Clouds

Why is it when the sun is setting (or just moving above us for you FEs) are the clouds lighten up from the bottom instead of the top?  I always thought this was a very good proof about the roundness of the earth.

Your not going to get an answer for this, I can almost assure you.

Duh!  Magic elves hold up mirrors!

even with a cloud in front of the sun we can stil see, the cloud is opaque but light escapes arround the edges and is reflected back to us... the same opaquity of the clouds and immense reflection of light results in the base of the clouds becoming illuminated... this info is in any comprehensive guide to greenhouse gases ie clouds are an element of the atmosphere....The reason why some of the light reflected from the Earth’s surface, or radiated as infrared radiation from the lower atmosphere, becomes trapped is because it has changed from being of the sort to which the atmosphere as a whole is transparent to that to which the atmosphere is opaque. There are different types of light because photons of light can be of different energy. This energy (E) of electromagnetic radiation (light, thermal radiation and other rays) is proportional to its frequency (ν) or colour, with the constant of proportionality being Planck’s constant (h, and which is estimated to be 6.626 × 10− 34 J s). And so the atmosphere is transparent to some frequencies of light but not others. This transparency mix allows some higher-energy light into the blanket of atmosphere surrounding our planet, but hinders other, especially lower-energy infrared (heat-level), wavelengths from getting out. The exact mathematical relationship between the energy of a photon of light (or any other electromagnetic radiation) was elucidated, long after Fourier, in 1902 by the German physicist Max Planck. It can be expressed in the following simple equation.
When sunlight or solar radiation is either reflected off dust particles and water droplets in the atmosphere, or alternatively off the ground, it loses energy. As a result of the above relationship between energy and frequency, this reflected light is now at a lower energy, hence lower frequency. As stated, the atmosphere, while transparent to many higher frequencies, is opaque to many of the lower thermal frequencies. The atmosphere traps these and so warms. Consequently the atmosphere acts like a blanket trapping lower-frequency radiation. It functions just as the glass of a greenhouse does by allowing in higher-frequency light, but trapping some of the lower-frequency heat; hence the term greenhouse effect.

Why is it when the sun is setting (or just moving above us for you FEs) are the clouds lighten up from the bottom instead of the top?  I always thought this was a very good proof about the roundness of the earth.

The sun is at a 90 degree angle to the clouds.

Relative to what?  Are you saying the sun is in the same horizontal plane? 

Relative to what?  Are you saying the sun is in the same horizontal plane? 

Yes. Due to perspective.

Lets conduct a thought experiment:

Imagine that we are standing upon an infinite plane.

We have a long plastic tube six feet in length. The tube is on a table pointed horizontally, exactly level with the horizon line. If we look through the level tube we will see that the scene at the end of the tube is divided in half horizontally, half land and half sky.

Now, lets have a plane flying overhead recede away from the observer into that horizon. As the plane recedes it will appear to descend into the earth due to the natural laws of perspective. After a time the plane will approach the horizon. When we look through the tube we see the plane near the horizon line.

Now, how is it possible that the rays of light from the plane are traveling horizontally through the tube and hitting the observer's eye if the plane is at an altitude high above the observer?

In that case why does the sun still appear above you when you are flying above the clouds.

In that case why does the sun still appear above you when you are flying above the clouds.

It's possible for the sun to be at the horizon while you are in an airplane above the clouds.

The reason why the sun may seem to rise a bit as you increase your altitude is because when you change your height to a high altitude you are creating entirely new perspective lines with different angles in respect to the earth's surface. Your new perspective lines are broader in relation to the earth than they were at ground level.

Therefore at a high altitude receding bodies will take longer to reach the shallow area where the angles are less than one minute of a degree, where the vanishing point occurs.

This is why a half sunken ship can be restored by going to the top of a high building, and why an observer can see farther by increasing his altitude. By increasing your altitude the perspective lines must make a broader path into the horizon.

