Is Machiavelli right?

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Benocrates

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Is Machiavelli right?
« on: January 26, 2008, 08:35:35 PM »
   After reading The Prince I have had some trouble reconciling Machiavelli's conception of human nature and appropriate philosophical and political discourse with my own intuition. Are human beings by nature lying, cheating, stealing beings with social stability the most desirable and practical ends to political discourse or do we have the ability for harmony? The Prince claims human nature is driven by an insatiable appetite for power and that those who do not actively seek power due so only because they don't have the means to take it.
   
   Machiavelli believed that the philosophy of Plato and Aristotle, the study of ideal societies, was pure sophistry with no applicable use. He felt that instead of thinking of what should be we should be concerned only about what is.  With this reasoning he felt that the ideal society was one with complete social order at the expense of those who facilitate it. It seems he feels that human nature provides only two options, slavery or death. Either be unquestioningly loyal to a Prince or live in anarchic terror, a short, nasty and brutish Hobbesian life.
   
   My question is, do you think this is true? Something inside of me tells me that Machiavelli is missing an integral element to humanity that is in opposition to our selfish, power hungry urges. Is he ignoring Darwinian altruism at the most basic level and advanced human consciousness at a higher level? When you witness suffering do you not feel pain? Would you not feel the urge to die for your children or other family, in complete opposition to selfish gains? I'm not advocating an objective right or wrong in the world beyond survival, however I do believe there are other elements to humanity that cannot be discounted. What do you think?
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dysfunction

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Re: Is Machiavelli right?
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2008, 10:43:13 PM »
the cake is a lie

Re: Is Machiavelli right?
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2008, 10:45:17 PM »
The desire for greater power exists in all animals and thus all human beings, humans sometimes do destructive things to achieve this power. Successful societies manage to harness this desire and use it for the good of the society (see: capitalism). Religion could be seen as a mechanism to transform desire into positive actions in this way. Machiavelli was flawed in thinking the situation is A or B or a zero-sum, freedom or stability, the spectrum of modern governments shows this. There generally has to be both present to achieve a livable society though, or for a society that will survive the onslaughts of competing societies.

I haven't read The Prince, but Machiavelli also seems to be describing an apparent conflict between what is ideal and what is practical. It is true that ideal societies are impossible, because they require ideal people (see: the failed ideology of communism and the hundreds of failed Utopian societies founded in the United States). This doesn't make his society any better however, because it is idealistic in its desire for stability. You also have to remember the political turmoil that surrounded Machiavelli during his lifetime in Florence. And his society only approaches a rational choice if you are willing to give up everything else in return.

In regards to altruism, yes, this destroys Machiavelli's argument.

In short: He did it wrong.

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Re: Is Machiavelli right?
« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2008, 02:34:38 AM »
if I get slaves, he's right. If I'm a slave, he's wrong.
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Colonel Gaydafi

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Re: Is Machiavelli right?
« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2008, 07:20:44 AM »
It all depends on your viewpoint, a Realist would say Machiavelli was right, very right as far as Realism is concerned but of course an Idealist would disagree.
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Midnight

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Re: Is Machiavelli right?
« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2008, 07:56:23 AM »
Power is like food. It all ends up gone.
My problem with his ideas is that it is a ridiculous thing.

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Colonel Gaydafi

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Re: Is Machiavelli right?
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2008, 07:59:59 AM »
and in my belly
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Optimus Prime

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Re: Is Machiavelli right?
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2008, 09:05:18 AM »
GET IN MAH BELLY!!!

Ok, gotta git. later!
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fshy94

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Re: Is Machiavelli right?
« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2008, 09:15:39 AM »
I disagree. Human emotions have evolved to conform with game theory, which ingrains us with a push towards the most successful strategy, which is co-operation. Note our movement away from slavery, and I feel, most forms of discrimination. I don't count myself an idealist or realist, just so you know. That said, there will always be some human beings who do not follow this logic, as one person wrote(I forget who), "The irrationality of a thing is no argument against its existence, rather a condition of it"

You should look up prisoner's dilemma, if you haven't already.

