Debate: Moon Phases

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Re: Debate: Moon Phases
« Reply #30 on: October 04, 2007, 07:35:47 PM »
Where did I say that every photo you showed me will be photoshopped?  I simply asked for photographic evidence that what you were saying was correct.  I assumed that it was clear from context that I meant photos from a reliable source, and not from a confessed photo manipulator or forger.

I am not calling you a liar, nor am I putting you in a no win situation.  I am simply assuming the simpler of two alternatives.  Your alternative is fantastic, but not impossible.  But in order to convince me that you are telling the truth, your evidence must be rock solid.

That first photo you gave me was an admitted forgery.  However I can find nothing against the second one.  Could you provide more information on it (date, time etc.) so I can try to confirm its authenticity?

Kudos, Max. Well argued and open minded!

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divito the truthist

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Re: Debate: Moon Phases
« Reply #31 on: October 04, 2007, 07:51:11 PM »
Our existentialist, relativist, nihilist, determinist, fascist, eugenicist moderator hath returned.
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Trekky0623

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Re: Debate: Moon Phases
« Reply #32 on: October 04, 2007, 07:57:37 PM »
How does the sun illuminate the bottom of the moon?  Is the moon higher than the sun and if so, the sun would no longer be a spotlight.

Because the the moon is on the other side of the Earth from the spotlight and above the atmosphere, the refraction would have to be something like this:



This is obviously false.

Sorry, the sun could not illuminate the moon in the way you are describing, Tom.

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Trekky0623

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Re: Debate: Moon Phases
« Reply #33 on: October 04, 2007, 09:41:11 PM »
bump

Re: Debate: Moon Phases
« Reply #34 on: October 05, 2007, 10:27:51 AM »
The moon moves in a slow circular pattern around the hub of the earth similar to the sun. Therefore the shadow on the moon will change slightly from day to day, as the angle of the moon differs. At first quarter moon the celestial moon is hung overhead of the observer. This will illuminate approximately one half of the moon's surface; when the observer looks up he will see a shadow cutting the moon in half. As the moon moves westward, it becomes located at an angle to the observer whereas its phases will slowly modify, changing to a waxing gibbous.

So are you saying that the sun and moon--orbiting their barycenter--take a month or so so complete an orbit?  Wouldn't that mean an earth day lasts a month?  Or, if they both go around in a day, wouldn't by your argument above, the moon go through a complete phase cycle in one day?

And with this model, how do you account for a crescent moon and sun appearing (on clear days) in the sky together, near each other?  (And say, from a "high northern latitude" such as canada, presumably "north of" [or inside] the orbit of both?)
Look you ugly son of a bitch, making up observations and unfounded suppositions is exactly what the Flat Earth Society is about.

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Marinade

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Re: Debate: Moon Phases
« Reply #35 on: October 05, 2007, 10:52:13 AM »
So Max Fagin, let me summarize what you have said to me thus far. "Show me a picture of the sun and moon together to prove your argument. Any picture you show me is photoshopped. So if you cannot show me a picture then you lose, but if you do show me a picture then you lose because it's fake." Yeah, I think that's a pretty good summary.

Here's another picture. Is it fake too?

I very much doubt that that picture is a fake. However, I don't think it shows a full moon in the sky at the same time as the sun. Looking at the moon it is missing a good crescent on the side away from the sun. So the part directly facing the sun would be full, but from your angle it looks nearly full. That picture works perfectly with the Round Earth model.

Your summary is pretty shit actually. I'll give a better one. Here's a picture I found. Max looks and sees that the guy that made the photo not only admits it's a fake, but explains how to make it. You then complain when Max won't accept your admittedly fake picture as true. You find a real picture that not only supports your claim, but doesn't contradict the round earth model. Everyone's happy except Tom.
(Not trying to be offensive, but this seems like a more accurate summary IMO.)

Bubbles I live in Canada, How is it that I can see a full moon at the same time people who the sun is always North for do? There is absolutely no alignment of the sun and moon that will allow this to happen on the FE model. I like you're point. I have a cousin in Australia, he's confirmed that they see a full moon at the same time of the month that I do. Tom can you show us a picture of the alignment that allows people both inside and outside of both orbits to see a full moon at the same time? I doubt it but I'm asking anyway.
Haha Tom is so funny. He can't be serious, no one is that stubborn or dumb.

