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Atmospheric/Perspective Effects

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Althalus

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Atmospheric/Perspective Effects
« on: February 06, 2008, 10:25:45 PM »
How many of them are there in FE and how do they not interfere with each other? The ones I know of are light being bent to reflect onto clouds, light "tunneling" through the atmosphere to create sunsets/sunrises, and the one for explaining ships hulls disappearing first.
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Jim

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Re: Atmospheric/Perspective Effects
« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2008, 10:28:06 AM »
My favourite is the "spotlight" idea.  It's loltastic
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James

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Re: Atmospheric/Perspective Effects
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2008, 01:19:12 PM »
The one explaining the hulls of ships isn't "in FE", it's empircally evident (it's the astoundingly simple principle of "things get smaller the further away they get"). It's called perspective.
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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: Atmospheric/Perspective Effects
« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2008, 05:18:25 PM »
Quote from: Dogplatter on February 07, 2008, 01:19:12 PM
The one explaining the hulls of ships isn't "in FE", it's empircally evident (it's the astoundingly simple principle of "things get smaller the further away they get"). It's called perspective.

No.  According to the laws of perspective an object will get smaller as it gets further away; however, perspective doesn't explain how the hull disappears before the mast.  You're being intellectually dishonest here because what is empirically evident is that there must be something else besides mere perspective going on here.  According to perspective, if there was no curvature, the object would just get smaller and smaller, but it would still be fully visible, top to bottom, no matter how far away it is.  And yet that's how Rowbotham and every other religious nutter who's taken up the FE belief since him explains this: perspective.  Dannyboy, this does not make sense.
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Quote from: wise on August 21, 2018, 11:47:45 PM
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Trekky0623

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Re: Atmospheric/Perspective Effects
« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2008, 06:52:23 PM »
Quote from: Roundy the Intellectual Non-Conformist on February 07, 2008, 05:18:25 PM
Quote from: Dogplatter on February 07, 2008, 01:19:12 PM
The one explaining the hulls of ships isn't "in FE", it's empircally evident (it's the astoundingly simple principle of "things get smaller the further away they get"). It's called perspective.

No.  According to the laws of perspective an object will get smaller as it gets further away; however, perspective doesn't explain how the hull disappears before the mast.  You're being intellectually dishonest here because what is empirically evident is that there must be something else besides mere perspective going on here.  According to perspective, if there was no curvature, the object would just get smaller and smaller, but it would still be fully visible, top to bottom, no matter how far away it is.  And yet that's how Rowbotham and every other religious nutter who's taken up the FE belief since him explains this: perspective.  Dannyboy, this does not make sense.

Geez, Roundy, you forgot the huge-ass waves.
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Trekky0623

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Re: Atmospheric/Perspective Effects
« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2008, 06:54:55 PM »
Quote from: Althalus on February 06, 2008, 10:25:45 PM
How many of them are there in FE and how do they not interfere with each other? The ones I know of are light being bent to reflect onto clouds, light "tunneling" through the atmosphere to create sunsets/sunrises, and the one for explaining ships hulls disappearing first.

Don't forget Tom's crazy refraction to create this:

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jdoe

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Re: Atmospheric/Perspective Effects
« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2008, 07:04:30 PM »
Wow, that is extremely convincing.  I'd like to see an explanation of how sunlight could bend to form a spotlight in these shapes.
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Trekky0623

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Re: Atmospheric/Perspective Effects
« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2008, 07:05:38 PM »
Quote from: jdoe on February 07, 2008, 07:04:30 PM
Wow, that is extremely convincing.  I'd like to see an explanation of how sunlight could bend to form a spotlight in these shapes.

Tom claims it's refraction through air of different temperature...
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jdoe

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Re: Atmospheric/Perspective Effects
« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2008, 07:07:25 PM »
Quote from: Trekky0623 on February 07, 2008, 07:05:38 PM
Quote from: jdoe on February 07, 2008, 07:04:30 PM
Wow, that is extremely convincing.  I'd like to see an explanation of how sunlight could bend to form a spotlight in these shapes.

Tom claims it's refraction through air of different temperature...

Ridiculous, how could the change be that huge and so regular?
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Trekky0623

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Re: Atmospheric/Perspective Effects
« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2008, 07:08:28 PM »
Quote from: jdoe on February 07, 2008, 07:07:25 PM
Quote from: Trekky0623 on February 07, 2008, 07:05:38 PM
Quote from: jdoe on February 07, 2008, 07:04:30 PM
Wow, that is extremely convincing.  I'd like to see an explanation of how sunlight could bend to form a spotlight in these shapes.

