I need to get this problem cleared up.

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I need to get this problem cleared up.
« on: January 20, 2008, 03:07:32 PM »
There's a problem in FET which has probably plagued most REers. Satellites.

So far, I've seen two schools of thought, neither of which provides a good explanation. They don't exist, or they're planted by NASA

The main problem I have with this is that there's a lot more to satellites than NASA putting a few objects up there. A number of different groups have launched objects into space, including a few privately owned companies. Even more are involved in the manufacture of satellite parts and guidance systems. There's a vast number of Earth stations that listen to satellites, and I expect very few, if any, are controlled by NASA. No doubt thousands of people also have satellite dishes attached to their homes, pointing skywards.

GPS is also a small concern to me. I've seen the arguments that say you don't need a system of satellites to provide a GPS system, and I'm aware that you could run such a system without one. The system that's currently used, however, couldn't be. GPS receivers, in principle, generate a position based off of the delay between signals generated from the emitters. Trying to fool a civilian receiver into thinking that the objects it's receiving from are tens of thousands of kilometers up in the sky doesn't bear thinking about.

I really want to know how FE explains away satellites. Just dismissing them as part of the conspiracy gets a lot more people involved, and doesn't explain why dishes are pointed skywards.

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Colonel Gaydafi

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Re: I need to get this problem cleared up.
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2008, 03:12:07 PM »
I really want to know how FE explains away satellites. Just dismissing them as part of the conspiracy gets a lot more people involved, and doesn't explain why dishes are pointed skywards.

they're pointed skywards cos thats where the psuedolites are silly
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Re: I need to get this problem cleared up.
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2008, 03:16:46 PM »
So far, I've seen two schools of thought, neither of which provides a good explanation.

almost makes you think there is another more plausible explanation eh?

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TheEngineer

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Re: I need to get this problem cleared up.
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2008, 03:18:05 PM »
GPS is also a small concern to me. I've seen the arguments that say you don't need a system of satellites to provide a GPS system, and I'm aware that you could run such a system without one. The system that's currently used, however, couldn't be. GPS receivers, in principle, generate a position based off of the delay between signals generated from the emitters. Trying to fool a civilian receiver into thinking that the objects it's receiving from are tens of thousands of kilometers up in the sky doesn't bear thinking about.
The receiver does not care where the signals came from or whether it took 5 seconds or .5 seconds.


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Re: I need to get this problem cleared up.
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2008, 03:32:37 PM »
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The receiver does not care where the signals came from or whether it took 5 seconds or .5 seconds.

The receiver needs to know where the signals came from and the delay between the signals. That's how it works out it's position. A GPS receiver takes the position encoded in the signal and uses the time delay between the signals to position itself in relation to the satellites. It then converts that position into a form the user can understand, for example longitude and latitude.


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they're pointed skywards cos thats where the psuedolites are silly

Well, whatever you want to call them, they are still up there. A company must have put them up there, and would need a fairly good idea of how to make something stay up there beforehand.

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TheEngineer

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Re: I need to get this problem cleared up.
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2008, 03:33:37 PM »
The receiver needs to know where the signals came from and the delay between the signals. That's how it works out it's position. A GPS receiver takes the position encoded in the signal and uses the time delay between the signals to position itself in relation to the satellites. It then converts that position into a form the user can understand, for example longitude and latitude.
Right.   ???


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Colonel Gaydafi

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Re: I need to get this problem cleared up.
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2008, 03:36:57 PM »



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they're pointed skywards cos thats where the psuedolites are silly

Well, whatever you want to call them, they are still up there. A company must have put them up there, and would need a fairly good idea of how to make something stay up there beforehand.

Course they would know how to make psuedolites stay up there otherwise they couldn't get them up there  ::)
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Re: I need to get this problem cleared up.
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2008, 03:40:31 PM »
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Right.

Well, I'll pose the question to you: How can you work out your position without using the distance from emitters and without knowing where the emitters are?


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Course they would know how to make psuedolites stay up there otherwise they couldn't get them up there

How would they know what distance up to put them? And once they've got them up there, how do they know where they will be? 

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Colonel Gaydafi

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Re: I need to get this problem cleared up.
« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2008, 03:41:54 PM »
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Course they would know how to make psuedolites stay up there otherwise they couldn't get them up there

How would they know what distance up to put them? And once they've got them up there, how do they know where they will be? 

How the hell would I know? I'm not one of them.
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TheEngineer

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Re: I need to get this problem cleared up.
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2008, 03:42:35 PM »
Trying to fool a civilian receiver into thinking that the objects it's receiving from are tens of thousands of kilometers up in the sky doesn't bear thinking about.
That is the part I was referencing.  The receiver does not care whether the transmitter is far away or close, as long as it knows the transmitter's current time and position.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2008, 04:05:18 PM by TheEngineer »


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Re: I need to get this problem cleared up.
« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2008, 04:00:02 PM »
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How the hell would I know? I'm not one of them.

