my evidence

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cpt_bthimes

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my evidence
« on: December 18, 2007, 03:43:23 PM »
scroll down to the second red-bolded section if you don't want to snooze through the boring details and just want to see the photos.

(you won't hurt my feelings.  such additional documentation is a necessary accompaniment to any serious experiment, but even i probably wouldn't want to read it unless it challenged my beliefs.  plus i take a few gratuitous and not strictly necessary p0wnage jabs at bishop one last time, as a secondary bonus gift.)


it has become clear that bishop is a coward and will never post his "proof" of a flat earth.  [you know, where he hides in the bushes with a telescope near the beach, and watches children running in and out of the water from 33 miles away on a clear chilly day.]

for something like a month, i have tried to arrange every kind of leverage imaginable to get him to post his proof.  i have appealed to his sense of pride, his sense of anger, his sense of riteousness, you name it.  nothing worked.  which is perplexing: i told him i would welcome his visual evidence with open arms, and so have many others.  he himself is a big fan of photographic evidence

photos of unknown internet provenance, and photos from verifiable *first-hand* provenance are two entirely different things. 

anyway, i told bishop that as soon as he just *committed* to posting his evidence, i would post my evidence which disconfirms his fe assertions, and confirms the re reality.  why would he not jump at that?  surely he can obtain his fe evidence very easily.  [he claims to have conducted the experiment many times, and the adapter for his camera and scope costs less than $40.]  furthermore, surely i cannot obtain my re evidence at all, because it supposedly doesn't exist!  he would emerge victorious, and i would look like a chump.  [or have to come up with an endless series of excuses to avoid being so.]

well, it's time to stop beating a dead horse, he's not going to pony up, and just post my evidence anyway.  and so as it turns out, bishop is the chump [troll] coming up with an endless series of excuses.  i think it's pretty obvious that he knows his evidence is just made-up and unattainable, and he was hoping to stall me with diversions of new and unrelated arguments, so i would not post mine.

so here is my photographic evidence.  this has taken me well over 40 hours to photograph (multiple locations and 7.75 gb of photos), notate, organize, upload, and document - mostly over a long thanksgiving vacation.  i must be crazy and i truly realize i need to leave this time sinkhole for good.  (and i'm going to.  i'll stick around long enough to answer questions and any required defense of methods and conclusions about this topic.)


  • round earth by focal length. see if more zoom "restores" things "sunken" below the horizon or not.

  • round earth by elevation.  see if viewing the same things from successively higher elevations "restores" them from their "sunken" state.

  • everything else.  other photos of interest, such as a beach from 10 miles away and much higher elevation, at very high zoom and high megapixel.  (remember, bishop claimed that at 33 miles, he could discern children vs. teenagers, and even frisbees.)


flikr doesn't have the best navigation, but i recommend navigating within each "set" that these links jump to (which are ordered by purposeful filename), rather than as a jumbled, unorganized whole.  within each set they are ordered by increasing zoom, or elevation - rather than chronologically.  also, this is a free flikr album, so the resolution is limited, and i only have so much bandwith available for upload.  the pics are much, much higher res than what you see.  if you'd like to see a 1:1 sample of a particular shot, let me know which one, and which portion, and i'll crop it out of my original (so flikr doesn't downsample it and also so i don't burn my monthly upload allotment) and upload it.  if you have an ftp server you'd like to donate, i'll be happy to upload the full-size originals.  it just might take a few days over my connection.

you can view the exif data for all pics.  in addition, the images are named with a combination of date/time/shot sequence.

the individual images are well documented, some with narrative.  all shot locations are exhaustively documented, including many google earth screenshots with precise lat/long locations and approx elevation, all included.

due to the nature of how google earth represents elevation, it is very inaccurate in wide views, and modestly accurate at more zoomed views.  my typical representation is about +/- 10 ft.  closer to the shore, my own personal estimations were more accurate so i used them instead.  of course my garmin gps with built-in barometer was no more accurate than google earth, and gps is also not terribly accurate with elevation (hence the built-in supplemental barometer).

