What about...the Coriolis effect?

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fshy94

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What about...the Coriolis effect?
« on: December 27, 2007, 10:55:18 PM »
Now, heres one I want to hear answered. How do FE'ers explain the Coriolis effect without the Earth being curved? And remember, the Coriolis effect affects hurricanes and so on, so it certainly exists. Well?
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divito the truthist

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Re: What about...the Coriolis effect?
« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2007, 04:11:22 AM »
How do FE'ers explain the Coriolis effect without the Earth being curved?

"The Coriolis effect is not a result of the curvature of the Earth, only of its rotation."
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fshy94

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Re: What about...the Coriolis effect?
« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2007, 08:29:17 AM »
ah yes, but then how do you explain the fact that on different hemispheres, the coriolis effect points in opposite directions? Storms in the northern hemisphere veer west, and vice versa on the southern hemisphere, all under an RE definition. How can this be on a flat earth?
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divito the truthist

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Re: What about...the Coriolis effect?
« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2007, 05:18:54 AM »
Either something causes it above or below the Earth, or the Earth is a parabolic shape.

"To demonstrate the Coriolis effect, a parabolic turntable can be used. On a flat turntable, the inertia of a co-rotating object would force it off the edge. But if the surface of the turntable has the correct parabolic bowl shape and is rotated at the correct rate, then the component of gravity tangential to the bowl surface will exactly equal the centripetal force necessary to keep the water rotating at its velocity and radius of curvature. This allows the Coriolis force to be displayed in isolation. When a container of fluid is rotating on a turntable, the surface of the fluid naturally assumes the correct parabolic shape. This fact may be exploited to make a parabolic turntable by using a fluid that sets after several hours, such as a synthetic resin.

Discs cut from cylinders of dry ice can be used as pucks, moving around almost frictionlessly over the surface of the parabolic turntable, allowing effects of Coriolis on dynamic phenomena to show themselves. To get a view of the motions as seen from the reference frame rotating with the turntable, a video camera is attached to the turntable so as to co-rotate with the turntable. Because this reference frame rotates several times a minute, rather than only once a day like the Earth, the Coriolis acceleration produced is many times larger, and so easier to observe on small time and spatial scales, than is the Coriolis acceleration caused by the rotation of the Earth.

In a manner of speaking, the Earth is analogous such a turntable. The rotation has caused the planet to settle on a spheroid shape such that the normal force, the gravitational force, and the centrifugal force exactly balance each other on a "horizontal" surface. (See equatorial bulge.)"
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kai

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Re: What about...the Coriolis effect?
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2007, 01:36:22 PM »
Either something causes it above or below the Earth, or the Earth is a parabolic shape.

So is earth a flat or a curved bowl (as your excerpt suggests)?  If it's a curved earth then yes it solves this particular problem, but if the earth is bowl shaped, then one should be able to see from Australia to South America by looking across the north pole.

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Re: What about...the Coriolis effect?
« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2007, 02:56:00 PM »
How do FE'ers explain the Coriolis effect without the Earth being curved?

"The Coriolis effect is not a result of the curvature of the Earth, only of its rotation."
Yes and no. The magnitude of the force depends on the radial velocity, which is very different from the velocity along the surface of the earth due to the curvature. To observe the difference between the effects of Coriolis force on a flat and a curved Earth it is only necessary to check the magnitude of the Coriolis effect at different latitudes, say by means of a Foucault's pendulum.
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Lorcan

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Re: What about...the Coriolis effect?
« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2007, 06:54:10 PM »
How do FE'ers explain the Coriolis effect without the Earth being curved?

"The Coriolis effect is not a result of the curvature of the Earth, only of its rotation."


Incorrect. Well, you're correct if you mean that the Coriolis force itself is not a result of a curved Earth. But the Coriolis effect we observe on our planet is very much in line with what would be only possible on a curved Earth, not a flat Earth.

I'd suggest reading up on the Coriolis force and how it is exhibited in many natural phenomena. Also feel free to seek out a couple of my other posts on this subject. They are brief, but informative. 

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divito the truthist

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Re: What about...the Coriolis effect?
« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2007, 06:58:12 PM »
I'd suggest reading up on the Coriolis force and how it is exhibited in many natural phenomena. Also feel free to seek out a couple of my other posts on this subject. They are brief, but informative. 

I've already read about it long ago. Not really much that's special.
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Lorcan

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Re: What about...the Coriolis effect?
« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2007, 07:14:53 PM »
I'd suggest reading up on the Coriolis force and how it is exhibited in many natural phenomena. Also feel free to seek out a couple of my other posts on this subject. They are brief, but informative. 

I've already read about it long ago. Not really much that's special.

