Now here's an idea regarding the conspiracy

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The Terror

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Re: Now here's an idea regarding the conspiracy
« Reply #60 on: January 21, 2008, 01:29:54 AM »
It's not just NASA though, there's the Soviet space agency to consider. One space agency has been lying to us? I suppose that's possible. Two space agencies are lying to us? Two space agencies in countries which are on the verge of nuclear war somehow agree to propogate the same lie? Doubtful.

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divito the truthist

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Re: Now here's an idea regarding the conspiracy
« Reply #61 on: January 21, 2008, 04:09:30 AM »
Yes, when you start with the idea of the Earth actually being flat. How do you justify starting at that point? By what authority can we assume that FET is true when the predominant theory of the shape of the Earth explains everything just fine?

Let's say you knew nothing of the shape of the Earth, and were taught or exposed to Rowbotham's book. That's one.

If conspiracy theory is acceptable, then we must also accept even the most obviously unacceptable theories as plausible due to conspiracy theories providing as much evidence as necessary.

Not as plausible, possible. But yes.

But are we not debating on a forum? Is it not entirely unfair then to use an argument the integrity of which cannot be practically verified by any member of the debate? What if I started off a point with "Well you just take your super collider and..."? My argument may be sound, but no one on these forums has access to a super collider so it makes no sense for me to use it as evidence for my assertions. But with a conspiracy it's even worse because the nature of the conspiracy is assumed to be actively hidden from the public - thus very difficult to research.

Unfairness is subjective.

Well it seems to me that you are refuting Occam's razor.

I'm refuting it because it holds no substance in establishing actual fact. Using it in an argument for proof of a theory's incorrectness is silly.

Also, one must remember that the basis of science is assumption: we can never truly know all of the facts.

Exactly.

It's not just NASA though, there's the Soviet space agency to consider. One space agency has been lying to us? I suppose that's possible. Two space agencies are lying to us? Two space agencies in countries which are on the verge of nuclear war somehow agree to propogate the same lie? Doubtful.

That's where the conspiracy comes in.
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silverhammermba

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Re: Now here's an idea regarding the conspiracy
« Reply #62 on: January 21, 2008, 07:56:45 AM »
If conspiracy theory is acceptable, then we must also accept even the most obviously unacceptable theories as plausible due to conspiracy theories providing as much evidence as necessary.

Not as plausible, possible. But yes.

Well it seems to me that you are refuting Occam's razor.

I'm refuting it because it holds no substance in establishing actual fact. Using it in an argument for proof of a theory's incorrectness is silly.

Also, one must remember that the basis of science is assumption: we can never truly know all of the facts.

Exactly.
Science is based off of assumptions: we can never truly know the facts. Also, any theory could possibly be true. We agree on these points. However, the truth of most theories is mutually exclusive: FET and RET cannot both be entirely true. And just because every theory is possible doesn't mean that they're all equally possible. However, you keep insisting that the probability of a theory has nothing at all to do with its validity. I ask again, what then are your criteria for determining the superior theory in the case of mutual exclusiveness?

Unfairness is subjective.
You're avoiding my question. What is the  point of using an argument that you know no person can practically verify? That's where most of our problems come from on these forums: people refusing to accept the other side's arguments because they can't verify the evidence for themselves. FEers keep whining when REers are unable to produce repeatable evidence of the curvature of the horizon, etc. But then those same FEers seem completely fine with invoking the conspiracy as an explanation when it's even more impractical for any REer to confirm such evidence.

Answered in the post.  Whether such evidence is to be trusted or not is subjective, but that's true for most RE evidence, too.

The predominant theory of the shape of the earth is contradicted by Rowbotham's results, so it does not explain everything just fine if the results are to be believed.  Again, whether one chooses to believe the results is subjective, and anyone who claims to have duplicated the experiments and gotten similar results (as a couple here claim to have done) would have grounds for believing the earth to be flat, at least from his point of view.
Subjective, yes. But yet again, the two theories are not at all equal. RET has vast amounts of evidence supporting it - especially considering that without RET, most modern physics (which are capable of incredibly accurate predictions) would have to be scrapped. Also, what little evidence has been provided for FET has been strongly refuted with arguments that I have yet to see countered. The mere existence of possible contrary evidence is not justification for giving said evidence equal bearing as the mainstream theories.
When it comes to choosing which evidence is to be believed, there is a mote of subjectiveness involved - but simple rational thought and careful application of Occam's razor easily determine the most logical theory to support. Unless of course you don't believe in the use of Occam's razor and just choose whichever theory tickles your fancy at the time.