the results of this effort are very clear: ships and islands are clearly not "restored" with magnification even with modern technology.  they are still very much "sunken".  however, moving to higher elevation [fairly low-tech] very clearly "restores" them to un- or less- "sunken" states.  furthermore, this proves conclusively that bishop is a liar, and demonstrates his cowardice, although this is not about bishop.  it's about which explains documented and repeatable observation of verifiable provenance better: the fe hypothesis, or re theory.  i think it's clear.


miscellaneous notes on optics, zoom, and useful resolution

the most usable zoom i have for photos is a substantial 400mm lens, which after dslr cropping factor, is equivalent to 640mm on a 35mm camera.  since i used two cameras with vastly different cropping factors, i used their 35mm equivalents in the filenames and descriptions, to equalize the descriptive measurements.

my zoom lens is more powerful, refined, and precise than the refractor telescopes of rowbotham's day.  i also have an optical lens doubler, for effectively 1,280mm.  but while the doubler is great for relatively nearby nature photography, it is generally practically useless for long-distance shots.  that's because even on the clearest day in the most remote desert, atmospheric haze and turbulence make it irrelevant.  you can't see any better, in fact the image is always worse and it's hard to tell what you're even looking at.  it certainly doesn't help "restore" sunken bridges and islands, that's for sure. 

furthermore, in carefully controlled tests i have conducted a while back, shots at 640mm and then "doubled" through post-procesing cropping and up-sampling, are no worse at resolving detail of distant objects (even just 8 miles or more depending on the day), than the same lens optically doubled to 1280mm.

also, an optically doubled lens is much harder to control since the light-gathering ability is cut by more than half, and on top of that the maximum aperture size is much smaller [larger f-stop number], requiring slow shutter speeds [with a big lens highly susceptible to wind vibration even on expensive tripod] and/or noisy and obscuring high iso.

all of which brings me to this: even the images you see on flikr can be zoomed in much, much farther, revealing more significantly more detail and actual, real zoom - up to 1:1 image pixel per screen pixel.  however, doing so doesn't reveal more detail for the extreme far shots, say of the farallon islands, or the bay bridge, due to atmospheric haze and turbulence.  and it certainly does not make them less sunken (trust me, i tried it).  but like i said, i'm happy to crop and upload 1:1 images if anyone wants to see the effect for themselves.

i also have a set of fairly expensive military-grade stabilized binoculars, which are about as powerful as my zoom lens+optical doubler, but with more light-gathering ability.  and comparable to bishop's telescope.  and on my honor (for whatever that's worth for someone saying that on the internet), it did nothing to restore ships, islands, or bridges.  in fact, zooming into the original high-megapixel pictures - approaching and reaching 1:1 image/screen pixels - provides the same if not *significanly more* real, usable resolution than even stabilized binoculars, thanks to a fixed field of view and the resolution of the eye with binoculars, and the ability with zoomed in photos to sit there for a long time and mull over them, in comfort without the chilly wind drying the sweat you worked up hiking around.


edit: fixed first flikr set link.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2007, 04:20:41 PM by cpt_bthimes »

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Tom Bishop

  • Flat Earth Believer
  • 18025
Re: my evidence
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2007, 04:02:24 PM »
The Flat Earth Literature expressly states that a quality telescope is necessary to restore half sunken bodies from the perspective effect.

Quote
my zoom lens is more powerful, refined, and precise than the refractor telescopes of rowbotham's day.

False. The zoom potential of a camera lens is not comparable to the zoom potential of a refracting telescope.

You lose.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2007, 04:08:06 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: my evidence
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2007, 04:07:51 PM »
The Flat Earth Literature expressly states you need to use a quality telescope to restore half sunken bodies from the perspective effect.

Quote
my zoom lens is more powerful, refined, and precise than the refractor telescopes of rowbotham's day.

False. The zoom potential of a camera lens is not comparable to the zoom potential of a refractor telescope.

You lose.

That means I win, yay! Oh, and fix your first link.

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Midnight

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Re: my evidence
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2007, 04:10:17 PM »
Those paragraph generators are becoming quite complex.
My problem with his ideas is that it is a ridiculous thing.

Genius. PURE, undiluted genius.

