Clarification on Gravity

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sokarul

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Re: Clarification on Gravity
« Reply #720 on: September 22, 2008, 01:27:33 PM »
Part of the equivalences principle says a closed box in free-fall will yield the same results as a closed box in outer space with no gravitation present. Now why would that be important if the box in free-fall wasn't doing anything?  It would be like saying 5=5.  That's not going to get you famous.

Saying that 1 = -1 might, though.

Bending light theory get you famous? 
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Parsifal

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Re: Clarification on Gravity
« Reply #721 on: September 22, 2008, 01:31:40 PM »
Bending light theory get you famous? 

It isn't my fault if people aren't ready to accept the truth that light does not always travel in straight lines.
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sokarul

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Re: Clarification on Gravity
« Reply #722 on: September 22, 2008, 01:33:50 PM »
Bending light theory get you famous? 

It isn't my fault if people aren't ready to accept the truth that light does not always travel in straight lines.

Jee, who would of thought people wouldn't believe something you pulled out of your ass? 
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Dr Matrix

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Re: Clarification on Gravity
« Reply #723 on: September 22, 2008, 01:55:11 PM »
Sokarul - what other information would you require in the diagram? If you would like the velocities of each case, what would like them with respect to? Which of these observers is at 'rest'? Any of them? None of them? How can you tell who is at rest?
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sokarul

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Re: Clarification on Gravity
« Reply #724 on: September 22, 2008, 01:58:37 PM »
Sokarul - what other information would you require in the diagram? If you would like the velocities of each case, what would like them with respect to? Which of these observers is at 'rest'? Any of them? None of them? How can you tell who is at rest?
I do not want velocities.  I would like know if any of those accelerations are gravitational accelerations.

No response to my other post? 
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Dr Matrix

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Re: Clarification on Gravity
« Reply #725 on: September 22, 2008, 02:01:16 PM »
I do not want velocities.  I would like know if any of those accelerations are gravitational accelerations.

OK, fair enough. To answer your question: the equivalence principle says your question is irrelevant. Inertial mass is the same as gravitational mass. Do you disagree?

No response to my other post? 

I'm dealing with them one at a time - I'm trying to prevent this discussion from being derailed.
Quote from: Arthur Schopenhauer
All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.

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sokarul

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Re: Clarification on Gravity
« Reply #726 on: September 22, 2008, 02:06:06 PM »
I do not want velocities.  I would like know if any of those accelerations are gravitational accelerations.

OK, fair enough. To answer your question: the equivalence principle says your question is irrelevant. Inertial mass is the same as gravitational mass. Do you disagree?
Yes and no.  I disagree when you say my question is irrelevant.  Just because it proves me right does not make it irrelevant. 
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I'm dealing with them one at a time - I'm trying to prevent this discussion from being derailed.
You mean cowarding away from information that is most certainly relevant.  Unless you think free-fall is irrelevant to free-fall.   
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Robbyj

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Re: Clarification on Gravity
« Reply #727 on: September 22, 2008, 02:13:36 PM »
Part of the equivalences principle says a closed box in free-fall will yield the same results as a closed box in outer space with no gravitation present. Now why would that be important if the box in free-fall wasn't doing anything?  It would be like saying 5=5.  That's not going to get you famous.

It is doing something.  It's following a straight line geodesic in space-time at a constant speed,  but it isn't accelerating.
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sokarul

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Re: Clarification on Gravity
« Reply #728 on: September 22, 2008, 02:14:31 PM »
Part of the equivalences principle says a closed box in free-fall will yield the same results as a closed box in outer space with no gravitation present. Now why would that be important if the box in free-fall wasn't doing anything?  It would be like saying 5=5.  That's not going to get you famous.

It is doing something.  It's following a straight line geodesic in space-time at a constant speed,  but it isn't accelerating.
Incorrect. 
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Parsifal

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Re: Clarification on Gravity
« Reply #729 on: September 22, 2008, 02:16:23 PM »
Part of the equivalences principle says a closed box in free-fall will yield the same results as a closed box in outer space with no gravitation present. Now why would that be important if the box in free-fall wasn't doing anything?  It would be like saying 5=5.  That's not going to get you famous.