EDIT: It was Nietzsche
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Colonel Gaydafi

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Re: Is Machiavelli right?
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2008, 11:18:34 AM »
I remember the prisoner's dilemma, frankly I thought it was one of the most pointless things I learnt about
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fshy94

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Re: Is Machiavelli right?
« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2008, 11:26:21 AM »
To us, it is, but it explains the evolution of human emotions. Since our emotions naturally cause us to co-operate, the prisoners dilemma seems remarkably obvious, but the trick is to get a computer to understand it, or a perfectly logical creature. Up until then, it was thought that many of our co-operative emotions were illogical...
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Re: Is Machiavelli right?
« Reply #11 on: January 28, 2008, 12:57:00 PM »
Our emotions don't naturally cause us to cooperate, they cause to seek our own ends it just sometimes coincides with cooperation
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Midnight

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Re: Is Machiavelli right?
« Reply #12 on: January 28, 2008, 05:47:38 PM »
Power is like food. It all ends up gone.
My problem with his ideas is that it is a ridiculous thing.

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Raist

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Re: Is Machiavelli right?
« Reply #13 on: January 28, 2008, 07:47:07 PM »
Power is like heroin. It ends up gone with you lower than you thought you were willing to go, and willing to go lower.

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divito the truthist

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Re: Is Machiavelli right?
« Reply #14 on: January 29, 2008, 05:23:11 AM »
The mind works towards self-interest (whether subconscious or conscious), and whether intentionally chosen or not. The form however (ie being altruistic or thinking that you are vs. a criminal), will differ in accordance with the variability of life in general (chaos).

So, to say mankind is of <said> nature is ridiculous and just plain stupid.

BTW - Nietzsche ftw.
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Midnight

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Re: Is Machiavelli right?
« Reply #15 on: January 29, 2008, 06:12:20 AM »
Nietzsche died. Fail.
My problem with his ideas is that it is a ridiculous thing.

Genius. PURE, undiluted genius.

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divito the truthist

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Re: Is Machiavelli right?
« Reply #16 on: January 29, 2008, 06:23:11 AM »
And so will Midnight.
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Midnight

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Re: Is Machiavelli right?
« Reply #17 on: January 29, 2008, 07:36:38 AM »
Thus the irony inherent in all discourse.
My problem with his ideas is that it is a ridiculous thing.

Genius. PURE, undiluted genius.

Re: Is Machiavelli right?
« Reply #18 on: January 29, 2008, 12:19:47 PM »
The Prince claims human nature is driven by an insatiable appetite for power and that those who do not actively seek power due so only because they don't have the means to take it.

I think this is his largest error. Human nature is driven by an insatiable urge to survive. Generally having power is conducive to that goal and so we also have an insatiable desire for power. However, it is important to note that survival comes first. Therefore, if power was not necessary for, or at least made it easier to survive, we would not desire it.

Furthermore, I think we have some understanding, perhaps mostly on a subconscious level, that our lives are limited and we should also desire to see the continuation of humanity as a whole, most notably in the form of our own offspring. Also, we understand pleasure and pain, happiness and misery, and prefer the former to the latter in both cases. While we often will persist in miserable circumstances because our most basic desire is survival, we also understand happiness is better and will work towards that, first for ourselves and then for others whenever possible. I would also maintain that selfish people, those who sadistically improve their own lives at every possible turn without a care and often at the cost of the happiness of others, actually suffer from a paranoid idea that there is only so much happiness to be had and if others have it that means you don't. In such a case your happiness necessitates the misery of others and if others are miserable you are more likely to be happy. Anybody read Fromm's Man for Himself?
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James

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Re: Is Machiavelli right?
« Reply #19 on: January 29, 2008, 02:41:39 PM »
He may well have had it entirely right on the idea that "what should be" is nonsense in light of "what is". This view has been espoused by a variety of contemporary philosophers: G Moore's famous adadge "one cannot derive an ought from an is", for example; Bertrand Russel's view of the universe as brute fact; Wittgenstein's "whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent".

I must admit, I really find it hard to come to any logically consistent argument for the existence of any objective moral framework (that is, any "should"s, "ought"s, "good"s, "evil"s, etc., etc). I'd be interested to know if anyone thinks they can.
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Benocrates

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Re: Is Machiavelli right?
« Reply #20 on: January 30, 2008, 02:37:37 PM »
He may well have had it entirely right on the idea that "what should be" is nonsense in light of "what is". This view has been espoused by a variety of contemporary philosophers: G Moore's famous adadge "one cannot derive an ought from an is", for example; Bertrand Russel's view of the universe as brute fact; Wittgenstein's "whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent".