Re: my evidence
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2007, 04:17:52 PM »
The Flat Earth Literature expressly states that a quality telescope is necessary to restore half sunken bodies from the perspective effect.

What model of telescope would be considered a quality telescope? Could you please link to something reasonably affordable, and that would restore half sunken bodies from the perspective effect?
 

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cpt_bthimes

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Re: my evidence
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2007, 04:18:25 PM »
The Flat Earth Literature expressly states that a quality telescope is necessary to restore half sunken bodies from the perspective effect.

Quote
my zoom lens is more powerful, refined, and precise than the refractor telescopes of rowbotham's day.

False. The zoom potential of a camera lens is not comparable to the zoom potential of a refracting telescope.

You lose.

it's not the camera, it's the lens.  you lose.

where is your pedophile evidence of children splashing on the beach 33 miles to counter my evidence?

put up, or shut the fuck up.  you are a petty compulsive liar and a troll.  you have absolutely zero credibility.  the only thing you are capable of is copy/pasting rowbotham.  you are utterly, fantastically impotent.  i am just about ready to drive up to moterrey and shove that telescope up your fat ass.

Re: my evidence
« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2007, 04:19:23 PM »
The Flat Earth Literature expressly states that a quality telescope is necessary to restore half sunken bodies from the perspective effect.

Quote
my zoom lens is more powerful, refined, and precise than the refractor telescopes of rowbotham's day.

False. The zoom potential of a camera lens is not comparable to the zoom potential of a refracting telescope.

You lose.

it's not the camera, it's the lens.  you lose.

where is your pedophile evidence of children splashing on the beach 33 miles to counter my evidence?

put up, or shut the fuck up.  you are a petty compulsive liar and a troll.  you have absolutely zero credibility.  the only thing you are capable of is copy/pasting rowbotham.  you are utterly, fantastically impotent.  i am just about ready to drive up to moterrey and shove that telescope up your fat ass.
Don't you mean flat ass?

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cpt_bthimes

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Re: my evidence
« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2007, 04:21:25 PM »
That means I win, yay! Oh, and fix your first link.

fixed, thanks.

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Tom Bishop

  • Flat Earth Believer
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Re: my evidence
« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2007, 04:22:45 PM »
Quote
it's not the camera, it's the lens.  you lose.

The zoom potential of a camera lens is not comparable to the zoom potential of a refracting telescope. A child of five knows that.

You were supposed to follow the simple directions in the literature. However, you did not.

Since you have trouble following the correct procedure for restoring beyond the vanishing point, I don't see why we should consider your images as evidence.

« Last Edit: December 18, 2007, 04:28:06 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: my evidence
« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2007, 04:28:56 PM »
Quote
it's not the camera, it's the lens.  you lose.

The zoom potential of a camera lens is not comparable to the zoom potential of a refracting telescope. A child of five knows that.

You were supposed to follow the simple directions in the literature. However, you did not.

Since you have not followed the correct procedure for restoring bodies past the vanishing point, I don't see why we should consider your images as evidence.
Refracting telescopes aren't very impressive, even my old video camera has 450x zoom without a loss in quality. Get a reflecting telescope from Toys-R-Us if you want to blow the FE theory out of the water.

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Optimus Prime

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Re: my evidence
« Reply #10 on: December 18, 2007, 04:40:26 PM »
The Flat Earth Literature expressly states that a quality telescope is necessary to restore half sunken bodies from the perspective effect.

Quote
my zoom lens is more powerful, refined, and precise than the refractor telescopes of rowbotham's day.

False. The zoom potential of a camera lens is not comparable to the zoom potential of a refracting telescope.

You lose.

WTF are you talking about? A child of five - as you would say - would know that the optics are much more advanced on current devices - including cameras, binoculars, telescopes, etc. It's whether or not the lens is capable of zooming in or not, that's the end of it.

You can complain about zoom potential all you want, but the point it this... if you "zoom" to = 30X on a telescope, or = 30X with a camera lens, you get the same thing... a picture inverted, then inverted again in some cases depending on the combination of lens. No matter how you slice it - it's magnification via a lense.

