Religious experiences/spiritual enlightenment

Being a generally unserious person this isn't an easy thing for me to talk about but last night I had some kinda of spiritual enlightenment that I don't really think I can explain beyond saying I saw god, whilst walking in the woods late last night. It was quite possibly the most amazing experience of my life.

Now I know that people will rip on this because this is FES and thats what we do but I just wanted to know if anyone has some serious thoughts on this, if they've experienced something weird like that.

Being a generally unserious person this isn't an easy thing for me to talk about but last night I had some kinda of spiritual enlightenment that I don't really think I can explain beyond saying I saw god, whilst walking in the woods late last night. It was quite possibly the most amazing experience of my life.

Now I know that people will rip on this because this is FES and thats what we do but I just wanted to know if anyone has some serious thoughts on this, if they've experienced something weird like that.

I've read quite a bit on this for personal reasons.

I like to think of myself as an atheist.  However, I can't deny the importance of spirtual and mystical experience like this.

Can you elaborate any?  By "saw god" do you mean you saw something you said was god, or you saw god in everything?  How did you feel physically? How long did it take (and how long did it seem to take?)  Did you take anything from this experience (idealogy wise, or living your life different etc)?

I saw god, whilst walking in the woods late last night.

You really shouldn't drink alone, Gayer.  It's not healthy for you.

I'm kidding, sweetie.  You know I love you.   But seriously, most God "sightings" are the result of hallucinations, mistakes, or plain old lying.  Think about it.  Most people go through their lives without some major "epiphany" or "spiritual enlightenment".  Why would God go to some random yahoo and not appear to the all the millions of atheists out there?

Again, you're not a yahoo.  But you probably made a mistake.  I'm sorry.

Quote from: GeneralGayer on February 02, 2008, 04:36:53 PM

I saw god, whilst walking in the woods late last night.

You really shouldn't drink alone, Gayer.  It's not healthy for you.

I'm kidding, sweetie.  You know I love you.   But seriously, most God "sightings" are the result of hallucinations, mistakes, or plain old lying.  Think about it.  Most people go through their lives without some major "epiphany" or "spiritual enlightenment".  Why would God go to some random yahoo and not appear to the all the millions of atheists out there?

Again, you're not a yahoo.  But you probably made a mistake.  I'm sorry.

The fact that they can be caused by hallucinations or results of using drugs do not make them any less true or valid or important.

William James explains it much better than I ever could: http://www.psychwww.com/psyrelig/james/james2.htm#6

Read through the section on Medical-Materialism.

Well it's not easy to explain but it was more along the lines of seeing god in everything. It was a feeling of euphoria and lasted I guess around 15/20 minutes (intensly that is, I still had a kind of semi-euphoric feeling for the rest of the night), kinda hard to tell cos time didn't feel important. I don't really know what to take from the experience but it felt important but I don't see what changes it can make.

Quote from: Commander Saddam on February 02, 2008, 04:56:02 PM

Quote from: GeneralGayer on February 02, 2008, 04:36:53 PM

I saw god, whilst walking in the woods late last night.

You really shouldn't drink alone, Gayer.  It's not healthy for you.

I'm kidding, sweetie.  You know I love you.   But seriously, most God "sightings" are the result of hallucinations, mistakes, or plain old lying.  Think about it.  Most people go through their lives without some major "epiphany" or "spiritual enlightenment".  Why would God go to some random yahoo and not appear to the all the millions of atheists out there?

Again, you're not a yahoo.  But you probably made a mistake.  I'm sorry.

The fact that they can be caused by hallucinations or results of using drugs do not make them any less true or valid or important.

Are you sure about that?  Why would God appear in hallucinations and not, say, dreams, like He used to in the good old days of the Bible?  I doubt that God would want us to be doing drugs.

Well it's not easy to explain but it was more along the lines of seeing god in everything. It was a feeling of euphoria and lasted I guess around 15/20 minutes (intensly that is, I still had a kind of semi-euphoric feeling for the rest of the night), kinda hard to tell cos time didn't feel important. I don't really know what to take from the experience but it felt important but I don't see what changes it can make.

Uh, dumb question, but were you drunk or high when this happened?  It could be important.

Whats the difference between hallucinations and dreams?

IS the correct social action congratulation?
"well done on having your religious epiphany"?

I would say it doesnt matter even if he was stoned out of his mind on shrooms at the time. All that matters is that something happened that could potentially change his life for the better, good for him I say.

IS the correct social action congratulation?
"well done on having your religious epiphany"?