I must admit, I really find it hard to come to any logically consistent argument for the existence of any objective moral framework (that is, any "should"s, "ought"s, "good"s, "evil"s, etc., etc). I'd be interested to know if anyone thinks they can.

    I am a strong fan of reducibility and think that very complex questions such as the Good, True and Beautiful and be reduced to the foundations and discovered as implicit or having to be deduced.
     
     When I think of the Good I am often tempted to say that there must be an implicit Good, the trickle down effect of Goodness. In this theory there must be an entity or agent of complete Good so that we (as imperfect beings) can strive to achieve. This makes it so easy for people to assume there must be a "god" or other ultimate entity. I think that just like when Newton gave up on balancing his equations for the stability of the solar system and said it must be god, saying that there must be a god for morality to exist is nothing more than a lack of imagination.

     Unfortunatly as a man of evidence I must ask myself what kind of proof is there for a standard of Goodness. The problem with religion is that all of its claims can only be validated after death and therefore serve no purpose in this debate. There seems so far in history to be no eternal judge that lives in our 4 dimentional world passing rulings on human actions as either Good or Not Good. Good people die horrible deaths and Bad people do too, while some of the most beautiful human achievments are taking place (journey to the moon) a threat of Mutually Assured Destruction hangs on the minds of the world. I believe this means we are left with looking inwards at what makes us human and what is good for us.
 
     We all know that Darwinian natural selection works for the benifit of the individual and its offspring. There is no Darwinian sense of group survival or even human kind survival, only of the individual and its genes. We also speculate that verying levels of altruism we all experience: Kinship altruism (survival of the gene) and Reciprical Altruism (game theory), are present due to their tendency for survival in their respective gene machines (life). We have also seen work in neuroscience reveal the presence of a mirror neuron that may be a genetically dominant feature in humans to feel physically affected when witnessing pain and suffering in others.
 
      With these biological accounts for altruism and by extention morality (preventing personal suffering for survival as well as the survival of others) by definition we can say humans are by nature social and moral. However, this means that morality only indicates fitness to survive in the grand scheme of evolution. Moral acts may specifically lead to a persons death (martyrdom) though the benifits to the human variants with this sense of altruism tended to survive better.
 
      So, is morality nothing more than an elaborate survival mechanism relying on emotion rather than reason to direct survivability? I think that there is one more piece of the puzzle that confuses the whole issue. Human consciousness, more specifically high reason is the variable that changed the realities of human evolution. With this high level reasoning we were able to go beyond what tends to cause survival for the reproducing agents the species and start making rules to do that for us. Instead of allowing nature to take its course we build up institutions and other frameworks of control to make not only a survivable society but one that avoids suffering.
 
     Instead of mere life (natural selection driven evolution) we now have life, one where we avoid suffering and seek pleasure. I believe in the search for an independant and eternal order of the Good beyond the harsh realities of pure survival we have made assumptions that have served as an actual detriment to human happiness. One example would be the outlook on homosexuality and bisexuality. With an objective view this practice offers absolutely no undue risk on survivability (ofcorse beyond the structure of societal hate) though by many is considered a moral evil. For those who are born gay or bisexual or even those who choose it (if that is infact possible) the life of having romantic relationships with other same sexed individuals leads to happiness and a more personally fulfilled life (again, beyond the social constraints).

     To conclude, I believe that this question comes down to a long and short answer. On one hand, there is an eternal morality however it is pure survivability, mere life. Human consciousness (once it came along) attempted to find something more than mere life. Sometimes it erred (homosexuality) however most of the time it has understood happiness. The golden rule isn't in existence because it follows a moral precept, it is because it leads to greater happiness for all parties involved (with occasional exceptions.) So, basicly I think that humans are predisposed to pure survival, mere life, and that sometimes altruism loses out to pure survival mechanisms (lying, cheating, etc) however human consciousness along with the altruistic dispositions can form what we commonly understand as "morality."
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divito the truthist

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Re: Is Machiavelli right?
« Reply #21 on: January 31, 2008, 04:20:31 AM »
Morality is a social construct. How or why it arose is subject to speculation.

