of your life has not been the result of multiple variables?

Otherwise, I see no reason to try and ask for evidence of something that is to me, quite apparent.

So why does something being the result of variables (plus unknown, possibly non existent laws governing quantum mechanics) make it not free will. You decide it, how does how you decide it make it not free will? If you flipped a coin and made your choice based on that would it still not be your free will? Your definition of free will is warped to something that must be entirely random, meaning your definition of free will, is even less so.

So why does something being the result of variables (plus unknown, possibly non existent laws governing quantum mechanics) make it not free will.

Because you are the effect of a cause. Life is merely a chaotic and infinitely complex set of dominoes.

Under your argument, you're trying to establish that you can decide and choose something independent of the variables associated with all of science and the chemical reactions in your brain. I'd like to know how that is possible.

As Quantum Mechanics has shown, there is an inherent indeterminism in natural processes. This is not just due to our inability to take into account all of the variables for some complex system, but because we are unable, in principle, to know all of them at the same time.

As Quantum Mechanics has shown, there is an inherent indeterminism in natural processes. This is not just due to our inability to take into account all of the variables for some complex system, but because we are unable, in principle, to know all of them at the same time.

Not that I think what you just said is true, but it is also fundamentally flawed: just because we are not able to know all of them at the same time doesn't mean the system isn't deterministic.

Quote from: Saint Raist on March 07, 2008, 05:52:41 PM

So why does something being the result of variables (plus unknown, possibly non existent laws governing quantum mechanics) make it not free will.

Because you are the effect of a cause. Life is merely a chaotic and infinitely complex set of dominoes.

Under your argument, you're trying to establish that you can decide and choose something independent of the variables associated with all of science and the chemical reactions in your brain. I'd like to know how that is possible.

Your brain is you. You are the variable. Your argument is flawed.

So you're saying consciousness and being are not the result of chemical reactions or the laws of science?

So you're saying consciousness and being are not the result of chemical reactions or the laws of science?

I said no such thing. I said they are the SAME thing.

Quote from: John Jackson on March 08, 2008, 08:41:37 AM

As Quantum Mechanics has shown, there is an inherent indeterminism in natural processes. This is not just due to our inability to take into account all of the variables for some complex system, but because we are unable, in principle, to know all of them at the same time.

Not that I think what you just said is true, but it is also fundamentally flawed: just because we are not able to know all of them at the same time doesn't mean the system isn't deterministic.

Determinism for you is quite a different thing than for me.

Quote from: Username on March 08, 2008, 10:51:57 AM

Not that I think what you just said is true, but it is also fundamentally flawed: just because we are not able to know all of them at the same time doesn't mean the system isn't deterministic.

Determinism for you is quite a different thing than for me.

What is your definition of determinism then?  Because it seems to be different from every other definition of it I have ever read or heard.

I said no such thing. I said they are the SAME thing.

So being and consciousness aren't the result of chemical reactions, they are the chemical reactions?

Quote from: Saint Raist on March 08, 2008, 03:06:20 PM

I said no such thing. I said they are the SAME thing.

So being and consciousness aren't the result of chemical reactions, they are the chemical reactions?

That is the direction in which all scientific inquiry points.

Not having much to add to the discussion other than the excellent Youtube series I posted I can say that the question of free will is probably the first one that truly blew my mind. I was lying in bed one night and bolted up, basically yelling "all life is determined!" lol. In the meantime I have scaled back my pronouncement as the arguments for determinism are rather short sighted. The true question is the nature of consciousness, is life monist or dualist? So far I have been leaning towards monism however I definitely haven't ruled out the alternative.