I'm sorry Tom, but in this case you are absolutely wrong. If you'd like for me to find a page on optics, or a text book by title I will. Optics are the same no matter what theory you decide on.

- Optimus
Dyslexics are teople poo!

Re: my evidence
« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2007, 04:46:21 PM »
this is great. now one of us just needs to put some poles in the water and see if they get lower
Only 2 things are infinite the universe and human stupidity, but I am not sure about the former.

Re: my evidence
« Reply #12 on: December 18, 2007, 04:49:39 PM »
Quote
it's not the camera, it's the lens.  you lose.

The zoom potential of a camera lens is not comparable to the zoom potential of a refracting telescope. A child of five knows that.

You were supposed to follow the simple directions in the literature. However, you did not.

Since you have trouble following the correct procedure for restoring beyond the vanishing point, I don't see why we should consider your images as evidence.



You can quite clearly see the island with his lens, the point is that the closer to sea level the picture is taken, the more of the island is below the horizon.  cpt btimes has submitted acceptable evidence.  I've done the same experiment with a good pair of binoculars where I live.

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eric bloedow

Re: my evidence
« Reply #13 on: December 18, 2007, 04:52:57 PM »
apparently neither tom nor robotham has the faintest idea of how telescopes work!

Re: my evidence
« Reply #14 on: December 18, 2007, 04:57:40 PM »
Well after all a telescope is bigger so therefore it must be able to restore invisible objects  :D
Only 2 things are infinite the universe and human stupidity, but I am not sure about the former.

Re: my evidence
« Reply #15 on: December 18, 2007, 05:05:06 PM »
The Flat Earth Literature expressly states that a quality telescope is necessary to restore half sunken bodies from the perspective effect.

Quote
my zoom lens is more powerful, refined, and precise than the refractor telescopes of rowbotham's day.

False. The zoom potential of a camera lens is not comparable to the zoom potential of a refracting telescope.

Do you have some evidence to back this up?

Re: my evidence
« Reply #16 on: December 18, 2007, 05:07:00 PM »
Quote
it's not the camera, it's the lens.  you lose.

The zoom potential of a camera lens is not comparable to the zoom potential of a refracting telescope. A child of five knows that.

Really? I do not know that, and I am much older than five.

Do you have some evidence for this claim?

Re: my evidence
« Reply #17 on: December 18, 2007, 05:08:37 PM »
scroll down to the second red-bolded section if you don't want to snooze through the boring details and just want to see the photos.

(you won't hurt my feelings.  such additional documentation is a necessary accompaniment to any serious experiment, but even i probably wouldn't want to read it unless it challenged my beliefs.  plus i take a few gratuitous and not strictly necessary p0wnage jabs at bishop one last time, as a secondary bonus gift.)


Good job.

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cpt_bthimes

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Re: my evidence
« Reply #18 on: December 18, 2007, 06:59:49 PM »
Quote
it's not the camera, it's the lens.  you lose.

The zoom potential of a camera lens is not comparable to the zoom potential of a refracting telescope. A child of five knows that.

You were supposed to follow the simple directions in the literature. However, you did not.

Since you have trouble following the correct procedure for restoring beyond the vanishing point, I don't see why we should consider your images as evidence.

get lost bishop, you are really grasping.  your desperation is showing.  my camera lens has a larger objective lens, more magnification factor, far more precisely ground and pure optics, and far greater mechanism precision than 1800's era telescopes.  do the research yourself.

as an illustration of what an complete idiot you are, take a look at this camera lens and tell me again, categorically that "The zoom potential of a camera lens is not comparable to the zoom potential of a refracting telescope. A child of five knows that."



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Raist

  • The Elder Ones
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Re: my evidence
« Reply #20 on: December 18, 2007, 07:12:34 PM »
The Flat Earth Literature expressly states that a quality telescope is necessary to restore half sunken bodies from the perspective effect.

Quote
my zoom lens is more powerful, refined, and precise than the refractor telescopes of rowbotham's day.

False. The zoom potential of a camera lens is not comparable to the zoom potential of a refracting telescope.