I would say it doesnt matter even if he was stoned out of his mind on shrooms at the time. All that matters is that something happened that could potentially change his life for the better, good for him I say.

Gayer is a she.  Yes, maybe I'm being a little skeptical here, but if something religious were to happen to me, I'd check it out carefully first.  I'm not sure what the point of God revealing Himself to Gayer is.

I think Oliwoli hit the nail on the head.  Whether it was a sickness, a drug, or just something that happened it is about what has happened and how it is an amazing experience that can eitehr change you or at least make you happy for a little while.

Congratulations, I hope you have more hehe.

Quote from: Username on February 02, 2008, 04:57:42 PM

Quote from: Commander Saddam on February 02, 2008, 04:56:02 PM

Quote from: GeneralGayer on February 02, 2008, 04:36:53 PM

I saw god, whilst walking in the woods late last night.

You really shouldn't drink alone, Gayer.  It's not healthy for you.

I'm kidding, sweetie.  You know I love you.   But seriously, most God "sightings" are the result of hallucinations, mistakes, or plain old lying.  Think about it.  Most people go through their lives without some major "epiphany" or "spiritual enlightenment".  Why would God go to some random yahoo and not appear to the all the millions of atheists out there?

Again, you're not a yahoo.  But you probably made a mistake.  I'm sorry.

The fact that they can be caused by hallucinations or results of using drugs do not make them any less true or valid or important.

Are you sure about that?  Why would God appear in hallucinations and not, say, dreams, like he used to in the good old days of the Bible?  I doubt that God would want us to be doing drugs.

Its not about God, though.

Uh, dumb question, but were you drunk or high when this happened?  It could be important.

I disagree.  While it would be preferred to have a mystical experience (imo) in a sober state, it is by no means important.

I think a distinction has to be made between a Religious experience and a Mystical or Spiritual Experience.

A mystical experience is what creates religions.  A religious genius as one who can move in and out of mystical experiences and can bring that to the common person in a much easier to grasp way.  It may not be as powerful as a real mystical experience, but it is what I believe, religion is there for.

Just like everyone is not an expert in farming or hunting.  We have agricultuer, mass production, etc to bring that to the average person.

This is FES, correct social actions aren't required, in fact they're usually frowned upon.

But I don't know if this could change my life for the better because I don't see what it changes (well except for wanting to walk in the woods at night more)


Saddam, my experience didn't seem like God was revealing himself to me, it was more like realising god or whatever you want to call it was there all the time and didn't need to be revealed.

Last time I gave a reasoned response to one of these questions or topics I was chided as being too reasonable, a prick who wants to ruin the fun of talking about lofty things. I'll risk that and go on by saying I'm happy for you being able to experience this kind of phenomenon. However, in saying that I can in now way endorse your idea that your experience must be god.

    It seems to me clear that there are many physiological or psychological phenomenon that cannot currently be explained or are not available to you. It happens all the time with chemically un-induced, naturally occurring hallucinations as well as illusions such as seeing ghosts (either physical or psychological illusion). As Sam Harris says, you can go into a cave for a year, have wonderful mystical experiences (many have) however it gives no or very little credence to the god hypothesis. If you were brought up in India you very well might have considered that feeling as being the spirit of Vishnu and Krishna or perhaps you temporarily experienced the concepts of nirvana or nibbana.

    To me such experiences can be likened to a long and drawn out orgasm. Perhaps not exactly however I believe it is possible to explain them biologically or at least psychologically. The orgasm is a wonderful experience that seems to transcend all reason or psychology and the world itself, a bliss of perfection. Could this not have been an unexpected mental orgasm? Perhaps not, but to say it must be god is to be intellectually lazy.(Not that I'm saying you make this claim, just my feelings on if you were to)

    It seems to me clear that there are many physiological or psychological phenomenon that cannot currently be explained or are not available to you. It happens all the time with chemically un-induced, naturally occurring hallucinations as well as illusions such as seeing ghosts (either physical or psychological illusion). As Sam Harris says, you can go into a cave for a year, have wonderful mystical experiences (many have) however it gives no or very little credence to the god hypothesis. If you were brought up in India you very well might have considered that feeling as being the spirit of Vishnu and Krishna or perhaps you temporarily experienced the concepts of nirvana or nibbana.

Perhaps it doesnt, but that is no reason to dismiss the experience. 

    To me such experiences can be likened to a long and drawn out orgasm. Perhaps not exactly however I believe it is possible to explain them biologically or at least psychologically. The orgasm is a wonderful experience that seems to transcend all reason or psychology and the world itself, a bliss of perfection. Could this not have been an unexpected mental orgasm? Perhaps not, but to say it must be god is to be intellectually lazy.(Not that I'm saying you make this claim, just my feelings on if you were to)

Again, this doesn't invalidate the experience. 