It is doing something.  It's following a straight line geodesic in space-time at a constant speed,  but it isn't accelerating.
Incorrect. 

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Dr Matrix

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Re: Clarification on Gravity
« Reply #730 on: September 22, 2008, 02:16:28 PM »
Yes and no.  I disagree when you say my question is irrelevant.  Just because it proves me right does not make it irrelevant. 

For one, the equivalence principle you quoted just a few minutes ago says that there is no difference between the forces applied on an observer by a rocket and those by a gravitational field.  If you think any of those are at rest in some absolute sense, then I would like to know which.  Where they are and what they are doing is irrelevant, except for the readout of their own accelerometer. That is what Einstein said - he can't help you with your OCD over a Universal rest frame.

You mean cowarding away from information that is most certainly relevant.  Unless you think free-fall is irrelevant to free-fall.   

I'm getting the distinct impression that you are not even willing to accept the possibility that you are wrong.  I accept the possibility that I am, can you say the same, or are you deliberately being closed-minded in this discussion?  That is the only reason I can think of as to why you would be afraid of going through the points one at a time in a rational, scientific way.
Quote from: Arthur Schopenhauer
All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.

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sokarul

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Re: Clarification on Gravity
« Reply #731 on: September 22, 2008, 02:20:38 PM »
Yes and no.  I disagree when you say my question is irrelevant.  Just because it proves me right does not make it irrelevant. 

For one, the equivalence principle you quoted just a few minutes ago says that there is no difference between the forces applied on an observer by a rocket and those by a gravitational field.  If you think any of those are at rest in some absolute sense, then I would like to know which.  Where they are and what they are doing is irrelevant, except for the readout of their own accelerometer. That is what Einstein said - he can't help you with your OCD over a Universal rest frame.
I know what the whole EP says.  I also know what the parts are.  BTW the EP only applies locally, but you already knew this even thought you didn't point it out.   


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I'm getting the distinct impression that you are not even willing to accept the possibility that you are wrong.  I accept the possibility that I am, can you say the same, or are you deliberately being closed-minded in this discussion?  That is the only reason I can think of as to why you would be afraid of going through the points one at a time in a rational, scientific way.
I already know the original statement, that the earth accelerates to someone in free-fall, is wrong. 
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Parsifal

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Re: Clarification on Gravity
« Reply #732 on: September 22, 2008, 02:21:40 PM »
I already know the original statement, that the earth accelerates to someone in free-fall, is wrong. 

Interesting. So if I jump into the air, I'll end up in space?
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Dr Matrix

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Re: Clarification on Gravity
« Reply #733 on: September 22, 2008, 02:33:34 PM »
I know what the whole EP says.  I also know what the parts are.  BTW the EP only applies locally, but you already knew this even thought you didn't point it out.

I don't doubt that you know it well - you are quite adept at quoting it.  However there is a well-known difference between knowledge and wisdom.  Without wanting to sound condescending, you are missing the point that Einstein was trying to make and are fighting your corner to the bitter end, without being open to the possibility that you may be wrong.  I only ask that, looking at the diagram I drew, there can be no distinguishing between the observers other than by the forces they feel acting on them (aka - their accelerometer readings).

I already know the original statement, that the earth accelerates to someone in free-fall, is wrong. 

Let's just deal with this one thing at a time - don't make the mistake of colouring your logic with preconceptions.  Let's just work it through and see where we end up. The EP (weak, 'Einstein' and strong) allows my diagram to be correct.

Do you accept that none of those observers can tell anything about their surroundings, except for the reading on their accelerometer?
Quote from: Arthur Schopenhauer
All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.

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sokarul

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Re: Clarification on Gravity
« Reply #734 on: September 22, 2008, 05:54:14 PM »
I know what the whole EP says.  I also know what the parts are.  BTW the EP only applies locally, but you already knew this even thought you didn't point it out.