You lose.

it's not the camera, it's the lens.  you lose.

where is your pedophile evidence of children splashing on the beach 33 miles to counter my evidence?

put up, or shut the fuck up.  you are a petty compulsive liar and a troll.  you have absolutely zero credibility.  the only thing you are capable of is copy/pasting rowbotham.  you are utterly, fantastically impotent.  i am just about ready to drive up to moterrey and shove that telescope up your fat ass.
arguing with a paragraph generator? If you wanna do it one that is more your speed is here www.jabberwacky.com

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Chacotay

Re: my evidence
« Reply #21 on: December 18, 2007, 07:39:49 PM »
Quote
it's not the camera, it's the lens.  you lose.

The zoom potential of a camera lens is not comparable to the zoom potential of a refracting telescope. A child of five knows that.

You were supposed to follow the simple directions in the literature. However, you did not.

Since you have trouble following the correct procedure for restoring beyond the vanishing point, I don't see why we should consider your images as evidence.

get lost bishop, you are really grasping.  your desperation is showing.  my camera lens has a larger objective lens, more magnification factor, far more precisely ground and pure optics, and far greater mechanism precision than 1800's era telescopes.  do the research yourself.

as an illustration of what an complete idiot you are, take a look at this camera lens and tell me again, categorically that "The zoom potential of a camera lens is not comparable to the zoom potential of a refracting telescope. A child of five knows that."



Wow... I thought that was just a lense... 'til I saw the camera on the end.

How much did that set you back?

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cpt_bthimes

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Re: my evidence
« Reply #22 on: December 18, 2007, 10:45:04 PM »
the problem with your arguments bishop, is that you make grand, all-inclusive or all-excluding statements.  how many times have i shut you down after you pull such crap?  all one has to do then is find *one* exception, and your argument is false, dead, done.  you just are incapable of learning, aren't you.

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Chacotay

Re: my evidence
« Reply #23 on: December 18, 2007, 10:48:00 PM »
the problem with your arguments bishop, is that you make grand, all-inclusive or all-excluding statements.  how many times have i shut you down after you pull such crap?  all one has to do then is find *one* exception, and your argument is false, dead, done.  you just are incapable of learning, aren't you.
You can prove something as many times as you want, but you only have to disprove it once for that theory to be proven invalid. That is the scientific method.

I want to make them eat this "Scientific Method". Maybe ingesting it will have more effect?

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cpt_bthimes

  • 553
  • exposer of lies
Re: my evidence
« Reply #24 on: December 18, 2007, 10:57:29 PM »
The zoom potential of a camera lens is not comparable to the zoom potential of a refracting telescope. A child of five knows that. /p  You were supposed to follow the simple directions in the literature. However, you did not. /p  Since you have trouble following the correct procedure for restoring beyond the vanishing point, I don't see why we should consider your images as evidence.

shit, this is like shooting fish in a barrel.  let us once again refer to bishop's recent historical record on this subject, where he always contradicts himself.  first, this little gem:

It does not matter what observational tool Rowbotham uses. He could be using a telescope, a set of binoculars, or a theodolite. In each of his experiments, Dr. Rowbotham is simply observing an object which should not be visible on a spherical earth. Rowbotham is simply using the theodolite as an enhanced telescope. There's no inaccuracy that could spring up doing that - Rowbotham is simply observing point B from point A.

but this is my favorite (my bold highlights):

...As a rebuttal, lets check this image against other sea-level images of Toronto from across Lake Ontario taken on days with different weather and wave conditions:

[misrepresented photo of toronto debunked here.]

This image was taken from http://www.weatherandsky.com/Mirages/Mirages.html, where the photographer describes it as a "View of Toronto Skyline (53km across the lake) through Canon Rebel digital camera 28 to 400mm zoom."

You should note that Toronto is not broken by the horizon line. How does Round Earth Theory explain this?

