Clarification on Gravity

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nickD

Re: Clarification on Gravity
« Reply #900 on: February 04, 2009, 09:55:14 AM »
if there is no gravity, why dosn't a feather fall as fast as a rock when dropped? This completly throws the idea of shooting up at a rate of 9.8m/s out the window. ;D

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niceguybut

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Re: Clarification on Gravity
« Reply #901 on: February 04, 2009, 11:02:40 AM »
if there is no gravity, why dosn't a feather fall as fast as a rock when dropped? This completly throws the idea of shooting up at a rate of 9.8m/s out the window. ;D

Air resistance.
"The Zetetic Astronomy has come into my hands ... if it be childish, it is clever; if it be mannish, it is unusually foolish."

A Budget of Paradoxes - A. de Morgan (pp 306-310)

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: Clarification on Gravity
« Reply #902 on: February 05, 2009, 11:03:22 AM »
if there is no gravity, why dosn't a feather fall as fast as a rock when dropped?

Because this result has absolutely nothing to do with gravity.
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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Dr Matrix

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Re: Clarification on Gravity
« Reply #903 on: February 05, 2009, 01:14:53 PM »
if there is no gravity, why dosn't a feather fall as fast as a rock when dropped? This completly throws the idea of shooting up at a rate of 9.8m/s out the window. ;D

Fail.

Because this result has absolutely nothing to do with gravity.

Win.
Quote from: Arthur Schopenhauer
All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.

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fenterb

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Re: Clarification on Gravity
« Reply #904 on: February 09, 2009, 03:57:28 AM »
Thought you might be interested to know a simple elegant standard model has been developed that incorporates both special relativity and quantum mechanics, a theory of everything.  Gravity is not 'magic', it is caused by bending of the space time continoum as predicted by Einstein, and as proven every time we have an eclipse and measure the bending of the light of nearby stars.

Hopefully results from the large hadron supercollider will confirm this theory by measuring the new particles it predicts, and we can put a stop to this silly thread.

Read it here
http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/0711/0711.0770v1.pdf

Article
http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/2007/11/how-a-surfer--1.html

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bowler

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Re: Clarification on Gravity
« Reply #905 on: February 09, 2009, 03:15:36 PM »
I'd not read Lisi's paper but I might now i've been explicitly been given the link. I personally feel we will be lucky to find the graviton at the LHC. Though I think finding some hints as to its nature is far from out of the question. Personally im rooting for large extra dimensions, I prefer it as a theory, mostly because it seems more elegant to me.

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svenanders

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Re: Clarification on Gravity
« Reply #906 on: February 09, 2009, 04:28:47 PM »
I'd not read Lisi's paper but I might now i've been explicitly been given the link. I personally feel we will be lucky to find the graviton at the LHC. Though I think finding some hints as to its nature is far from out of the question. Personally im rooting for large extra dimensions, I prefer it as a theory, mostly because it seems more elegant to me.

They'll find the absence of the graviton. Which means that it escaped to another dimension. :)

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bowler

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Re: Clarification on Gravity
« Reply #907 on: February 09, 2009, 04:41:48 PM »
A possibility though of course its not a given there is a graviton. Large extra dimension or supersymmetry if we find the graviton at the LHC then the hierarchy problem becomes a bit more perplexing.

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TheEngineer

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Re: Clarification on Gravity
« Reply #908 on: February 09, 2009, 07:08:51 PM »
None of that has any bearing on this topic.


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
        -- Bob Hudson

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svenanders

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Re: Clarification on Gravity
« Reply #909 on: February 10, 2009, 12:16:53 AM »
None of that has any bearing on this topic.

Yes is does. It has a lot to do with gravity Mr. Raist.

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bowler

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Re: Clarification on Gravity
« Reply #910 on: February 10, 2009, 01:13:48 AM »
It has everything to do with this thread.