I don't doubt that you know it well - you are quite adept at quoting it.  However there is a well-known difference between knowledge and wisdom.  Without wanting to sound condescending, you are missing the point that Einstein was trying to make and are fighting your corner to the bitter end, without being open to the possibility that you may be wrong.  I only ask that, looking at the diagram I drew, there can be no distinguishing between the observers other than by the forces they feel acting on them (aka - their accelerometer readings).
I have a good idea of what Einstein was getting at.   


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Let's just deal with this one thing at a time - don't make the mistake of colouring your logic with preconceptions.  Let's just work it through and see where we end up. The EP (weak, 'Einstein' and strong) allows my diagram to be correct.

Do you accept that none of those observers can tell anything about their surroundings, except for the reading on their accelerometer?
ok, only partly.  Their accelerometer only lets them know if a force is acting on them.  If they see acceleration they know they are either in a rocket ship or on a planet.  If they see no acceleration they know they are either in free-fall or empty space.     



I already know the original statement, that the earth accelerates to someone in free-fall, is wrong. 
Interesting. So if I jump into the air, I'll end up in space?

no
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Parsifal

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Re: Clarification on Gravity
« Reply #735 on: September 23, 2008, 12:48:29 AM »
I already know the original statement, that the earth accelerates to someone in free-fall, is wrong. 

Interesting. So if I jump into the air, I'll end up in space?

no

Then how does the Earth remain at a constant velocity relative to someone in freefall?
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Dr Matrix

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Re: Clarification on Gravity
« Reply #736 on: September 23, 2008, 01:13:30 AM »
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Let's just deal with this one thing at a time - don't make the mistake of colouring your logic with preconceptions.  Let's just work it through and see where we end up. The EP (weak, 'Einstein' and strong) allows my diagram to be correct.

Do you accept that none of those observers can tell anything about their surroundings, except for the reading on their accelerometer?
ok, only partly.  Their accelerometer only lets them know if a force is acting on them.  If they see acceleration they know they are either in a rocket ship or on a planet.  If they see no acceleration they know they are either in free-fall or empty space.

OK. So we have a situation where we have observers in boxes, and they can't tell if they're on a rocket or on a planet, and likewise can't tell the difference between orbiting around a black hole (we'll assume they're far enough away as to be insensitive to tidal forces), being at the apex of a parabolic flight or floating in deep space.

This leads to the 'filled in' image that I was alluding to earlier:



This just pictorially shows what we have already established.

Now we can see what Einstein was trying to tell us - an observer who has no knowledge of his surroundings (i.e. - in a box) has to rely on his accelerometer to find out about the world. Now let's consider the example of a guy in a rocket and a guy on the surface of a planet (set B to be 9.81ms-2 to make this applicable to this image) - as we have already agreed they can't tell the difference since they both get the same reading on their meter. Our only reasonable conclusion is, therefore, that it is perfectly acceptable to describe someone standing on the surface of a planet as accelerating upwards, even though the planet doesn't seem to be exploding in all directions and they don't appear to be going anywhere.  

This is exactly the kind of counter-intuitive relative nature that Einstein was trying to describe - he himself said that when he finally grasped what it meant that it was "the happiest thought of my life" so misunderstandings are to be expected. Do you accept now that it is reasonable to say that someone standing on a planetary surface is accelerating upwards, just as a person in a rocket is, despite the obvious fact that the planet isn't exploding?

« Last Edit: September 23, 2008, 01:16:31 AM by Matrix »
Quote from: Arthur Schopenhauer
All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.

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Robbyj

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Re: Clarification on Gravity
« Reply #737 on: September 23, 2008, 05:12:34 AM »
This is exactly the kind of counter-intuitive relative nature that Einstein was trying to describe - he himself said that when he finally grasped what it meant that it was "the happiest thought of my life" so misunderstandings are to be expected.  Do you accept now that it is reasonable to say that someone standing on a planetary surface is accelerating upwards, just as a person in a rocket is, despite the obvious fact that the planet isn't exploding?

On-topic:  I think a majority of misunderstanding comes down to people trying to visualize space-time geodesics in a 3d world. 