Why do clouds cast shadows directly beneath them at noon?

Quote from: JimboWizbo on January 23, 2008, 09:29:08 AM

In that case why does the sun still appear above you when you are flying above the clouds.

It's possible for the sun to be at the horizon while you are in an airplane above the clouds.

The reason why the sun may seem to rise a bit as you increase your altitude is because when you change your height to a high altitude you are creating entirely new perspective lines with different angles in respect to the earth's surface. Your new perspective lines are broader in relation to the earth than they were at ground level.

Therefore at a high altitude receding bodies will take longer to reach the shallow area where the angles are less than one minute of a degree, where the vanishing point occurs.

This is why a half sunken ship can be restored by going to the top of a high building, and why an observer can see farther by increasing his altitude.

During sunrise/sunset the sun will indeed appear at the horizon yes.  I was referring to when the sun is above you.

Why do clouds cast shadows directly beneath them at noon?

Because at noonday the sun is at zenith, nearly directly overhead.

If the sun is on the same level as the clouds then the sun would be engulfed by them.

Why does the sun appear directly above you when you are above the clouds, in an aircraft.

once again tom proves he knows nothing about perspective, because he's stupid enough to take Robotham's twisted version of perspective as fact.

so now he apparently thinks sunlight is bent UPWARDS by the air, thus hitting the clouds from below, yet he ALSO thinks sunset is an illusion caused by the air bending light DOWN!

so according to tom, light does 2 exact opposite things at the same time for the same reason!

Yes. Due to perspective.

Lets conduct a thought experiment:

Imagine that we are standing upon an infinite plane.

We have a long plastic tube six feet in length. The tube is on a table pointed horizontally, exactly level with the horizon line. If we look through the level tube we will see that the scene at the end of the tube is divided in half horizontally, half land and half sky.

Now, lets have a plane flying overhead recede away from the observer into that horizon. As the plane recedes it will appear to descend into the earth due to the natural laws of perspective. After a time the plane will approach the horizon. When we look through the tube we see the plane near the horizon line.

Now, how is it possible that the rays of light from the plane are traveling horizontally through the tube and hitting the observer's eye if the plane is at an altitude high above the observer?

1. The plane gets smaller, the sun does not.
2. The plane appears to slow as it approaches the horizon, the sun does not.

Silence speaks volumes

Now, how is it possible that the rays of light from the plane are traveling horizontally through the tube and hitting the observer's eye if the plane is at an altitude high above the observer?

Um, because the tube has fucking WIDTH, Tom.  The light comes in at an angle.  This can be observed because you see the bottom of the plane, not the top.  The light therefore does not travel horizontally.

Tom, You do realise that in the case you are describing, in order for the sun to "appear" on a level with the clouds, when it is actually 3,000 miles up, it would have to be incredibly far away. I'd do a diagram, but I have no idea how your magic laws of perspective work, they might somehow magically produce the effect you need. What next Tom? Gonna use Snell's law to explain it?

Another FE flaw falls into the infinity of the back pages.

Sigh


Oops, what an interesting bump 

If the sun is on the same level as the clouds then the sun would be engulfed by them.

The sun is always 3,000 miles above the surface of the earth. it only appears lower due to perception and Snell's Law.

Why does the sun appear directly above you when you are above the clouds, in an aircraft.

Because it is not yet at the horizon.

1. The plane gets smaller, the sun does not.

Planes are not the sun.

The mechanism which allows the sun to maintain its diameter is described in Chapter 10 of Earth Not a Globe.

2. The plane appears to slow as it approaches the horizon, the sun does not.

The rate of the suns decent is one degree per every 69.5 miles as a result of a combination of Snell's Law and perspective.

Um, because the tube has fucking WIDTH, Tom.  The light comes in at an angle.  This can be observed because you see the bottom of the plane, not the top.  The light therefore does not travel horizontally.

That sun in your illustration isn't at the horizon line.