Lastly, someone with knowledge of High School physics and basic logic could point out the flaws in Rowbotham's theories. Whereas the ancient Greeks, with only basic trigonometry and observation, collected strong evidence that the Earth was round, calculated its size, and even the distance to the Sun with respectable accuracy (by today's standards).
« Last Edit: January 21, 2008, 07:59:39 AM by silverhammermba »
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divito the truthist

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Re: Now here's an idea regarding the conspiracy
« Reply #63 on: January 21, 2008, 08:57:28 AM »
And just because every theory is possible doesn't mean that they're all equally possible.

That's where probability comes in.

However, you keep insisting that the probability of a theory has nothing at all to do with its validity. I ask again, what then are your criteria for determining the superior theory in the case of mutual exclusiveness?

My criteria? I have none, since I know that they cannot be proven.

The criteria will depend on the person, and once they make a choice, they are knowingly and/or unknowingly blocking out other possibilities.

You're avoiding my question.

I wasn't avoiding the question, I was pointing out the flaw in your statement.

What is the  point of using an argument that you know no person can practically verify?

Wait, people have to limit their arguments to that which can be practically verified?

That's where most of our problems come from on these forums: people refusing to accept the other side's arguments because they can't verify the evidence for themselves. FEers keep whining when REers are unable to produce repeatable evidence of the curvature of the horizon, etc. But then those same FEers seem completely fine with invoking the conspiracy as an explanation when it's even more impractical for any REer to confirm such evidence.

I don't think I've ever seen an FEer complain about "producing repeatable evidence of the curvature of the horizon." Post?
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eric bloedow

Re: Now here's an idea regarding the conspiracy
« Reply #64 on: January 21, 2008, 10:33:21 AM »
the only consipiracy i see is the way this website is run-by FErs!

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: Now here's an idea regarding the conspiracy
« Reply #65 on: January 21, 2008, 10:34:34 AM »
Well, Eric, you know... um... it is called the Flat Earth Society... aren't conspiracies usually kept secret?  ???
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

Re: Now here's an idea regarding the conspiracy
« Reply #66 on: January 21, 2008, 10:39:48 AM »
Magicians are supposed to keep their tricks secret, but we know all of David Blain's and Chris Angel's.

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Re: Now here's an idea regarding the conspiracy
« Reply #67 on: January 21, 2008, 11:53:25 PM »
Answered in the post.  Whether such evidence is to be trusted or not is subjective, but that's true for most RE evidence, too.

The predominant theory of the shape of the earth is contradicted by Rowbotham's results, so it does not explain everything just fine if the results are to be believed.  Again, whether one chooses to believe the results is subjective, and anyone who claims to have duplicated the experiments and gotten similar results (as a couple here claim to have done) would have grounds for believing the earth to be flat, at least from his point of view.
Subjective, yes. But yet again, the two theories are not at all equal. RET has vast amounts of evidence supporting it - especially considering that without RET, most modern physics (which are capable of incredibly accurate predictions) would have to be scrapped. Also, what little evidence has been provided for FET has been strongly refuted with arguments that I have yet to see countered. The mere existence of possible contrary evidence is not justification for giving said evidence equal bearing as the mainstream theories.
When it comes to choosing which evidence is to be believed, there is a mote of subjectiveness involved - but simple rational thought and careful application of Occam's razor easily determine the most logical theory to support. Unless of course you don't believe in the use of Occam's razor and just choose whichever theory tickles your fancy at the time.

Lastly, someone with knowledge of High School physics and basic logic could point out the flaws in Rowbotham's theories. Whereas the ancient Greeks, with only basic trigonometry and observation, collected strong evidence that the Earth was round, calculated its size, and even the distance to the Sun with respectable accuracy (by today's standards).