This particular image is devastating to the globe theory, because at 30 miles across Lake Ontario the earth should drop nearly 600 feet (60 stories). Quite clearly, we can see objects at the bottom of the Toronto skyline that are not 600 feet in hight....

curiously enough, he claims that his "devastating" flat earth "proof" above was obtained with a "Canon Rebel digital camera 28 to 400mm zoom".  curiously enough, that is almost the specs of my camera and lens.  only mine is a bit better: canon digital rebel xti (10mp vs. 6), and a tamron 200mm - 400mm lens.  (i've never heard of a zoom lens going from 28mm to 400mm.  generally lenses with extremely wide ranges fitting cameras with larger sensor sizes do not not produce very good results at either end as there are just too many necessary compromises that have to be made and still be affordable by non-billionaires.  [small sensor sizes [e.g. videocams] are another story...)

so in the case of his second-hand, knowingly misrepresented "evidence", this camera/lens combo is good enough to prove rowbotham right.  but in my case of first hand original evidence, almost the exact same equipment (slightly better) is not.

well, i guess 1) a child of five doesn't know what the fuck you are talking about, 2) i followed your random "correct procedure in the literature" (whatever you want it to be at any random time) by your own critereon, and 2) you see why we should accept my evidence.

classic bishop contradictions, lies and desperate graps.  and resulting classic bishop p0wnage.

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cpt_bthimes

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Re: my evidence
« Reply #25 on: December 19, 2007, 12:18:28 AM »
Wow... I thought that was just a lense... 'til I saw the camera on the end.

How much did that set you back?

i wish!  that's not my lens.  i tried to find the page that listed the expected list price but couldn't.  i remember it (from several months ago) being expected to sell beyond $10k.  my lens is a reasonably priced tamron 200-400mm, don't remember the cost.

my lens actually provides the same magnification as that giant lens, believe it or else.  ...just at fantastically slower speeds proportional to the fantastically lower cost.  (although on a sunny day at iso 200, i'm at least above a thousanth of a second, pretty much required even with a monopod but still not too shabby.)  plus, this giant lens is designed to be optically doubled from the start, and could probably be quadrupled with still usable shutter speeds.  in contrast, with my lens plus a doubler, the shutter speeds are too slow to be useful in windy conditions (or iso too high to compensate).  anyway, like a large reflector telescope and other big camera lenses, this giant one is designed to gather more ligth faster, rather than maximize the zoom. 

serious amateur astronomy is usually more about photographing relatively large objects like nebulae and "nearby" galaxies (m31 is the width of a full moon in the sky), which requires capturing as much light as fast and cleanly as possible.  which, all things being equal (such as tracker mount, optical quality, and cooled ccd), means buying the largest objective lens or primary mirror you can afford.  fagan could probably elaborate and correct any mirepresentations on that.  maximizing the zoom factor in amateur astronomy isn't usually the main objective.  (another reason bishop's criticisms are so laughable to those who are informed.)

extreme zoom isn't that useful for normal terrestrial photography either, due to the very quickly reached limits of atmospheric haze and distortion even on clear days.  640 of 35mm effective zoom is pushing it on the clearest of days.  1280mm doubled is way beyond it.  (it's not bad for photographing not-so-far-away things like small critters and birds though.)  seeing frisbees and children on a beach from 33 miles at sea level is not even remotely realistic, regardless of zoom level, or flat or round earth.  (it's certainly possible from space though, but then they aren't looking through 33 miles of sea-level density haze and temperature-related distortion.)

people like bishop just don't have even the most basic understanding of astronomy or photography, which explains his completely uninformed remarks and clearly, utterly blatant lies that betray his total ignorance of the subjects.  (hell, he has one of the cheapest telescopes made, and claims to use it to spy on children on a beach 33 miles away - yet has never observed the ubiquitous and glorious orion nebula.)

edit: fixed a misspelling important to meaning, added bold
« Last Edit: December 19, 2007, 12:36:16 AM by cpt_bthimes »

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Chacotay

Re: my evidence
« Reply #26 on: December 19, 2007, 12:25:46 AM »
Wow... I thought that was just a lense... 'til I saw the camera on the end.