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Trekky0623

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Re: Debate: Moon Phases
« Reply #36 on: October 05, 2007, 10:57:06 AM »
How does the sun illuminate the bottom of the moon?  Is the moon higher than the sun and if so, the sun would no longer be a spotlight.

Because the the moon is on the other side of the Earth from the spotlight and above the atmosphere, the refraction would have to be something like this:



This is obviously false.

Sorry, the sun could not illuminate the moon in the way you are describing, Tom.

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Trekky0623

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Re: Debate: Moon Phases
« Reply #37 on: October 05, 2007, 05:58:06 PM »
GODDAMMIT RESPOnD!

Re: Debate: Moon Phases
« Reply #38 on: October 05, 2007, 06:31:59 PM »
Just because someone claims to have witnessed an event which directly contradicts the Round Earth model he is suddenly either lieing or ignorant?...What reason would he have to lie? He's a self proclaimed RE proponent after all.  Suddenly it seems as if you're the one claiming Conspiracy, Max.

Wow, that's out there.  Tom, I've been reading this thread, and nowhere have I seen Max call Workover a liar, or ignorant, or even suggest such a thing.  You are really overreacting and lashing out. 

What has been presented, is a vague memory (which science has long since discredited as "evidence" no matter who's doing the remembering because literally anything can seem honestly vividly real to anyone).  Personally, I believe Workover honestly, earnestly believes his memory, and I give him the benefit of doubt as being the most honest, morally upstanding, socially responsible, respectable person on the earth.  But that has absolutely no connection whatsoever to an ability to accurately remember which phase he believes he saw the moon in however many years ago, no matter how out of place he remembers it being.

In the mid 90's (and still ongoing), thousands of upper-middle class, honest, college educated, upstanding, professional women vividly, sincerely, strongly, and honestly "remembered" being hung by their feet from chains and eviscerated by their fathers, during and after visits to their hypnotherapist.  (Google: FMS.) 

Doesn't mean it happened.

Edit: Actually a better google search would be "false memory syndrome".  Searching "FMS" turns up Flying-Model-Simulator, Financial Management Service, Faculty of Management Studies, etc.  I should have know better than that...)

The next bit of evidence was two small, low-res pictures that were clearly photoshopped, one of them admittedly so.  Neither photo was necessarily (and probably not) what Workover saw, nor has he made any such claim.

As I've hinted at, I am an avid semipro photographer.  I'm also an expert Photoshopper (but of course I have to get a picture into photoshop in order to manipulate it--so don't worry about our experiment together at the end of the month).  Trust me, both of them are very poorly photoshopped.  (Well usually people paying for photoshop are better at image manipulation than that...let's call it "PrintShopped"...)  Differences in contrast, sharpness, detail clarity, color cast, and jpeg artifacts are a few dead giveaways.

And Tom--I'm really confused.  Aren't you the one who says photographs cannot serve as evidence?  If you are so quick to jump on two piss-poorly manipulated photos as proof, why then so hesitant to accept any one of thousands of Apollo photographs?  Or satellite photos (of the wide-angle variety)?  Or STS snapshots? 

I'm familiar with what your arguments against NASA photos will be--my point is that it seems kind of incongruous and selective, you must admit.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2007, 06:44:11 PM by bubbles »
Look you ugly son of a bitch, making up observations and unfounded suppositions is exactly what the Flat Earth Society is about.

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: Debate: Moon Phases
« Reply #39 on: October 06, 2007, 02:23:24 AM »
28 moons!
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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The Communist

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Re: Debate: Moon Phases
« Reply #40 on: October 06, 2007, 06:36:32 AM »
Here's a picture I found on the internet. What I saw looked cooler though.