Tom claims it's refraction through air of different temperature...

Ridiculous, how could the change be that huge and so regular?

I know.
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jdoe

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Re: Atmospheric/Perspective Effects
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2008, 07:10:34 PM »
The equinox one is really tough to explain.  How does the spotlight form a straight line right down the middle of the earth?
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Trekky0623

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Re: Atmospheric/Perspective Effects
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2008, 07:22:32 PM »
Quote from: jdoe on February 07, 2008, 07:10:34 PM
The equinox one is really tough to explain.  How does the spotlight form a straight line right down the middle of the earth?

That's not the toughest.  Look at the winter solstice.  The sunlight wraps all the way around Antarctica.
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Tom Bishop

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Re: Atmospheric/Perspective Effects
« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2008, 09:46:30 AM »
Quote
Wow, that is extremely convincing.  I'd like to see an explanation of how sunlight could bend to form a spotlight in these shapes.

It doesn't bend into different shapes. The sun's spotlight upon the earth is consistent.

The area of the sun's light does not reflect the prediction of the Round Earth model.
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Re: Atmospheric/Perspective Effects
« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2008, 11:49:55 AM »
Quote from: Tom Bishop on February 08, 2008, 09:46:30 AM
Quote
Wow, that is extremely convincing.  I'd like to see an explanation of how sunlight could bend to form a spotlight in these shapes.

It doesn't bend into different shapes. The sun's spotlight upon the earth is consistent.

The area of the sun's light does not reflect the prediction of the Round Earth model.
Well there's your problem right there.
Tom, seriously, you trust the atmosphere to produce this effect? The 100% stable, 100% regular predictable atmosphere? Oh, wait, don't we live in reality? I thought we were in dreamworld for a moment there.
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Quote from: Tomcooper84
there is no optical light, there is just light and theres no other type of light unless you start talkling about energy saving lightbulbs compared to other types of light bulbs
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Tom Bishop

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Re: Atmospheric/Perspective Effects
« Reply #14 on: February 08, 2008, 12:01:45 PM »
Quote
Tom, seriously, you trust the atmosphere to produce this effect? The 100% stable, 100% regular predictable atmosphere? Oh, wait, don't we live in reality? I thought we were in dreamworld for a moment there.

No. There is no such effect. The sun's spot of light upon the earth is constantly circular. It does not change shapes.
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Conspiracy Mastermind

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Re: Atmospheric/Perspective Effects
« Reply #15 on: February 08, 2008, 12:08:03 PM »
Quote from: Tom Bishop on February 08, 2008, 12:01:45 PM
Quote
Tom, seriously, you trust the atmosphere to produce this effect? The 100% stable, 100% regular predictable atmosphere? Oh, wait, don't we live in reality? I thought we were in dreamworld for a moment there.

No. There is no such effect. The sun's spot of light upon the earth is constantly circular. It does not change shapes.
Yet you said it did. See your flip-flopper is still going strong.
Oh, and your explanation of the seasons is still broken.
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Quote from: Tomcooper84
there is no optical light, there is just light and theres no other type of light unless you start talkling about energy saving lightbulbs compared to other types of light bulbs
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jdoe

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Re: Atmospheric/Perspective Effects
« Reply #16 on: February 08, 2008, 02:06:23 PM »
Quote from: Tom Bishop on February 08, 2008, 12:01:45 PM
Quote
Tom, seriously, you trust the atmosphere to produce this effect? The 100% stable, 100% regular predictable atmosphere? Oh, wait, don't we live in reality? I thought we were in dreamworld for a moment there.

No. There is no such effect. The sun's spot of light upon the earth is constantly circular. It does not change shapes.

Having a 12-hour day and 12-hour night during an equinox is impossible with a circular spotlight.  Remember, everyone on earth agrees that day and night are the same length on this day.  How is this even remotely possible with a circular spotlight?  You saw the diagram.  The earth has to be divided straight down the middle for this to happen.
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Tom Bishop

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Re: Atmospheric/Perspective Effects
« Reply #17 on: February 08, 2008, 02:30:30 PM »
Quote
Yet you said it did. See your flip-flopper is still going strong.
Oh, and your explanation of the seasons is still broken.

Seasons occur because the spotlight of the sun moves over the Southern Hemisphere during the winter months.