Ok. Then I don't understand how winds traveling in different directions in different hemispheres is not an issue of a spherical or curved Earth. I suppose this is somehow explained in the flat Earth theory? And inertial circles surely must have their place in this flat earth interpretation of the Coriolis effect. If you can't suggest an explanation then I can suggest that you go back and re-read whatever it was that you read.

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Dioptimus Drime

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Re: What about...the Coriolis effect?
« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2007, 08:01:37 PM »
Don't you mean the Coriolis myth?


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fshy94

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Re: What about...the Coriolis effect?
« Reply #10 on: January 04, 2008, 06:46:56 PM »
Bump. No explanations?
Proof the Earth is round!
http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=19341.0

Quote from: Althalus
The conspiracy has made it impossible to adequately explain FE theory in English.
^^LOL!

Re: What about...the Coriolis effect?
« Reply #11 on: January 04, 2008, 06:54:00 PM »
Would two counter-moons spining in opposite directions below the earth do that?

Clockwise in the "north" half, and cc in the "south" half.

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fshy94

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Re: What about...the Coriolis effect?
« Reply #12 on: January 04, 2008, 06:55:55 PM »
Negative. According to FE the puny moons have enough force to affect us, while the sun does not. Not to mention the fact that the sun does not crash into the Earth, so you can't increase gravitational constant G. I calculate that according to FE, the FE sun ought to give a gravitational force of less than 0.025 Newtons, which does not correlate well to any attempt to use the moon, which will provide even less force. Let me give you an example of using 0.025 Newtons on a plane. That means that the planes acceleration is 0.00000025 m/s^2. Which means that the plane moves 1 additional meter every 400 days. Over an year. Best chance. Coriolis effect is stronger than that...besides, doesn't FE have enough moons already to explain the tides? Oh, and if the moons were close enough to make the Coriolis effect, they'd crash into the Earth. Plus they'd interact with the tides in an easily observable manner...

EDIT:Just thought of point number 2 -- According to a FE, the earth spins about the North Pole, correct? Therefore, since the lateral velocity of the Earth due to spin would be zero at the pole, the Coriolis effect, according to FE, would be strongest at Antarctica, and disappear at the North Pole, and the equator would be the midzone. This is not observed, and can easily be proved with the curvature of a plane flight, or a quick look at the trajectory of a hurricane. Well? I think that this is one of the stronger points against FE.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2008, 07:02:59 PM by fshy94 »
Proof the Earth is round!
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Quote from: Althalus
The conspiracy has made it impossible to adequately explain FE theory in English.
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Tom Bishop

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Re: What about...the Coriolis effect?
« Reply #13 on: January 04, 2008, 08:31:37 PM »
The Flat Earth does not spin. The Coriolis Effect can be explained as follows:

The two turnings of the winds between hemispheres create atmospheric "gears" with the teeth of these gears laying along the equator. The turning of the "gears" keep each other generally moving in opposite directions. Not literal gears, but ones consisting of wind currents rotating around a common center. When two wind currents moving in opposite directions collide at the equator it creates a reaction in accordance with Newtons third law: For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. The molecules of the air are shot outwards and away with a direction and magnitude directly opposite.

What sits over the equator to make this such a special area? The sun - which constantly imparts temperatures to the two hemispheres, rising pressure directly under its umbrella with its heat, gradually moving the winds within its circling spotlight outwards and away from the high pressures of the day out towards the low pressures of the night. It is analogous to a spoon churning a thick atmosphere in a vast mixing bowl. The spoon sifts through the atmosphere, imparting the molecules to its left in one direction, and imparting the molecules to its right in another. This effect builds up over time, creating predictable and recurring patterns of wind currents.

Here's an Illustration:



Where the teeth connect over the equator represents the area where the sun is sucking in and spitting out wind as it raises temperature and pressure beneath its vicinity. Over the course of countless years the wind currents have become stable and predictable, colliding at the equator and keeping neighboring wind systems moving in opposite directions through gearing.

But this effect is still not yet universal. There are still wind currents which occasionally wander into opposing hemispheres, violating the principles of the Coriolis Effect.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2008, 08:44:27 PM by Tom Bishop »

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fshy94

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Re: What about...the Coriolis effect?
« Reply #14 on: January 04, 2008, 09:08:02 PM »
Unfortunately, the sun does not transfer heat via magic. It uses IR radiation, which means that the coriolis effect would mainly be formed where there is currently daylight. Also, you seem to think that wind will work just like gears, with a fairly good transfer ratio. They will interact weakly. Too weakly to form the coriolis effect. Also, nice change of track, previously you said it was the combined force of the stars. Which is it?
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Tom Bishop

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Re: What about...the Coriolis effect?
« Reply #15 on: January 04, 2008, 09:18:16 PM »
Quote
Unfortunately, the sun does not transfer heat via magic. It uses IR radiation, which means that the coriolis effect would mainly be formed where there is currently daylight.