Off-topic:  It's nice to see that i'm not the only person that writes in capitals.
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Parsifal

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Re: Clarification on Gravity
« Reply #738 on: September 23, 2008, 05:16:11 AM »
While we're discussing quirks in Matrix's writing, I think that writing "ms-2" without a space between the units causes ambiguity. It could be interpreted as "metres per second per second" or "per millisecond squared".
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Dr Matrix

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Re: Clarification on Gravity
« Reply #739 on: September 23, 2008, 05:23:24 AM »
While we're discussing quirks in Matrix's writing, I think that writing "ms-2" without a space between the units causes ambiguity. It could be interpreted as "metres per second per second" or "per millisecond squared".

You can infer which interpretation is correct dimensionally - per millisecond squared does not have the dimensions of an acceleration, so I think that's why it's acceptable to do so.  You are right, of course... to avoid ambiguity you could either write (m s-2) or (m.s-2) (ideally with a centred dot) or (m/s2).

Oh, and I don't usually write in capitals, but since it's the start of a new academic year and I've been applying for jobs I've had literally hundreds of pages to fill out in block capitals... you kind of forget how to write normally after a while.  Plus, my handwriting is pretty shit so it certainly wouldn't look that great after being scanned in!!
Quote from: Arthur Schopenhauer
All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.

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sokarul

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Re: Clarification on Gravity
« Reply #740 on: September 23, 2008, 08:01:01 AM »


OK. So we have a situation where we have observers in boxes, and they can't tell if they're on a rocket or on a planet, and likewise can't tell the difference between orbiting around a black hole (we'll assume they're far enough away as to be insensitive to tidal forces), being at the apex of a parabolic flight or floating in deep space.

This leads to the 'filled in' image that I was alluding to earlier:

I guess I have to go along with that people A and E are in local FORes. I'm kinda thinking they are not though.   

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This just pictorially shows what we have already established.

Now we can see what Einstein was trying to tell us - an observer who has no knowledge of his surroundings (i.e. - in a box) has to rely on his accelerometer to find out about the world. Now let's consider the example of a guy in a rocket and a guy on the surface of a planet (set B to be 9.81ms-2 to make this applicable to this image) - as we have already agreed they can't tell the difference since they both get the same reading on their meter. Our only reasonable conclusion is, therefore, that it is perfectly acceptable to describe someone standing on the surface of a planet as accelerating upwards, even though the planet doesn't seem to be exploding in all directions and they don't appear to be going anywhere.
The problem with saying a guy on the surface of a planet is accelerating upwards is because the only reason he feels a force is because he is being accelerated downwards into the planet so a normal force arises.  That is the only reason why he feels a force.  If he had no acceleration due to gravitation then he would feel no counter-force.   

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This is exactly the kind of counter-intuitive relative nature that Einstein was trying to describe - he himself said that when he finally grasped what it meant that it was "the happiest thought of my life" so misunderstandings are to be expected. Do you accept now that it is reasonable to say that someone standing on a planetary surface is accelerating upwards, just as a person in a rocket is, despite the obvious fact that the planet isn't exploding?


No, I know gravitation causes acceleration without a force. Einstein did not get famous by stating 5=5.  He found two totally different situations and was able to set them to equal when being locally.  They don't have to be the exact same thing as each other, they just have to be equal.     



Then how does the Earth remain at a constant velocity relative to someone in freefall?

It's not supposed to. 
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Parsifal

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Re: Clarification on Gravity
« Reply #741 on: September 23, 2008, 08:04:36 AM »
It's not supposed to. 

But you just said it doesn't accelerate. Acceleration is rate of change in velocity. If there is no acceleration, there is no change in velocity.
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sokarul

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Re: Clarification on Gravity
« Reply #742 on: September 23, 2008, 08:10:52 AM »
It's not supposed to. 

But you just said it doesn't accelerate. Acceleration is rate of change in velocity. If there is no acceleration, there is no change in velocity.
The guy doing the jumping has the acceleration.  It's called gravitational acceleration. 
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Parsifal

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Re: Clarification on Gravity
« Reply #743 on: September 23, 2008, 08:20:24 AM »
The guy doing the jumping has the acceleration.  It's called gravitational acceleration.