"Full moon is a lunar phase that occurs when the Moon is on the opposite side of the Earth from the Sun, and when the three celestial bodies are aligned as close as possible to a straight line" - wikipedia
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The Communist

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Re: Debate: Moon Phases
« Reply #41 on: October 06, 2007, 06:40:22 AM »
So Max Fagin, let me summarize what you have said to me thus far. "Show me a picture of the sun and moon together to prove your argument. Any picture you show me is photoshopped. So if you cannot show me a picture then you lose, but if you do show me a picture then you lose because it's fake." Yeah, I think that's a pretty good summary.

Here's another picture. Is it fake too?

The picture is not a full moon so you fail this argument still.
On FES, you attack a strawman. In Soviet Russia, the strawman attacks you
-JackASCII

Do you have any outlandish claims to back up your evidence?
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Quote from: GeneralGayer date=1190908626
Yeah I love gay porn.

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The Communist

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Re: Debate: Moon Phases
« Reply #42 on: October 06, 2007, 06:42:47 AM »




Due to Snell's Law the light approaching earth would be curved due to refraction.

The moon can still be illuminated if the moon elevates or the sun lowers elevation.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2007, 06:46:07 AM by The Communist »
On FES, you attack a strawman. In Soviet Russia, the strawman attacks you
-JackASCII

Do you have any outlandish claims to back up your evidence?
-Raist

Quote from: GeneralGayer date=1190908626
Yeah I love gay porn.

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Trekky0623

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Re: Debate: Moon Phases
« Reply #43 on: October 06, 2007, 08:29:10 AM »
Yes, but with that kind of refraction the sun appears to be to the South, not the North.

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eric bloedow

Re: Debate: Moon Phases
« Reply #44 on: December 15, 2007, 08:45:11 AM »
ok, here's a new argument; if the moon was really as close to the earth as Tom claims, then different people on different part of the earth would see different moon phases at the exact same time!

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James

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Re: Debate: Moon Phases
« Reply #45 on: December 16, 2007, 01:34:20 PM »
I might have missed something - but it's impossible that lunar phases are caused by a shadow object since between half and full, the dark area of the moon does not correspond with obscuration by a circular shape. This is why I've never tried to claim that the shadow object causes lunar phases.

Lunar eclipses are a different matter, and are, in fact, caused by the shadow object, antimoon, whatever you want to call it.
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Re: Debate: Moon Phases
« Reply #46 on: December 16, 2007, 03:30:37 PM »
am i the only 1 who laughs when you hear "shadow object" ?

Quote from: jack
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eric bloedow

Re: Debate: Moon Phases
« Reply #47 on: December 16, 2007, 07:03:43 PM »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snell's_law

there is nothing in that definition that would make sunlight act like a "spotlight". or does Tom claim that the sun lights only his house and leaves the rest of the world in total darkness?

and notice that ice crystals and such would make different frequencies of light refract at different angles-so if his claim that something in the air makes false sunrise/sunset was true, there would also be rainbows at every sunrise/sunset!
ok, that may be over-simplified, but...

and i still haven't heard any FErs answer my last point: if the moon was small and close, people on different parts of earth would see different moon phases at the same time!
that does not happen: everyone sees full moon at the same time, new at the same time, etc.

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eric bloedow

Re: Debate: Moon Phases
« Reply #48 on: December 17, 2007, 04:49:53 PM »
oh, and Tom claimed the "shadow object" was flat and perpendicular to Earth.
impossible! nothing could be perpendicular to the entire world at once! Earth would have to be one-dimensional!

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eric bloedow

Re: Debate: Moon Phases
« Reply #49 on: December 19, 2007, 08:27:06 AM »
still no answer...that means FErs can't explain this, so they just hope i will go away!

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eric bloedow

Re: Debate: Moon Phases
« Reply #50 on: December 20, 2007, 06:06:23 PM »
victory! i have stumped all FErs!

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eric bloedow

Re: Debate: Moon Phases
« Reply #51 on: December 23, 2007, 09:15:24 PM »
still here!

Re: Debate: Moon Phases
« Reply #52 on: December 23, 2007, 10:01:19 PM »
ok, here's a new argument; if the moon was really as close to the earth as Tom claims, then different people on different part of the earth would see different moon phases at the exact same time!

Could you please explain in a bit more detail why this must be true? It isn't obvious to me.