Over time the entire earth would be affected by the movements of the sun and stabilized and recurring wind patterns would emerge.

Quote
Also, you seem to think that wind will work just like gears, with a fairly good transfer ratio. They will interact weakly. Too weakly to form the coriolis effect.

The atoms and molecules in a wind current are attracted to each other through the electrostatic force, which is why very large wind currents can act as solid disks and spin around itself like a small version of a hurricane.

Quote
Also, nice change of track, previously you said it was the combined force of the stars. Which is it?

Probably a little bit of both.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2008, 09:20:54 PM by Tom Bishop »

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fshy94

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Re: What about...the Coriolis effect?
« Reply #16 on: January 04, 2008, 09:37:05 PM »
0.025 Newtons on a plane? 1 meter over an year? Nice. Wow. Wow oh wow. Winds are electrostatically charged? That is amazing. I never got a static shock when I go into the atmosphere. How many coloumbs? Negative or positive? Idiot.
Proof the Earth is round!
http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=19341.0

Quote from: Althalus
The conspiracy has made it impossible to adequately explain FE theory in English.
^^LOL!

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Tom Bishop

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Re: What about...the Coriolis effect?
« Reply #17 on: January 04, 2008, 10:00:29 PM »
Quote
Winds are electrostatically charged? That is amazing. I never got a static shock when I go into the atmosphere. How many coloumbs? Negative or positive? Idiot.

How else do you believe wind systems are able to maintain their distinctive disk shapes without falling apart?

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fshy94

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Re: What about...the Coriolis effect?
« Reply #18 on: January 04, 2008, 10:21:07 PM »
Maybe(gasp!), the world is round! Seriously, you can easily measure static electricity, courtesy of a simple device(if I'm not mistaken, most multimeters). Go outside with one, and measure the coloumbs of the wind ::) Try again.
Proof the Earth is round!
http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=19341.0

Quote from: Althalus
The conspiracy has made it impossible to adequately explain FE theory in English.
^^LOL!

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Tom Bishop

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Re: What about...the Coriolis effect?
« Reply #19 on: January 04, 2008, 10:53:29 PM »
Maybe(gasp!), the world is round! Seriously, you can easily measure static electricity, courtesy of a simple device(if I'm not mistaken, most multimeters). Go outside with one, and measure the coloumbs of the wind ::) Try again.

How exactly does a Round Earth cause or allow a wind system with a diameter of seventy miles or so to maintain its distinctive disk shape without falling apart?
« Last Edit: January 04, 2008, 11:04:49 PM by Tom Bishop »

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TheEngineer

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Re: What about...the Coriolis effect?
« Reply #20 on: January 05, 2008, 03:42:08 AM »
I never got a static shock when I go into the atmosphere.
My plane does.   :(


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Lorcan

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Re: What about...the Coriolis effect?
« Reply #21 on: January 05, 2008, 12:04:36 PM »
The Flat Earth does not spin. The Coriolis Effect can be explained as follows:

The two turnings of the winds between hemispheres create atmospheric "gears" with the teeth of these gears laying along the equator. The turning of the "gears" keep each other generally moving in opposite directions. Not literal gears, but ones consisting of wind currents rotating around a common center. When two wind currents moving in opposite directions collide at the equator it creates a reaction in accordance with Newtons third law: For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. The molecules of the air are shot outwards and away with a direction and magnitude directly opposite.

What sits over the equator to make this such a special area? The sun - which constantly imparts temperatures to the two hemispheres, rising pressure directly under its umbrella with its heat, gradually moving the winds within its circling spotlight outwards and away from the high pressures of the day out towards the low pressures of the night. It is analogous to a spoon churning a thick atmosphere in a vast mixing bowl. The spoon sifts through the atmosphere, imparting the molecules to its left in one direction, and imparting the molecules to its right in another. This effect builds up over time, creating predictable and recurring patterns of wind currents.

Here's an Illustration:



Where the teeth connect over the equator represents the area where the sun is sucking in and spitting out wind as it raises temperature and pressure beneath its vicinity. Over the course of countless years the wind currents have become stable and predictable, colliding at the equator and keeping neighboring wind systems moving in opposite directions through gearing.

But this effect is still not yet universal. There are still wind currents which occasionally wander into opposing hemispheres, violating the principles of the Coriolis Effect.


That's a nice attempt at psuedoscience that a few FE proponents will probably say "makes a lot of sense" while in reality not understanding the implications you've made. This is all impossible, Tom, and obviously not supported by an ounce of empirical evidence. Your failed explanation also neglects many other features of wind in general.

The sun alone is not enough to create the types of wind we have on Earth. Your 1st grade explanation suggests that it is, and also imposes a lot of fairy tale, made up physics on the system in question.