Any body which touches the horizon line is at a perceptual level with the eye.

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If the sun is on the same level as the clouds then the sun would be engulfed by them.

The sun is always 3,000 miles above the surface of the earth. it only appears lower due to perception and Snell's Law.

This contradicts with your earlier statement that the sun is on the same plain as the clouds

Quote

1. The plane gets smaller, the sun does not.

Planes are not the sun.



The mechanism which allows the sun to maintain its diameter is described in Chapter 10 of Earth Not a Globe.

No, planes are flying machines made by man, the sun is a vast star a long long way away from us, hence the diameter appears to remain unchanged as the sun approaches the horizon.  The planes on the other hand are close to us, hence they appear smaller as they move away from us, this can be understood with a basic understanding of perspective.

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2. The plane appears to slow as it approaches the horizon, the sun does not.

The rate of the suns decent is one degree per every 69.5 miles as a result of a combination of Snell's Law and perspective.

I'd like to see this

Hoho! What did I say? Snell's law and perspective.

Any body which touches the horizon line is at a perceptual level with the eye? Well done, now explain how the sun, 3,000 miles up, manages to do this. And use some substantial maths to prove it for once.

Quote

1. The plane gets smaller, the sun does not.

Planes are not the sun.

The mechanism which allows the sun to maintain its diameter is described in Chapter 10 of Earth Not a Globe.
y which touches the horizon line is at a perceptual level with the eye.

I've said this before, Rowbotham's reasoning is flawed.  To the observer in the middle, the angular diameter (e.g. in degrees, looking up) of the projection is the same as the angular diameter of the sun.  The diagram actually demonstrates this:



To put is another way:  The long projection the sun is portrayed as casting on the upper-atmosphere will be re-compressed by the effect of perspective from the observer to the projection.

Therefore the projection will give the observer absolutely nothing. 

Please explain what I have missed here.

You are correct, the earth is round, this, along with countless other things proves it.  We aren't here to prove them wrong and be done with it, we are here to keep proving them wrong, over and over, because secretly, we love it

Ok, Tom Bishop, let's use some math here. We can draw an imaginary right-angled triangle, consisting of a vertical line straight up from the observer, 3000 miles in length. A horizontal line, at 90 degree angle to the vertical one, goes out from directly above the observer to the position of the real FE sun. Then a third line goes direct from the sun to the observer, forming our triangle. The length of the horizontal line we call x, and we now have an angle, y, from the vertical to the perceived angle of the sun.

Using trigonometry, we can state that the length of x=3000tan y. Now, in order for the sun to appear to sink below the horizon line, the angle y must go to 90 degrees, if not beyond it. (Which it can't, because the sun is always above the horizon.)
The sun can be observed at 85 degrees (5 degrees from the horizon), so 3000tan 85 = 34,290 miles. But the FE is only around 25,000 miles across (the part we live on, we know it's infinite in size, apparently.) That's not all, as can be seen from the graph of y= tan x, as x tends towards 90, tan x tends towards infinity. Therefore, for the sun in FE to reach the horizon, it would have to get infinitely far away. That would mean it gets a lot smaller, a lot dimmer and appear to move a lot slower.

Ok, Tom, show us with some maths how perspective will make this seemingly impossible event occur. You can even throw some snell's law in, at least there's some maths to that.

You know what ticks me off? Tom didn't even know about Snell's law until I pointed it out to him, and since then he's murdered poor Snell, and completely ignores it, and basically lumps any magic optical properties under Snell's law. Arse. Oh, and Tom? Remember that the index of refractivity of air is 1.000293. Make sure to add that in your law. Oh, and Snell's law goes like:

Vacuum is 1.0. Air is 1.000293. Now do your math.

Let's see if he can decode images...hmmm....

Oh, I know how much he's contorted and mutilated Snell's law. Good thing he can't use the maths to make false tales with no evidence to back them up.