Exclusive Evidence

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Loard Z

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Re: Exclusive Evidence
« Reply #30 on: December 13, 2007, 08:04:06 AM »
Read. Lol'd. Reported.
if i remember, austria is an old, dis-used name for what is now Germany.
See My Greatness

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Mrs. Peach

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Re: Exclusive Evidence
« Reply #31 on: December 13, 2007, 08:34:27 AM »
It was hilarious.  But when the mask is allowed to slip, also revealing.

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eric bloedow

Re: Exclusive Evidence
« Reply #32 on: December 13, 2007, 09:04:49 AM »
the shadow object causes lunar eclipses by passing between the sun and the moon? well, there are a number of problems with that: for starters, it contradicts every part of the FE explanation for the phases of the moon!

it would also have to be larger than the sun to cause a total eclipse...unless the sun is much smaller than the moon!

and that still doesn't explain why it has never blocked any stars!

that's exactly why i say FE is "incoherent": their answers for different phenomena contradict each other!

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cpt_bthimes

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Re: Exclusive Evidence
« Reply #33 on: December 13, 2007, 10:13:56 AM »
bishop we all know you have no idea what all that bs means.  you cannot work through a real example to show how it can arrive at an actual testable prediction.  i have challenged you repeatedly to do so, and you have failed every time.  it's time to either quit posting this ridiculous bullshit, or put your money where your mouth is.  you sad little man.  but you won't.

It is time to leave the internet once you get worked up over nothing. Tom Bishop is, at least, always posting with dignity. Your challenge has been heard and I'll try to predict the next lunar eclipse with Dr Rowbotham's formulae.

are you suggesting it's time for me to leave the internet?  i tried leaving it before, but it stalked me and keyed my car.  besides, i depend on it in part for income, so i would have to give up my lavish lifestyle of sex, drugs, and rock and roll.  well, maybe without the "lavish" and "drugs" and "rock" parts.

i am eagerly awaiting [sincerely] a walkthrough of the above formulaes to making a testable prediction!  i am convinced that i speak for a large number of this forum's currently active members both fe and re.  this could literally be a seminal accomplishment in fe theory.  and i in no way want to see that fail.  and i have gained alot of respect for you by at least committing to try.

(i would love nothing more than to have my understanding of the world turned around.  it would be like a ufo landing in my yard and personally abducting me.  although unlikely, it's not impossible, and i would giggle like a schoolgirl all the way at realizing i was so profoundly wrong.  [at least until the probing part.])

edit: just want to add, tristan, you have set yourself far apart from bishop.  bishop would never even think of saying "well i'll give those formulas a whack".  he just copy/pastes them but has no idea what they mean, how they work, or how they could make testable predictions.  his motto clearly is: if you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit.  so, i don't care if you mildly insult me or not: kudos to you!
« Last Edit: December 13, 2007, 10:17:57 AM by cpt_bthimes »

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Tristan Lachman

  • 39
  • Flat Earther
Re: Exclusive Evidence
« Reply #34 on: December 13, 2007, 01:36:55 PM »
It's an impossible challenge, as those formulae are not meant to be used to calculate when there's an eclipse. The title is TO FIND THE TIME, MAGNITUDE, AND DURATION OF A LUNAR ECLIPSE. Rowbotham instead tells us to find patterns in eclipse tables like the ancients to predict when there's an eclipse.

Quote from: Rowbotham
The simplest method of ascertaining any future eclipse is to take the tables which have been formed during hundreds of years of careful observation; or each observer may form his own tables by collecting a number of old almanacks one for each of the last forty years: separate the times of the eclipses in each year, and arrange them in a tabular form. On looking over the various items he will soon discover parallel cases, or "cycles" of eclipses; that is, taking the eclipses in the first year of his table, and examining those of each succeeding year, he will notice peculiarities in each year's phenomena; but on arriving to the items of the nineteenth and twentieth years, he will perceive that some of the eclipses in the earlier part of the table will have been now repeated--that is to say, the times and characters will be alike. If the time which has elapsed between these two parallel or similar eclipses be carefully noted, and called a "cycle," it will then be a very simple and easy matter to predict any future similar eclipse, because, at the end of the "cycle," such similar eclipse will be certain to occur; or, at least, because such repetitions of similar phenomena have occurred in every cycle of between eighteen and nineteen years during the last several thousand years, it may be reasonably expected that if the natural world continues to have the same general structure and character, such repetitions may be predicted for all future time. The whole process is neither more nor less--except a little more complicated--than that because an express train had been observed for many years to pass a given point at a given second--say of every eighteenth day, so at a similar moment of every cycle or eighteenth day, for a hundred or more years to. come, the same might be predicted and expected. To tell the actual day and second, it is only necessary to ascertain on what day of the week the eighteenth or "cycle day" falls.

Tables of the places of the sun and moon, of eclipses, and of kindred phenomena, have existed for thousands of years, and w ere formed independently of each other, by the Chaldean, Babylonian, Egyptian, Hindoo, Chinese, and other ancient astronomers. Modern science has had nothing to do with these; farther than rendering them a little more exact, by averaging and reducing the fractional errors which a longer period of observation has detected.

I wrote a mathematically rigorous walkthrough for the duration formula, with modern notations, to prove that Rowbotham was not just being cryptical.



The small balls represent the moon, the big ball is the eclipse shadow.