Then how do they know and perform the required calculations to launch an object into orbit above the FE without knowing the planet is flat?


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That is the part I was referencing.  The receiver does not care whether or not the transmitter is far away or close, as long as it knows the transmitter's current time and position.

I would expect it needs to know whether the transmitter is far away or close,as it uses it's distance to the transmitter to calculate it's position.

You could have the transmitters broadcasting with a purposeful delay to make the receiver think it's further from the transmitter than it actually is and allow you to position the transmitter closer to the receiver, but things get difficult when you try to map out where you could put the transmitters and still fool the receivers elsewhere around the planet.

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Colonel Gaydafi

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Re: I need to get this problem cleared up.
« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2008, 04:01:27 PM »
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How the hell would I know? I'm not one of them.

Then how do they know and perform the required calculations to launch an object into orbit above the FE without knowing the planet is flat?



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How the hell would I know? I'm not one of them.
Quote from: WardoggKC130FE
If Gayer doesn't remember you, you might as well do yourself a favor and become an hero.
Quote from: Raa
there is a difference between touching a muff and putting your hand into it isn't there?

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TheEngineer

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Re: I need to get this problem cleared up.
« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2008, 04:04:53 PM »
The receiver does not care whether the transmitter is far away or close, as long as it knows the transmitter's current time and position.


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
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Re: I need to get this problem cleared up.
« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2008, 04:11:10 PM »
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How the hell would I know? I'm not one of them.

I think my basic question is, as you can probably guess, how do they do everything from a FE point of view without knowing the earth is flat? Wouldn't they just perform the calculations based off of a RE model and then watch the launched objects fly off into space/come crashing back down to earth?


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The receiver does not care whether the transmitter is far away or close, as long as it knows the transmitter's current time and position.

So how does it know where it is, if it doesn't know how far it is from the transmitter?

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Tom Bishop

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Re: I need to get this problem cleared up.
« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2008, 04:19:59 PM »
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Well, whatever you want to call them, they are still up there. A company must have put them up there, and would need a fairly good idea of how to make something stay up there beforehand.

Only Government contractors launch satellites into space.

Direct TV doesn't have a launchpad.  ::)

Re: I need to get this problem cleared up.
« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2008, 04:27:55 PM »
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Only Government contractors launch satellites into space.

There are a few private companies out there that are capable of launching a satellite into space.

Besides, there a fairly large number of governments out there that can launch objects into orbit. It's not all done under the watch of NASA.

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Colonel Gaydafi

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Re: I need to get this problem cleared up.
« Reply #16 on: January 20, 2008, 04:45:41 PM »
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How the hell would I know? I'm not one of them.

I think my basic question is, as you can probably guess, how do they do everything from a FE point of view without knowing the earth is flat? Wouldn't they just perform the calculations based off of a RE model and then watch the launched objects fly off into space/come crashing back down to earth?


I dunno, maybe the RE calculations work for them..
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If Gayer doesn't remember you, you might as well do yourself a favor and become an hero.
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TheEngineer

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Re: I need to get this problem cleared up.
« Reply #17 on: January 20, 2008, 05:59:44 PM »
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The receiver does not care whether the transmitter is far away or close, as long as it knows the transmitter's current time and position.

So how does it know where it is, if it doesn't know how far it is from the transmitter?
It does know.   ???

It does not care what that distance is, as long as it knows where the transmitter is and what the current time is.


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fshy94

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Re: I need to get this problem cleared up.
« Reply #18 on: January 20, 2008, 06:13:30 PM »
Look, if I may be so bold as to interject my professional opinion  ;D

You guys are both right, in a way. If the handheld device does the calculations, then NtheGreat is correct. If the pseudolite/satellite/ground based transmitter does the calculations, then Engy is. Now, we need to find out who receives the raw data, and calculates based off of that. I'm inclined to think that the handheld does the calculations, but I'm not sure. Unless, the ground based transmitters/pseudolites do some sophisticated communications between themselves, figure out where the GPS device is independently, and then fake their own data to make themselves appear higher, then only can the handheld do the calculations.

EDIT:
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It does not care what that distance is, as long as it knows where the transmitter is and what the current time is.

What? It must know...it calculates distance based on signal strength. Doesn't it???? If all it had were the locations of the transmitter, then, you'd have no location whatsoever. It needs signal strength information, from which it roughly calculates distance. Combine that with several extra satellites/whatevers doing the same thing, and voila, you have location? I miss something?
« Last Edit: January 20, 2008, 06:17:26 PM by fshy94 »
Proof the Earth is round!
http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=19341.0

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Optimus Prime

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Re: I need to get this problem cleared up.
« Reply #19 on: January 20, 2008, 07:17:05 PM »
Guys, take a pill, I'm pretty sure what Engy is saying is this:

Who cares how strong the transmitter is or where it is as long as you have the following:

Say you've got 4 transmission sources.
You've got a receiver.