You can always boil it down to "oh he was on drugs"" or "he was sick" or "it was nice and all, but it doesn't really reveal anything of importance"  but it most definitely does - at least to her, and that is what matters.

Last time I gave a reasoned response to one of these questions or topics I was chided as being too reasonable, a prick who wants to ruin the fun of talking about lofty things. I'll risk that and go on by saying I'm happy for you being able to experience this kind of phenomenon. However, in saying that I can in now way endorse your idea that your experience must be god.

    It seems to me clear that there are many physiological or psychological phenomenon that cannot currently be explained or are not available to you. It happens all the time with chemically un-induced, naturally occurring hallucinations as well as illusions such as seeing ghosts (either physical or psychological illusion). As Sam Harris says, you can go into a cave for a year, have wonderful mystical experiences (many have) however it gives no or very little credence to the god hypothesis. If you were brought up in India you very well might have considered that feeling as being the spirit of Vishnu and Krishna or perhaps you temporarily experienced the concepts of nirvana or nibbana.

    To me such experiences can be likened to a long and drawn out orgasm. Perhaps not exactly however I believe it is possible to explain them biologically or at least psychologically. The orgasm is a wonderful experience that seems to transcend all reason or psychology and the world itself, a bliss of perfection. Could this not have been an unexpected mental orgasm? Perhaps not, but to say it must be god is to be intellectually lazy.(Not that I'm saying you make this claim, just my feelings on if you were to)

It was just easier to define it as god because I couldn't describe it. So yeah you're write, I was being intellectually lazy, fair point. But it was still something, no matter what its called.

Username makes a good point, this kind of thing can reveal something of importance to the person it affects, and that I guess is the important thing

Quote from: Benocrates on February 02, 2008, 05:11:38 PM

    It seems to me clear that there are many physiological or psychological phenomenon that cannot currently be explained or are not available to you. It happens all the time with chemically un-induced, naturally occurring hallucinations as well as illusions such as seeing ghosts (either physical or psychological illusion). As Sam Harris says, you can go into a cave for a year, have wonderful mystical experiences (many have) however it gives no or very little credence to the god hypothesis. If you were brought up in India you very well might have considered that feeling as being the spirit of Vishnu and Krishna or perhaps you temporarily experienced the concepts of nirvana or nibbana.

Perhaps it doesnt, but that is no reason to dismiss the experience. 

Quote

    To me such experiences can be likened to a long and drawn out orgasm. Perhaps not exactly however I believe it is possible to explain them biologically or at least psychologically. The orgasm is a wonderful experience that seems to transcend all reason or psychology and the world itself, a bliss of perfection. Could this not have been an unexpected mental orgasm? Perhaps not, but to say it must be god is to be intellectually lazy.(Not that I'm saying you make this claim, just my feelings on if you were to)

Again, this doesn't invalidate the experience. 

No it does not. However I am opposed to giving it a de facto explation of a supernatural experience. It is possible for it to be a physical or psychological experience. I'm not automatically rejecting its possible supernatural implications, I am purely saying it cannot be assumed to be religious or to validate religious claims.

Quote from: Username on February 02, 2008, 05:14:13 PM

Quote from: Benocrates on February 02, 2008, 05:11:38 PM

    It seems to me clear that there are many physiological or psychological phenomenon that cannot currently be explained or are not available to you. It happens all the time with chemically un-induced, naturally occurring hallucinations as well as illusions such as seeing ghosts (either physical or psychological illusion). As Sam Harris says, you can go into a cave for a year, have wonderful mystical experiences (many have) however it gives no or very little credence to the god hypothesis. If you were brought up in India you very well might have considered that feeling as being the spirit of Vishnu and Krishna or perhaps you temporarily experienced the concepts of nirvana or nibbana.

Perhaps it doesnt, but that is no reason to dismiss the experience. 

Quote

    To me such experiences can be likened to a long and drawn out orgasm. Perhaps not exactly however I believe it is possible to explain them biologically or at least psychologically. The orgasm is a wonderful experience that seems to transcend all reason or psychology and the world itself, a bliss of perfection. Could this not have been an unexpected mental orgasm? Perhaps not, but to say it must be god is to be intellectually lazy.(Not that I'm saying you make this claim, just my feelings on if you were to)

Again, this doesn't invalidate the experience. 