Any tests outlining an interest in finding altruistic aspects in humans, such as one done awhile back by Scientific American Mind, will be tainted.
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Re: Is Machiavelli right?
« Reply #22 on: January 31, 2008, 07:29:16 PM »
Morality is present in every culture world over.

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: Is Machiavelli right?
« Reply #23 on: February 01, 2008, 12:01:26 AM »
Morality is a social construct. How or why it arose is subject to speculation.

Any tests outlining an interest in finding altruistic aspects in humans, such as one done awhile back by Scientific American Mind, will be tainted.

Subjective opinion.
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Midnight

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Re: Is Machiavelli right?
« Reply #24 on: February 01, 2008, 02:29:45 AM »
He may well have had it entirely right on the idea that "what should be" is nonsense in light of "what is". This view has been espoused by a variety of contemporary philosophers: G Moore's famous adadge "one cannot derive an ought from an is", for example; Bertrand Russel's view of the universe as brute fact; Wittgenstein's "whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent".

I must admit, I really find it hard to come to any logically consistent argument for the existence of any objective moral framework (that is, any "should"s, "ought"s, "good"s, "evil"s, etc., etc). I'd be interested to know if anyone thinks they can.

    I am a strong fan of reducibility and think that very complex questions such as the Good, True and Beautiful and be reduced to the foundations and discovered as implicit or having to be deduced.
     
     When I think of the Good I am often tempted to say that there must be an implicit Good, the trickle down effect of Goodness. In this theory there must be an entity or agent of complete Good so that we (as imperfect beings) can strive to achieve. This makes it so easy for people to assume there must be a "god" or other ultimate entity. I think that just like when Newton gave up on balancing his equations for the stability of the solar system and said it must be god, saying that there must be a god for morality to exist is nothing more than a lack of imagination.

     Unfortunatly as a man of evidence I must ask myself what kind of proof is there for a standard of Goodness. The problem with religion is that all of its claims can only be validated after death and therefore serve no purpose in this debate. There seems so far in history to be no eternal judge that lives in our 4 dimentional world passing rulings on human actions as either Good or Not Good. Good people die horrible deaths and Bad people do too, while some of the most beautiful human achievments are taking place (journey to the moon) a threat of Mutually Assured Destruction hangs on the minds of the world. I believe this means we are left with looking inwards at what makes us human and what is good for us.
 
     We all know that Darwinian natural selection works for the benifit of the individual and its offspring. There is no Darwinian sense of group survival or even human kind survival, only of the individual and its genes. We also speculate that verying levels of altruism we all experience: Kinship altruism (survival of the gene) and Reciprical Altruism (game theory), are present due to their tendency for survival in their respective gene machines (life). We have also seen work in neuroscience reveal the presence of a mirror neuron that may be a genetically dominant feature in humans to feel physically affected when witnessing pain and suffering in others.
 
      With these biological accounts for altruism and by extention morality (preventing personal suffering for survival as well as the survival of others) by definition we can say humans are by nature social and moral. However, this means that morality only indicates fitness to survive in the grand scheme of evolution. Moral acts may specifically lead to a persons death (martyrdom) though the benifits to the human variants with this sense of altruism tended to survive better.
 
      So, is morality nothing more than an elaborate survival mechanism relying on emotion rather than reason to direct survivability? I think that there is one more piece of the puzzle that confuses the whole issue. Human consciousness, more specifically high reason is the variable that changed the realities of human evolution. With this high level reasoning we were able to go beyond what tends to cause survival for the reproducing agents the species and start making rules to do that for us. Instead of allowing nature to take its course we build up institutions and other frameworks of control to make not only a survivable society but one that avoids suffering.
 
     Instead of mere life (natural selection driven evolution) we now have life, one where we avoid suffering and seek pleasure. I believe in the search for an independant and eternal order of the Good beyond the harsh realities of pure survival we have made assumptions that have served as an actual detriment to human happiness. One example would be the outlook on homosexuality and bisexuality. With an objective view this practice offers absolutely no undue risk on survivability (ofcorse beyond the structure of societal hate) though by many is considered a moral evil. For those who are born gay or bisexual or even those who choose it (if that is infact possible) the life of having romantic relationships with other same sexed individuals leads to happiness and a more personally fulfilled life (again, beyond the social constraints).