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cbarnett97

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Re: Clarification on Gravity
« Reply #911 on: February 10, 2009, 03:41:03 AM »
It has everything to do with this thread.
You have to excuse him, they do not talk about the graviton in Wiki.
Only 2 things are infinite the universe and human stupidity, but I am not sure about the former.

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TheEngineer

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Re: Clarification on Gravity
« Reply #912 on: February 10, 2009, 05:42:10 AM »
This thread is about the difference between gravity and gravitation.

Learn to read, children.


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
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svenanders

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Re: Clarification on Gravity
« Reply #913 on: February 10, 2009, 06:02:26 AM »
This thread is about the difference between gravity and gravitation.

Learn to read, children.

The title in this thread is "Gravity". I then presume that we are allowed to talk about things
that has to do with gravity. Like finding the graviton. Stop being so damn picky!

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fenterb

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Re: Clarification on Gravity
« Reply #914 on: February 10, 2009, 06:08:26 AM »
I'm surprised you find string theory and extra dimensions more elegant, surely a simple model is more elegant!

Also the LHC doesnt have to explicitly find the graviton, (it's not designed to do so anyway).  The graviton is a virtual particle and we 'invented' it only to describe the exchange of information.  It's not a deal breaker.   If the LHC proves this new theory of everything to be correct by finding particles it predicts, then there will be no 'holes' in our understanding of physics for the idiots on this forum to exploit.

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bowler

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Re: Clarification on Gravity
« Reply #915 on: February 10, 2009, 07:17:08 AM »
Well the there is only a difference if you are postulating that the source of inertial mass on Earth is different to that on other planets. I assume that you are saying that the Earth only looks to have a gravitational field because it is accelerating upwards at 9.81m/s. But the equivalence principle is telling us something very fundamental about the nature of the gravitational coupling and a bodies resistance to acceleration, we don't know what yet. I'm not arguing that naively one could think the Earth is an upward accelerating flat shape, though the rate of the acceleration is bizzrely dependent on where in the world you are, if you assume its flat. If you assume its spherical then a pattern emerges. But let me give it a go anyway in a minute. The Earth must have a gravitational interaction from its mass as well. The equivalence principle is a two way thing.

Lets assume the world is a disc ending at the Antarctic as I've not heard of anyone falling off (maybe that why Oates' walk took so long). I assume that using the Antarctic as the discontinuity involves calling the fewest people liars. Ok to give the Earth a diameter ill generally use the distance we have today, most of the world has been driven Canada-Chilie, France-Korea the length of Africa. So Ill assume that the radius of a disc Earth is of order 12'000km (the length of the Americas plus a bit for good luck). The depth of the Earth becomes a bit of a challenge I suppose. We can estimate the mass of the Iron needed to make our field. Or look at seismic data, well I'll plump for a middle of the road, conservative 3'000km to minimise the number of scientists that need to be in on the conspiracy. That gives the Earth a volume of 36'000'000'000'000 cubic metres. If we assume its made of water (absurdly conservative but i don't care) which ways 1 tonne per cubic meter that gives us a grand total of 36'000'000'000'000Kg. So the Earth is not light with the exception of the radius every one of those calculations was absurdly conservative so the gravitational mass of the Earth is relevant. So the discussion as to the nature of gravity is as important on Earth as it is everywhere else. If the Earth weighed a tonne then I'd probably agree with you.

Part two might be on the action of the universe if the whole universe is accelerating at 9.81 m/s in the same direction. Though I can't really be bothered because if you have decided the world is flat, lets be honest a reasoned argument is unlikely to change your mind. Because every thread comes back to a conspiracy theory so really science has nothing to do with it, other than showing off that you've found the wiki page for teh equivalence principle or a dusty high school physics text book.