No it does not. However I am opposed to giving it a de facto explation of a supernatural experience. It is possible for it to be a physical or psychological experience. I'm not automatically rejecting its possible supernatural implications, I am purely saying it cannot be assumed to be religious or to validate religious claims.

But it's not trying to validate religious claims

You can always boil it down to "oh he was on drugs"" or "he was sick" or "it was nice and all, but it doesn't really reveal anything of importance"  but it most definitely does - at least to her, and that is what matters.

Maybe so.  Of course, I wasn't there and I didn't see what happened.  Only Gayer really knows.  I guess none of us are in a position to tell her if she's proved God exists, or if she's actually nuts.

I don't think its about "proving whether god exists" or not, but thats just my opinion.

It's certainly not about proving that god exists, it's about experiencing something felt like god or similar. I can't know what it was but that doesn't really matter, its the effect that matters.

Well, I hope it affects you positively in the future.

Right, you can call it "God" or "that warm fuzzy feeling" or "Jedt Jimbo Jones, the Fire Goddess", but what matters is what is taken from the experience, either during it or after it.   Even if you go and take it to believe in God, or Jimbo, thats obviously not proof;  however it is proof enough for you - it is your right to believe. Especially if belief in Jimbo helps your life on some level.  even if its just a "oh warm fuzzy feeling once" level.

An experience of self-realization?

I've had a lot of spiritual experiences.

Again, this doesn't invalidate the experience. 

No, but it makes additional explanations of it, such as "there actually is a god and the reason I had this experience is because he caused me to have it", entirely superfluous.

You can always boil it down to "oh he was on drugs"" or "he was sick" or "it was nice and all, but it doesn't really reveal anything of importance"  but it most definitely does - at least to her, and that is what matters.

You're absolutely right that the only person who can determine the importance of such an experience, in subjective terms, is the one who experienced it. However, it is entirely a different matter if you try to use such an experience to bolster objective claims about the nature of the universe, whether physical, metaphysical, or supernatural.

I'm a committed atheist, but I've had a number of experiences that I think are like what you meant, Gayer. It happens a lot when I'm doing long, repetitive sessions of exercise, and sometimes at other times if I'm reflecting.

I think the best way I can describe it is as 2 parts deja vu, 3 parts meditation. A sort of disconnected, airy, euphoric feeling. To me it doesn't have any sort of religious or spiritual implication, but I can easily see how someone with a different viewpoint would believe it to be so. (I'm not saying believing it to be religious or spiritual is wrong!)

Anyone that's had deja vu should have a little bit of an idea of the feeling I mean.

Try to recapture that feeling if you can

I'm a committed atheist, but I've had a number of experiences that I think are like what you meant, Gayer. It happens a lot when I'm doing long, repetitive sessions of exercise, and sometimes at other times if I'm reflecting.

I think the best way I can describe it is as 2 parts deja vu, 3 parts meditation. A sort of disconnected, airy, euphoric feeling. To me it doesn't have any sort of religious or spiritual implication, but I can easily see how someone with a different viewpoint would believe it to be so. (I'm not saying believing it to be religious or spiritual is wrong!)

Anyone that's had deja vu should have a little bit of an idea of the feeling I mean.

Try to recapture that feeling if you can

Yeah.  I too am an atheist and have had such experiences, some more powerful than others.

I believe the literature (which I agree with) defines a few qualities:
Ineffable, noetic, transient, and passive
I think these describe most mystical experiences very well.

Quote from: Username on February 02, 2008, 05:14:13 PM

Again, this doesn't invalidate the experience. 

No, but it makes additional explanations of it, such as "there actually is a god and the reason I had this experience is because he caused me to have it", entirely superfluous.

I wouldn't call the only thing gained from an experience superflous, but others might.

Quote

You can always boil it down to "oh he was on drugs"" or "he was sick" or "it was nice and all, but it doesn't really reveal anything of importance"  but it most definitely does - at least to her, and that is what matters.

You're absolutely right that the only person who can determine the importance of such an experience, in subjective terms, is the one who experienced it. However, it is entirely a different matter if you try to use such an experience to bolster objective claims about the nature of the universe, whether physical, metaphysical, or supernatural.

Thats obviously not what is happening here =-).  However it should be said, that at least in my opinion and others, that the experience at least gives you the Right to Believe. 

You feel a similar exhilaration when you win something....

Especially if it's a sporting event, like a football match. Or a bet worth a lot of money. The feeling in these situations is very similar to the spiritual moments.

Hence the saying: Football is not a sport. It is a religion.

That, and the occassional human sacrifices over an own goal in South America 

And Israel. Don't forget them.