How much did that set you back?

i wish!  that's not my lens.  i tried to find the page that listed the expected list price but couldn't.  i remember it (from several months ago) being expected to sell beyond $10k.  my lens is a reasonably priced tamron 200-400mm, don't remember the cost.

my lens actually provides the same magnification as that giant lens, believe it or else.  ...just at fantastically slower speeds proportional to the fantastically lower cost.  (although on a sunny day at iso 200, i'm at least above a thousanth of a second, pretty much required even with a monopod but still not too shabby.)  plus, this giant lens is designed to be optically doubled from the start, and could probably be quadrupled with still usable shutter speeds.  in contrast, with my lens plus a doubler, the shutter speeds are too slow to be useful in windy conditions (or iso too high to compensate).  anyway, like a large reflector telescope and other big camera lenses, this giant one is designed to gather more like faster, rather than maximize the zoom. 

serious amateur astronomy is usually more about photographing relatively large objects like nebulae and "nearby" galaxies (andromeda is the width of a full moon in the sky), which requires capturing as much light as fast and cleanly as possible.  which, all things being equal (such as tracker, mount, and optical quality), means buying the largest objective lens or primary mirror you can afford.  fagan could probably elaborate and correct any mirepresentations on that.  maximizing the zoom factor isn't usually the main objective.  (another reason bishop's criticisms are so laughable to those who are informed.)

similarly, extreme zoom isn't that useful for normal terrestrial photography, due to the very quickly reached limits of atmospheric haze and distortion even on clear days.  (it's not bad for photographing small critters like birds though.)  seeing frisbees and children on a beach from 33 miles is not even remotely realistic, regardless of zoom level or flat or round earth.  (it's certainly possible from space though, but then they aren't looking through 33 miles of sea-level density haze and temperature-related distortion.)

people like bishop just don't have even the most basic understanding of astronomy or photography, which explains his completely uninformed remarks and clearly, utterly blatant lies that betray his total ignorance of the subjects.  (hell, he has one of the cheapest telescopes made, and claims to use it to spy on children on a beach 33 miles away - yet has never observed the ubiquitous and glorious orion nebula.)

Agreed. I know almost nothing of photography, but my physics degree says that all makes sense. I don't 'spose we could clean that up with a little interferometrics? They use it to help negate some of the images of space from Earth... I supposed you could use a similar principle on the ground.

Then again, it could just be me thinking out loud again ;)

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cpt_bthimes

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Re: my evidence
« Reply #27 on: December 19, 2007, 12:42:14 AM »
interferometry (sp?) is used to increase angular resolution, not necessarily light-gathering power.  at least that's my understanding of it.  with the goal being things such as resolving the actual discs of extra-solar planets.  increasing angular resolution would unfortunately do nothing to help see through the "fog of the atmosphere" (as bishop calls it but completely erroneously describes as "atoms getting in the way").  optics capable of grossly exceeding the limits of visibility and useful resolution are already available at affordable prices (such as my lens optically doubled, with a tripod and clear but non-windy day [or properly wind-sheltered]).

again, fagan would probably be the expert to weigh in on this.

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Chacotay

Re: my evidence
« Reply #28 on: December 19, 2007, 12:46:37 AM »
interferometry (sp?) is used to increase angular resolution, not necessarily light-gathering power.  at least that's my understanding of it.  with the goal being things such as resolving the actual discs of extra-solar planets.  increasing angular resolution would unfortunately do nothing to help see through the "fog of the atmosphere" (as bishop calls it but completely erroneously describes as "atoms getting in the way").  optics capable of grossly exceeding the limits of visibility and useful resolution are already available at affordable prices (such as my lens optically doubled, with a tripod and clear but non-windy day [or properly wind-sheltered]).

again, fagan would probably be the expert to weigh in on this.

That is one use of interferometry yes... actually I think I might have been thinking of something more along the lines of a phased array (it's completely possible it's called something else, but I got it confused with interferometry). You have two or more light gathering devices, then overlay them to see what is garbage and what is not (in layman's terms). I think it's the same principle as IFM, but works in a slightly different way.

Then again, this is all off the top of my head.

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cpt_bthimes

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Re: my evidence
« Reply #29 on: December 19, 2007, 12:48:37 AM »
arguing with a paragraph generator? If you wanna do it one that is more your speed is here www.jabberwacky.com

bishop, which would win in the quarter mile: an f-16, or a key lime pie?