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bowler

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Re: Clarification on Gravity
« Reply #916 on: February 10, 2009, 07:25:04 AM »
I find large extra dimensions more elegant. Theres no way around a sticky problem between quantum field theory and general relativity. While quantum mechanics is my thing theres no denying that general relativity is perhaps a more elegant theory, unfortunately its only real flaw is a damn huge one, renormalization. We are left with a hierarchy problem and the two ways around it and my favorite happens to be that gravity is spread over more dimensions. Its perfectly allowed to have supersymmetry at low (LHC) energies and then a big gap to the Planck scale though I find this less appealing. Also if we can find this stuff at the LHC we may be able to master some if in my lifetime which personally will be fun, though I have no scientific basis for thinking it.

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fenterb

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Re: Clarification on Gravity
« Reply #917 on: February 10, 2009, 07:50:52 AM »
I've generally fallen behind on the subject since I finished my physics degree (a decade ago now!), but as far as I can tell there wont be any sticky problems remaining if Lisi's paper turns out to be true.  Have I missed something?

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fenterb

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Re: Clarification on Gravity
« Reply #918 on: February 10, 2009, 08:33:32 AM »
I found your reply ;)

Well responses vary I suppose, some are very keen and others are not so keen.  I suspect the latter are people who've spent a lot of time working on alternative theories :P

I guess we'll have to wait and see on this one, it needs a lot of padding out before its complete.  but hopefully some experimental data will encourage others to take this direction!

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TheEngineer

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Re: Clarification on Gravity
« Reply #919 on: February 10, 2009, 07:53:18 PM »
Like I stated earlier, this has nothing to do with the topic.  Take this elsewhere.


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
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bowler

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Re: Clarification on Gravity
« Reply #920 on: February 11, 2009, 01:29:05 AM »
You stated doesn't make you right. How come no one noticed my quick calculation isn't even dimensionally consistent. Whats the point of finding hard references if no one even checks I can work out the area of a circle. And a discussion of gravity is relevant here. People have been patting themselves on the back that they understand the equivalence principle, which has been known for hundreds of years. Only if the mass of the Earth is negligible can you ignore gravity as a source of gravitation. So as I say it has everything to do with the topic.

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Jack

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Re: Clarification on Gravity
« Reply #921 on: February 11, 2009, 02:26:39 AM »
gravity as a source of gravitation.
???

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bowler

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Re: Clarification on Gravity
« Reply #922 on: February 11, 2009, 02:39:10 AM »
ooops wrong way round

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bowler

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Re: Clarification on Gravity
« Reply #923 on: February 11, 2009, 02:40:15 AM »
In my defense this is about the only place i don't use the term interchangeably.

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cbarnett97

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Re: Clarification on Gravity
« Reply #924 on: February 11, 2009, 02:59:18 AM »
In my defense this is about the only place i don't use the term interchangeably.
That this is the only place that you cant aside from an official report is reslly sad. I think it is funny that the same people who jump all over you for using the term gravity probably go to the butcher and have no problem ordering 2 pounds of meat or 2 kilograms of chicken.
Only 2 things are infinite the universe and human stupidity, but I am not sure about the former.

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TheEngineer

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Re: Clarification on Gravity
« Reply #925 on: February 11, 2009, 04:50:08 AM »
You stated doesn't make you right. blah...blah...blah...So as I say it has everything to do with the topic.
This thread is about the difference between gravity and gravitation.  And specifically, the fact that gravity as a force, does not exist.

the same people who jump all over you for using the term gravity probably go to the butcher and have no problem ordering 2 pounds of meat.
I have no problem doing that.   :-\ 

I do love my porterhouses...


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
        -- Bob Hudson

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niceguybut

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Re: Clarification on Gravity
« Reply #926 on: February 11, 2009, 05:25:28 AM »
You stated doesn't make you right. blah...blah...blah...So as I say it has everything to do with the topic.
This thread is about the difference between gravity and gravitation.  And specifically, the fact that gravity as a force, does not exist.

For the sake of getting this clear in my head, and also for establishing where I'm wrong if I am, as I understand it the force in question is actually weight, with "gravity" being the term used for the acceleration caused by the gravitational attraction of the earth in RET, so substituting terms in the equation F=ma, weight=mass x acceleration caused by gravitational attraction of the earth. 