The spotlight does grow in diameter when the sun is over the south. But it does not change shape. It's always a circular spot of light. The spotlight grows during the sun's Southern Annulus because the sun varies in vertical altitude as it moves North to South over the course of the year. This is demonstrated by the Analemma of the sun:



Quote
Having a 12-hour day and 12-hour night during an equinox is impossible with a circular spotlight.

Equinox is defined as the day when 12 hours of light exists for Europe and America. That says nothing about the rest of the world.

Quote
Remember, everyone on earth agrees that day and night are the same length on this day.


Actually, they don't.

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How is this even remotely possible with a circular spotlight?

It isn't. Your model is incorrect.

Quote
You saw the diagram.  The earth has to be divided straight down the middle for this to happen.

It doesn't happen. Your model is wrong.
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jdoe

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Re: Atmospheric/Perspective Effects
« Reply #18 on: February 08, 2008, 02:35:20 PM »
Do you have any evidence to back your claim?  There are a lot of people living on every corner of this earth.  Surely one of them would notice if day and night were not equal on the equinox.

Here is a table for sunset/sunrise times in Brisbane, Australia at around the equinox.

http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/astronomy.html?n=47&month=3&year=2008&obj=sun&afl=-11&day=1

Notice that on March 21 that day and night are approximately the same length.  There are plenty of people who use such data on a regular basis.  Someone would notice if they were egregiously wrong.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2008, 02:43:16 PM by jdoe »
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Conspiracy Mastermind

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Re: Atmospheric/Perspective Effects
« Reply #19 on: February 08, 2008, 02:37:28 PM »
Quote from: Tom Bishop on February 08, 2008, 02:30:30 PM
Quote
Yet you said it did. See your flip-flopper is still going strong.
Oh, and your explanation of the seasons is still broken.

Seasons occur because the spotlight of the sun moves over the Southern Hemisphere during the winter months.

The spotlight does grow in diameter when the sun is over the south. But it does not change shape. It's always a circular spot of light. The spotlight grows during the sun's Southern Annulus because the sun varies in vertical altitude as it moves North to South over the course of the year. This is demonstrated by the Analemma of the sun:



Quote
Having a 12-hour day and 12-hour night during an equinox is impossible with a circular spotlight.

Equinox is defined as the day when 12 hours of light exists for Europe and America. That says nothing about the rest of the world.

Quote
Remember, everyone on earth agrees that day and night are the same length on this day.


Actually, they don't.

Quote
How is this even remotely possible with a circular spotlight?

It isn't. Your model is incorrect.

Quote
You saw the diagram.  The earth has to be divided straight down the middle for this to happen.

It doesn't happen. Your model is wrong.

No. I have already shown that your model would mean two times in the year where the sun would appear highest in the sky at every latitude between the innermost and outermost "orbit". This is not observed. Your in-out-in-out spiraling orbit for the sun defies all known physics, and it' a lovely picture but doesn't prove anything.
Oh, and you fail

Enlighten us as to exactly what your model says about the seasons, because every time we shoot part of it down you claim it was never part of your model.
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Quote from: Tomcooper84
there is no optical light, there is just light and theres no other type of light unless you start talkling about energy saving lightbulbs compared to other types of light bulbs
ENaG: Evidence Not a Guarantee.
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Tom Bishop

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Re: Atmospheric/Perspective Effects
« Reply #20 on: February 08, 2008, 02:40:27 PM »
Quote from: jdoe on February 08, 2008, 02:35:20 PM
Do you have any evidence to back your claim?  There are a lot of people living on every corner of this earth.  Surely one of them would notice if day and night were not equal on the equinox.

The majority of the English world lives in the Northern Hemisphere. If you knew Spanish and could convince a native of the South American Jungles to time the length of the day during equinox then your claim would have merit. However, since you do not have any raw data to present, your argument fails.

Quote
Oh, and you fail

A european/american dictionary does not prove that every part of the world experiences 12 hours of daylight on equinox.

Who has measured the time of day from every location on the earth during equinox?
« Last Edit: February 08, 2008, 02:42:52 PM by Tom Bishop »
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jdoe

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Re: Atmospheric/Perspective Effects
« Reply #21 on: February 08, 2008, 02:44:01 PM »
Quote from: jdoe on February 08, 2008, 02:35:20 PM
Do you have any evidence to back your claim?  There are a lot of people living on every corner of this earth.  Surely one of them would notice if day and night were not equal on the equinox.