You basically echoed what I said.  Did you read my whole post or just the part you quoted?  ???

I was basically saying that with all the evidence we have in favor of a Round Earth, it shouldn't be necessary at all to appeal to what the space agencies say to prove it.  I flatly stated that there are many ways to prove that the earth is round that aren't based on what really amounts to second-hand accounts.  This thread was about the conspiracy, not the mounds of evidence in support of RE, remember?

The conspiracy is a necessary offshoot of flat earth theory, and there's absolutely zero hard evidence to refute it.  I consider it a sign of a weak mind that many REers feel the need to even try to contest it when there's so much real evidence that they could use in their arsenals.
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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Colonel Gaydafi

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Re: Now here's an idea regarding the conspiracy
« Reply #68 on: January 21, 2008, 11:54:37 PM »
Well said sir, well said *slow clap*
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Re: Now here's an idea regarding the conspiracy
« Reply #69 on: January 21, 2008, 11:55:03 PM »
*takes a bow*
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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Colonel Gaydafi

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Re: Now here's an idea regarding the conspiracy
« Reply #70 on: January 21, 2008, 11:55:40 PM »
Oi get orf my bow!
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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: Now here's an idea regarding the conspiracy
« Reply #71 on: January 21, 2008, 11:57:57 PM »
It's my bow and I won't let you steal it from me!

And stop trying to derail this thread!  >:(
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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Re: Now here's an idea regarding the conspiracy
« Reply #72 on: January 21, 2008, 11:59:29 PM »
Sorry I'll stop if you entertain me in another thread. It's just its 10am and I haven't slept and I'm going crazy!
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eric bloedow

Re: Now here's an idea regarding the conspiracy
« Reply #73 on: January 22, 2008, 01:37:37 PM »
this is why RErs keep contesting "the conspiracy"; every single time we try to cite proof, some FEr says "that's not real proof, it's faked by the conspiracy"!

i say anyone who's idea of debate is to repeatedly say "all evidence against my point of view must be fake and all evidence in favor of my point of view must be true" is pathetically weak-minded; and ONLY FErs say that!

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: Now here's an idea regarding the conspiracy
« Reply #74 on: January 22, 2008, 02:06:45 PM »
this is why RErs keep contesting "the conspiracy"; every single time we try to cite proof, some FEr says "that's not real proof, it's faked by the conspiracy"!

Bullshit.  For the most part the conspiracy is used in matters related to NASA.

Show me where it is claimed that the conspiracy explains the Coriolis Effect.
Show me where it is claimed that the conspiracy explains the moon phases.
Show me where it is claimed that the conspiracy explains seismic readings.

You're a fucking moron.  Your one-track mind here really drives my point home, Eric.
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Germanicus

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Re: Now here's an idea regarding the conspiracy
« Reply #75 on: January 22, 2008, 02:14:55 PM »
Quote
and ONLY FErs say that!

We always say Rowbotham's experiments were faulty.......

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eric bloedow

Re: Now here's an idea regarding the conspiracy
« Reply #76 on: January 22, 2008, 03:41:12 PM »
i couldn't find the exact quotes, but i remember FErs saying "conspiracy" in discussions of coriolus and seismic readings, claiming the experiments had been faked. they also claimed all pictures of the moon were fakes...

FErs also say "conspiracy" when talking about navigation south of the equator, anything related to antarctica, etc.

oh, and only FErs fling insults like "fucking moron"! that's really nice "discussion" tactics, much more likely to make me HATE YOUR GUTS than listen to any of your "logic"!

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Re: Now here's an idea regarding the conspiracy
« Reply #77 on: January 22, 2008, 04:49:50 PM »
Somebody needs a hug.
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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Colonel Gaydafi

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Re: Now here's an idea regarding the conspiracy
« Reply #78 on: January 23, 2008, 09:17:47 PM »
i couldn't find the exact quotes, but i remember FErs saying "conspiracy" in discussions of coriolus and seismic readings, claiming the experiments had been faked. they also claimed all pictures of the moon were fakes...


I think there's something wrong with your memory m'dear
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