The receiver could care less where they are or how powerful they are as long as it is receiving a signal from some or all of them.
The incoming signal tells the device - "hey, I'm located here. The time is blah:blah:blah. whatever else you need. End beacon packet"
The receiver takes signal strength and beacon information from all sources, and calculates it's position from each.
Therefore... whatever software - internal or otherwise - it shoots the info to it and bang... location served!

Now then, I think the only debate is how GPS vs. something like cell phone location works.
GPS can't work without sky-based / orbital transmission-location, and cell phone positioning works on a limited and not as accurate basis - limited by a ground / tower based system.

GPS simply won't work with the accuracy and range it has without sky-based transmission sources. Cell-phone positioning works fine the way it does with tower-based transmission. Both systems prove the other.
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Tom Bishop

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Re: I need to get this problem cleared up.
« Reply #20 on: January 20, 2008, 07:19:12 PM »
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There are a few private companies out there that are capable of launching a satellite into space.

And all of whom are government contractors.

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Optimus Prime

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Re: I need to get this problem cleared up.
« Reply #21 on: January 20, 2008, 07:23:56 PM »
Pft. Back that up with some evidence Tom. I'd like to know and see some resources on how you know that. Proving any you provide are in whole.. all of the companies capable of the task, and documentation that they are government contractors.

Your favourite line prevails here... Have you any evidence to back up your outlandish claim?

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TheEngineer

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Re: I need to get this problem cleared up.
« Reply #22 on: January 20, 2008, 07:32:25 PM »
What? It must know...it calculates distance based on signal strength. Doesn't it????
No, it calculates distance based on time stamp of the received signal and the receiver's current time.

Quote
If all it had were the locations of the transmitter, then, you'd have no location whatsoever. It needs signal strength information, from which it roughly calculates distance. Combine that with several extra satellites/whatevers doing the same thing, and voila, you have location? I miss something?
See above.


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
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TheEngineer

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Re: I need to get this problem cleared up.
« Reply #23 on: January 20, 2008, 07:33:12 PM »
Guys, take a pill, I'm pretty sure what Engy is saying is this:

Who cares how strong the transmitter is or where it is as long as you have the following:

Say you've got 4 transmission sources.
You've got a receiver.
Exactly.


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
        -- Bob Hudson

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fshy94

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Re: I need to get this problem cleared up.
« Reply #24 on: January 20, 2008, 08:04:43 PM »
EDIT: OK, it does detect distance, but only by time delay of light. Read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudorange

We were both wrong :D

At any rate, it matters little, because the distance is necessary, and that distance must be used for calculations. Otherwise you wouldn't have a location, you'd have a very wide range of possible locations, sorta like a cell-tower location. I still hold that the pseudolites would have to have a sophisticated lying system in order to pretend they weren't where they were.
Proof the Earth is round!
http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=19341.0

Quote from: Althalus
The conspiracy has made it impossible to adequately explain FE theory in English.
^^LOL!

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Trekky0623

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Re: I need to get this problem cleared up.
« Reply #25 on: January 20, 2008, 08:28:29 PM »
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Well, whatever you want to call them, they are still up there. A company must have put them up there, and would need a fairly good idea of how to make something stay up there beforehand.

Only Government contractors launch satellites into space.

Direct TV doesn't have a launchpad.  ::)

The obviously have satellites, since they deorbited one.

EDIT: LOL


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mufasa

Re: I need to get this problem cleared up.
« Reply #26 on: January 20, 2008, 08:50:21 PM »
Let me tell you, I'm one-hundred and ten percent FEer. Why else would maps be flat?

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Optimus Prime

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Re: I need to get this problem cleared up.
« Reply #27 on: January 20, 2008, 08:54:39 PM »
Let me tell you, I'm one-hundred and ten percent FEer. Why else would maps be flat?

For people that say One hundred - and ten percent? ;D
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TheEngineer

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Re: I need to get this problem cleared up.
« Reply #28 on: January 21, 2008, 03:00:15 AM »
We were both wrong :D
What was I wrong about?

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the distance is necessary, and that distance must be used for calculations.
Obviously.    ???

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I still hold that the pseudolites would have to have a sophisticated lying system in order to pretend they weren't where they were.
Once again, the receivers don't care where the signal comes from. 


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
        -- Bob Hudson

Re: I need to get this problem cleared up.
« Reply #29 on: January 21, 2008, 03:18:50 AM »
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Once again, the receivers don't care where the signal comes from.
I really cannot see how a system could possibly work out where it is, if it doesn't know where it is in relation to anything. The signal could be broadcast from anywhere else in range, but part of the signal that GPS transmitters broadcast is a reference to where the transmitter is in orbit.

You could broadcast this signal from somewhere else, for example a ground based station, but if the transmitter isn't where it says it is, the receiver isn't going to be where it says it is. GIGO, so to speak.