Here is a table for sunset/sunrise times in Brisbane, Australia at around the equinox.

http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/astronomy.html?n=47&month=3&year=2008&obj=sun&afl=-11&day=1

Notice that on March 21 that day and night are approximately the same length.  There are plenty of people who use such data on a regular basis.  Someone would notice if they were egregiously wrong.
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Tom Bishop

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Re: Atmospheric/Perspective Effects
« Reply #22 on: February 08, 2008, 02:45:53 PM »
Quote
Here is a table for sunset/sunrise times in Brisbane, Australia at around the equinox.

http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/astronomy.html?n=47&month=3&year=2008&obj=sun&afl=-11&day=1

Notice that on March 21 that day and night are approximately the same length.  There are plenty of people who use such data on a regular basis.  Someone would notice if they were egregiously wrong.

That data is calculated and predicted by Faraday's model of the earth as a sphere. It's not raw personally collected data. Who went out and confirmed those figures?

Anyway, like I said, the circular spotlight of the sun grows larger when the sun is in its southern annulus. It's not surprising to see that some parts of the Southern Hemisphere receive longer days.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2008, 02:50:01 PM by Tom Bishop »
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Conspiracy Mastermind

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Re: Atmospheric/Perspective Effects
« Reply #23 on: February 08, 2008, 02:47:23 PM »
Quote from: Tom Bishop on February 08, 2008, 02:40:27 PM
Who has measured the time of day from every location on the earth during equinox?
No one Tom. Care to try it and report your findings? See you in a few lifetimes.
I could ask you to do that to prove that there isn't a 12 hour day and 12 hour night at every location on Earth.
The only thing you have to do is find one location, but you won't, because there isn't one.
But of course, even if you did, you never post any data, just words.

Now, how about you fix your theory. The seasons are still broken.
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Quote from: Tomcooper84
there is no optical light, there is just light and theres no other type of light unless you start talkling about energy saving lightbulbs compared to other types of light bulbs
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jdoe

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Re: Atmospheric/Perspective Effects
« Reply #24 on: February 08, 2008, 02:52:41 PM »
Quote from: Tom Bishop on February 08, 2008, 02:45:53 PM
Quote
Here is a table for sunset/sunrise times in Brisbane, Australia at around the equinox.

http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/astronomy.html?n=47&month=3&year=2008&obj=sun&afl=-11&day=1

Notice that on March 21 that day and night are approximately the same length.  There are plenty of people who use such data on a regular basis.  Someone would notice if they were egregiously wrong.

That data is calculated by Faraday's model of the earth as a sphere. It's not raw personally collected data. Who went out and confirmed those figures?

Anyway, like I said, the circular spotlight of the sun grows larger when the sun is in its southern annulus. It's not surprising to see that some parts of the Southern Hemisphere receive longer days.

Like I said, plenty of people use this data on a regular basis, astronomers, sailors, even religious groups.  Are you telling me they would not notice any discrepancies?  I challenge you to find a recent account of a person finding these sunrise/sunset tables to be conspicuously wrong.  You must back your theory with evidence.

Even if the spotlight grows larger in its southern annulus, think about what this does for the rest of the world.  The day-night would simply not be 12 hours for everyone else.  Face it, a circular spotlight is inconsistent with observation.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2008, 03:08:46 PM by jdoe »
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Trekky0623

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Re: Atmospheric/Perspective Effects
« Reply #25 on: February 09, 2008, 10:37:21 PM »
Tom, I started this topic a while ago.  YOU SAID ATMOSPHERIC DISTORTION MADE THIS EFFECT!!!!  PICK ONE!!!!
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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: Atmospheric/Perspective Effects
« Reply #26 on: February 10, 2008, 01:04:12 AM »
Careful, Trekky, this kind of paradox might make Tom short-circuit.  ;D
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Quote from: wise on August 21, 2018, 11:47:45 PM
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?
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Conspiracy Mastermind

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Re: Atmospheric/Perspective Effects
« Reply #27 on: February 10, 2008, 03:18:03 AM »
Quote from: Roundy the Intellectual Non-Conformist on February 10, 2008, 01:04:12 AM
Careful, Trekky, this kind of paradox might make Tom short-circuit.  ;D
What, you mean like:
Quote
1.Tom Bishop Believes atmospheric effects are the cause.
2.Tom Bishop believes atmospheric effects are not the cause.
3.Exactly one statement in this quote is true.
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Quote from: Tomcooper84
there is no optical light, there is just light and theres no other type of light unless you start talkling about energy saving lightbulbs compared to other types of light bulbs
ENaG: Evidence Not a Guarantee.
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