Fail less.
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Robbyj

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Re: Clarification on Gravity
« Reply #744 on: September 23, 2008, 01:56:57 PM »
Why justify an illegitimate attack with a legitimate response?

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Dr Matrix

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Re: Clarification on Gravity
« Reply #745 on: September 23, 2008, 02:15:45 PM »
I guess I have to go along with that people A and E are in local FORes. I'm kinda thinking they are not though.

To be clear at the risk of sounding pedantic, all 5 are in local frames of reference, but only A and E are inertial. You are completely correct in that regard - the two are completely equivalent and no experiment either could do would tell them otherwise.

The problem with saying a guy on the surface of a planet is accelerating upwards is because the only reason he feels a force is because he is being accelerated downwards into the planet so a normal force arises.  That is the only reason why he feels a force.  If he had no acceleration due to gravitation then he would feel no counter-force.   

This reveals the nature of the problem here, I think.  The problem as I see it is that (correct me if I'm wrong) you're saying that the guy on the planet can't just feel a force upwards with no apparent cause - something has to be 'pulling' him the other way.  This is, in the sense that we established before, incorrect - the guy could have 'fallen', by which I mean experienced no forces, to the surface of the planet without knowing it (accelerometer reads zero until contact) and as such the 'motion' caused by gravitation is meaningless - after all, motion itself is only a meaningful concept when two observers tell each other how they appear to be respectively moving.

This is no different to a guy sitting in a rocket until the engine is lit - a sudden and inexplicable increase in force which could be either due to gravitation or to thrust, with no way to distinguish between them.  We have to be clear that gravitation does not cause acceleration - gravitation defines the framework that we measure acceleration in - that is, the geometry of space-time.

No, I know gravitation causes acceleration without a force. Einstein did not get famous by stating 5=5.  He found two totally different situations and was able to set them to equal when being locally.  They don't have to be the exact same thing as each other, they just have to be equal.     

Without wanting to sound patronising, when Einstein wrote E = mc2 he was essentially writing "5 = 5" - the fact that until relativity came along the link between '5' and '5' written in different colour inks (for want of a better analogy) wasn't made explicitly is a testament to his genius for conciseness.

As for the principle of equivalence, the same thing can be said there - by stating that again '5' is the same as '5' in any meaningful sense, he revealed a deep insight into the nature of space-time.  If you are in free-fall, you experience no local gravitation (even next to a black hole).  If you are accelerating, you essentially distort your local space-time.  Obviously the cause of the two is different and must be explained as such, but their observable effects are indistinguishable and must be treated as such.
Quote from: Arthur Schopenhauer
All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.

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Robbyj

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Re: Clarification on Gravity
« Reply #746 on: September 23, 2008, 03:58:35 PM »
Chapter 2.6 of this link explains this idea nicely.

http://fy.chalmers.se/~rico/Theses/tesx.pdf
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Dr Matrix

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Re: Clarification on Gravity
« Reply #747 on: September 23, 2008, 04:02:48 PM »
Chapter 2.6 of this link explains this idea nicely.

http://fy.chalmers.se/~rico/Theses/tesx.pdf

Wow, whatever he compiled that in totally sucked - look at the alignment of the text! No self-respected TeX-head would have anything to do with shit like that.

EDIT: actually the whole thing looks horrible - makes mine look like a work of art!!!
Quote from: Arthur Schopenhauer
All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.

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Robbyj

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Re: Clarification on Gravity
« Reply #748 on: September 23, 2008, 04:31:12 PM »
Are you talking about the indents shifting back and forth?  If you are, thats for a binding when it's printed double-sided.
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Dr Matrix

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Re: Clarification on Gravity
« Reply #749 on: September 23, 2008, 04:37:34 PM »
No, maybe it's my viewer but all his text looks ill-aligned and the columns look really shit.  The whole thing looks a mess, basically...
Quote from: Arthur Schopenhauer
All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.