Am I right so far?  If so, can we accept that "gravity" is just less of a mouthful to say or pain in the arse to type than "acceleration caused by gravitational attraction of the earth", and hopefully put an end to the endless semantic arguments about terminology?  I agree that gravity is not the same as gravitation, but by hopefully getting a RE definition of gravity out there the debate can hopefully move on to more productive areas, such as what actually causes gravitation, etc.

If I'm wrong of course, I'd appreciate a pointer on where I've erred.

Cheers all.
"The Zetetic Astronomy has come into my hands ... if it be childish, it is clever; if it be mannish, it is unusually foolish."

A Budget of Paradoxes - A. de Morgan (pp 306-310)

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bowler

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Re: Clarification on Gravity
« Reply #927 on: February 11, 2009, 05:32:50 AM »
One can model a car as a cuboid with 4 wheels. Is this correct? Probably not its an how one can picture a car and its accuracy depends very much on the model and age of the car.

I can and often will model light as a ray. Is this correct? Well it is under normal conditions however as anyone who as worked with multi-mode fibre will know it cannot model second order effects, not important if your designing a pair of glasses but very important if your making certain fibre optics. Now we try modelling light as a wave using Maxwells Equations, is this correct? Well its more correct than the last approximation, while computationally expensive and often overkill solving Maxwells equations will correctly predict most of what we see in everyday life. However as any atomic physicist will tell you it cannot explain the spectral lines we see from atoms. Infact it can't explain some strangely everyday phenomenon such as the spectrum of EM radiation from an oven. Now we turn to the photon and quantum electrodynamics. Here we find the most fundamental explanation, for everyday situations beyond practical computation for say fibre modelling but it is the most complete explanation we have when combined with quantum field theory. Is it complete? No, it isnt there is still muc we don't know and this I guarantee is no the final interpretation of light.

Now gravity, this has been through fewer iterations but the principle is the same. For many years we thought of gravity as a classical field since Newton. Mathematically correct for low (on the astro scale) masses and slow speeds. Also as has been pointed out Newtons classical field theory lacks an interpretation of what the field is, though this has never stopped us in the past. After Einstein we can think of gravity as following a geodesic through space-time. However as with the photon we know that this cannot be the final theory of gravity. General relativity is not renormalizeable not can does it work with quantum particles. Gravity must be included in a full Lagrangian to describe the motion of a particle to get the correct answers. General relativity is not a final theory of gravity, what we were talking about is the next set of experiments trying to peel the next layer off the onion. So as I was saying this thread is very much about gravity.

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bowler

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Re: Clarification on Gravity
« Reply #928 on: February 11, 2009, 07:02:15 AM »
Gravity - The force that attracts bodies to the Earth.
Gravitation - The general principle that massive bodies seem to pull each other together.

These terms are (I guess, technically incorrectly) tend to be used interchangeably.

My point was simply one of interpretation. General relativity does blur the border between a fictitious and non-fictitious force. Though there are differences. In a force such as centrifugal or centripetal force one can transform to a frame where there appears to be a flat space-time. This is not true with gravity. There is also a second point one can also formulate gravity as a quantum field in the same way as the other fundamental forces that gives the same result of general relativity in the classical limit. My general point is simply that interpretation on these theories is not as simple as is made out here. We know quantum mechanics and general relativity can not be the final theories of their respective regimes, they are approximations based on what we know so far. Though I think that gravity does have an intimate relationship to the structure of space. Though the full picture is far from clear.

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niceguybut

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Re: Clarification on Gravity
« Reply #929 on: February 11, 2009, 07:07:29 AM »
Cool, that helps, thanks.
"The Zetetic Astronomy has come into my hands ... if it be childish, it is clever; if it be mannish, it is unusually foolish."

A Budget of Paradoxes - A. de Morgan (pp 306-310)