     To conclude, I believe that this question comes down to a long and short answer. On one hand, there is an eternal morality however it is pure survivability, mere life. Human consciousness (once it came along) attempted to find something more than mere life. Sometimes it erred (homosexuality) however most of the time it has understood happiness. The golden rule isn't in existence because it follows a moral precept, it is because it leads to greater happiness for all parties involved (with occasional exceptions.) So, basicly I think that humans are predisposed to pure survival, mere life, and that sometimes altruism loses out to pure survival mechanisms (lying, cheating, etc) however human consciousness along with the altruistic dispositions can form what we commonly understand as "morality."

One of the best posts I have ever seen on this site. I really enjoyed that, dude (or dudette).

I have much to think about.
My problem with his ideas is that it is a ridiculous thing.

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divito the truthist

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Re: Is Machiavelli right?
« Reply #25 on: February 01, 2008, 04:28:55 AM »
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Re: Is Machiavelli right?
« Reply #26 on: February 01, 2008, 05:56:21 PM »
Excellent post, Benocrates! I'm not sure I agree 100%, but it was a great read.

I don't believe there is such a thing as an objectively valid morality. Every theory of ethics/morality that I've ever been exposed to has at its core had an assumption: in deontological moral theories they are many and obvious (thou shalt not kill, etc); utilitarian systems assume that happiness (or preferences, virtue, or even survival) have some inherent moral weight. I can't see any logical way around making an assumption in forming an ethical framework, which to me renders any system ultimately subjective.

That said, most people (psychopaths being a possible exception) intuitively understand certain things as being good, and certain things as bad. That's likely a result of genetics, societal influences, etc. But even in light of genetically/societally programmed, generally accepted morals, there's no objective certainty or validity.

As for Machiavelli... I think I'm in a similar situation as you are, Benocrates. My cynical side sees a lot of truth in his views, but when I think of myself, my own views, my love of my family and even strangers, I intuitively rails against it.

That said, I think his philosophy holds true more on a macro-societal level, rather than an individual level. I think of it almost like economics: you can identify general trends and "laws" when looking at huge groups of people - eg. an interest rate hike should decrease economic activity; but while that is (generally speaking) true of a group, it is far, far less accurate and reliable when looking at individual people.

I hope that makes some sense :)

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Benocrates

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Re: Is Machiavelli right?
« Reply #27 on: February 01, 2008, 11:33:43 PM »
Thanks to everyone that liked my post. I think this is an issue on my mind lately because I've been doing a lot of thought into the Good. As you can tell I have been very interested in evolutionary theory, especially Richard Dawkins' outlook.

In regards to the post above me that discusses the subjectivity of morality. I would have to agree that morality primarily lies in the subjective area of study like the other humanities. However, I do think that scientific methods of study like statistics, behavior study, neuroscience, etc, can make certain areas of morality study objective or at more objective than it was. I am particularly interested in neuroscience and where it is going with developing a model of human consciousness.

   We do have to accept that we will probably never fully understand consciousness or our genetic dispositions. I do however think that morality should not simply be labeled as subjective and useless to be studied. I definitely don't have the answers but I really hope that those people who replied to my post are representative of more people who put some thought into this topic. I am honestly excited to see these questions being sincerely debated with an open mind.
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Re: Is Machiavelli right?
« Reply #28 on: February 02, 2008, 02:23:07 AM »
Oh, I couldn't agree more. While I don't think that moral theory can ever have a certain, objective base in the absence of some deity (just due to the sad logic of it), it is most definitely worth our time and effort; and in practical life, the subjectivity at its core really isn't that pressing. I think ethics is far more important, useful, and practical day-to-day than any other area of philosophical enquiry.

This is the most interesting and constructive thread I've read on this forum :D

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divito the truthist

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Re: Is Machiavelli right?
« Reply #29 on: February 02, 2008, 04:54:44 AM »
The only recurring aspect that presents itself alongside morality is that of self-interest. For an example, look at many of the 10 commandments. That is the closest you will ever get to an objective portion of it.
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