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Loard Z

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Re: What about...the Coriolis effect?
« Reply #22 on: January 05, 2008, 12:13:09 PM »
Putdowns = fail.

Tom explained the Coriolis effect, and now you have to resort to insults instead of argument.
if i remember, austria is an old, dis-used name for what is now Germany.
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Lorcan

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Re: What about...the Coriolis effect?
« Reply #23 on: January 05, 2008, 12:22:55 PM »
Calling pseudoscience what it is is not a put down.

Referring to a weak and laughable description of something that is very well understood using real data as a 1st grade explanation is also somewhat accurate, though I agree it is a put down.

But don't neglect the fact that I have also argued what Tom is suggesting. I argued that his explanation fails to explain the behavior of wind, and that the sun is not a proper mechanism for wind. I know you don't want me to elaborate because you won't read it anyway. If Tom requires elaboration, though, I will do it. But I've offered a little argument for him to reply to, anyway.

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skeptical scientist

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Re: What about...the Coriolis effect?
« Reply #24 on: January 05, 2008, 12:24:24 PM »
Calling pseudoscience what it is is not a put down.
Well, it kind of is... It's just an accurate and well-deserved one.
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Loard Z

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Re: What about...the Coriolis effect?
« Reply #25 on: January 05, 2008, 12:25:02 PM »
I won't need it because I know what causes wind.

And I know it's not the sun.

It's obviously the DEF that causes it.
if i remember, austria is an old, dis-used name for what is now Germany.
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Lorcan

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Re: What about...the Coriolis effect?
« Reply #26 on: January 05, 2008, 12:27:01 PM »
Calling pseudoscience what it is is not a put down.
Well, it kind of is... It's just an accurate and well-deserved one.

I suppose you're correct. It's not exactly flattering to have your theory called pseudoscience, but there's no better word for it.

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fshy94

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Re: What about...the Coriolis effect?
« Reply #27 on: January 05, 2008, 02:21:50 PM »
Putdowns = fail.

Tom explained the Coriolis effect, and now you have to resort to insults instead of argument.

What have I told you about depending on Tom? Trust me, there's a reliable counterpoint. Tom has implied that the air molecules have coloumbs. Which means that you should have a static shock when you go outside. Do you observe this? No. And RE gives an explanation for hurricanes, namely, the pressure gradient force, and the coriolis effect, which keeps storms together.

Oh, and engy, yes, sometimes planes do, but thats due to the speed that airplanes go through the air, which strips charge from the neutral air, and charges your plane and a bit of the air. It has nothing to do with anything Tom has said. Tom states that I should observe a static charge in the atmosphere, which I don't. Furthermore, that charge is unlikely to be able to produce the sort of circular pattern of a hurricane. Produce a theory if you must, but don't rely on Tom for anything. EVER.
Proof the Earth is round!
http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=19341.0

Quote from: Althalus
The conspiracy has made it impossible to adequately explain FE theory in English.
^^LOL!

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fshy94

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Re: What about...the Coriolis effect?
« Reply #28 on: January 05, 2008, 02:43:50 PM »
I won't need it because I know what causes wind.

And I know it's not the sun.

It's obviously the DEF that causes it.

Do you even know what your implying? Your implying that some magic thing is harnessing dark energy. Dark energy is the theory that some energy is required to have space, which makes no sense when talking about the wind. Don't be an idiot with nonsense pseudoscience. You have to resort to something that is not part of the standard model, and which is unconfirmed to even exist? You might as well talk about the giant turtle underneath the Earth... Even so, we would observe any DEF's gravitational effect, unless of course you deny gravitation, in which case I may refer you to the Cavendish experiment....
Proof the Earth is round!
http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=19341.0

Quote from: Althalus
The conspiracy has made it impossible to adequately explain FE theory in English.
^^LOL!

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Loard Z

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Re: What about...the Coriolis effect?
« Reply #29 on: January 05, 2008, 02:56:28 PM »
I won't need it because I know what causes wind.

And I know it's not the sun.

It's obviously the DEF that causes it.

Do you even know what your implying? Your implying that some magic thing is harnessing dark energy. Dark energy is the theory that some energy is required to have space, which makes no sense when talking about the wind. Don't be an idiot with nonsense pseudoscience. You have to resort to something that is not part of the standard model, and which is unconfirmed to even exist? You might as well talk about the giant turtle underneath the Earth... Even so, we would observe any DEF's gravitational effect, unless of course you deny gravitation, in which case I may refer you to the Cavendish experiment....

Nope, I have absolutely no idea what I'm talking about. I just think up this crazy shit all day while I'm on drugs and then laugh hilariously when you respond to it in all seriousness, hoping to convert me.

Or, wait. No, I do believe it. Yeah, that's the correct answer.
if i remember, austria is an old, dis-used name for what is now Germany.
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