α := |SB| [euclidian distance from S to B]

μ := the moon's semi-diameter = |BM|

λ := the moon's latitude in opposition = |So|



With a basic trigonometry formula, we can calculate cos n:

cos n = adjacent / hypotenuse = |Sm| / λ

=> |Sm| = λ.cos n

The Pythagoras' theorem yields |SM|² = |Mm|² + |Sm|²

=> |Mm|² = |SM|² - |Sm|²

  = (|SB| + |BM|)² - |Sm|²

  = (α + μ)² - (λ cos n)²

  = (α + μ)² - λ² cos² n

=> |Mm| =

h := speed of the moon (in longitude)

duration of the eclipse = (|Mm| + |Nm|) / h

  = 2 |Mm| / h (symetry, |Nm| = |Mm|)

And Rowbotham wrote:



Note that an α was lost, but it's an obvious typo.

Quote from: Rowbotham
The formulæ above quoted are entirely superfluous, because they add nothing to our knowledge of the causes of eclipses, and would not enable us to predict anything which has not hundreds of times already occurred. Hence all the labour of calculation is truly effort thrown away, and may be altogether dispensed with by adopting the simple process referred in the previous quote.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2007, 05:13:54 AM by Tristan Lachman »

Re: Exclusive Evidence
« Reply #35 on: December 13, 2007, 02:06:10 PM »
the moon is about a qauter of the size of the Earth, so the moon is 400 times smaller than the sun. But coincidently the sun is also 400 times further away from us than the moon is. Which is why when the moon lines up with sun, it blocks it almost completely, and reveals it corona. apparently

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Tom Bishop

  • Flat Earth Believer
  • 18016
Re: Exclusive Evidence
« Reply #36 on: December 13, 2007, 02:14:42 PM »
Quote
2. I don't know for sure that the Earth causes the shadow on the moon, but based on my observations it seems thousands of times more likely.

What observations have you made demonstrating that the shadow cast upon the moon during a lunar eclipse comes from the earth?

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Tom Bishop

  • Flat Earth Believer
  • 18016
Re: Exclusive Evidence
« Reply #37 on: December 13, 2007, 07:07:03 PM »
Quote
2. The placement of the sun and light on the moon day after day, night after night, for my whole life. Wherever the sun is, the moon reflects light from its direction.

Yes. That tells us that the moon receives it's light from the sun. But what evidence is there showing that the shadow upon the moon during the lunar eclipse is projected by the earth?

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cpt_bthimes

  • 553
  • exposer of lies
Re: Exclusive Evidence
« Reply #38 on: December 13, 2007, 09:06:23 PM »
It's an impossible challenge, as those formulae are not meant to be used to calculate when there's an eclipse. The title is TO FIND THE TIME, MAGNITUDE, AND DURATION OF A LUNAR ECLIPSE. Rowbotham instead tells us to find patterns in eclipse tables like the ancients to predict when there's an eclipse.

Quote from: Rowbotham
The simplest method of ascertaining any future eclipse is to take the tables which have been formed during hundreds of years of careful observation; or each observer may form his own tables by collecting a number of old almanacks one for each of the last forty years: separate the times of the eclipses in each year, and arrange them in a tabular form. On looking over the various items he will soon discover parallel cases, or "cycles" of eclipses; that is, taking the eclipses in the first year of his table, and examining those of each succeeding year, he will notice peculiarities in each year's phenomena; but on arriving to the items of the nineteenth and twentieth years, he will perceive that some of the eclipses in the earlier part of the table will have been now repeated--that is to say, the times and characters will be alike. If the time which has elapsed between these two parallel or similar eclipses be carefully noted, and called a "cycle," it will then be a very simple and easy matter to predict any future similar eclipse, because, at the end of the "cycle," such similar eclipse will be certain to occur; or, at least, because such repetitions of similar phenomena have occurred in every cycle of between eighteen and nineteen years during the last several thousand years, it may be reasonably expected that if the natural world continues to have the same general structure and character, such repetitions may be predicted for all future time. The whole process is neither more nor less--except a little more complicated--than that because an express train had been observed for many years to pass a given point at a given second--say of every eighteenth day, so at a similar moment of every cycle or eighteenth day, for a hundred or more years to. come, the same might be predicted and expected. To tell the actual day and second, it is only necessary to ascertain on what day of the week the eighteenth or "cycle day" falls.

Tables of the places of the sun and moon, of eclipses, and of kindred phenomena, have existed for thousands of years, and w ere formed independently of each other, by the Chaldean, Babylonian, Egyptian, Hindoo, Chinese, and other ancient astronomers. Modern science has had nothing to do with these; farther than rendering them a little more exact, by averaging and reducing the fractional errors which a longer period of observation has detected.

I wrote a mathematically rigorous walkthrough for the duration formula, with modern notations, to prove that Rowbotham was not just being cryptical.

...

Quote from: Rowbotham
The formulæ above quoted are entirely superfluous, because they add nothing to our knowledge of the causes of eclipses, and would not enable us to predict anything which has not hundreds of times already occurred. Hence all the labour of calculation is truly effort thrown away, and may be altogether dispensed with by adopting the simple process referred in the previous quote.

that's really interesting tristan.  let me repeat back what i think you said, because i'm not sure i've digested your synopsis correctly:

- rowbotham never intended the formulas to be used for predicting the date of eclipses.  (did he create them?)

- he suggested instead to rely on past observations for future predictions.

- rowbotham did not believe these formulas add to an understanding of how the eclipses occur in the fe model.

is that accurate?  did i leave out any important summarizing points?  did you find the formulas to be accurate in predicting duration and magnitude?

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Optimus Prime

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Re: Exclusive Evidence
« Reply #39 on: December 13, 2007, 09:58:16 PM »
Ehrm, another interesting note is that the Egyptians were the first ones to denote a spherical earth after the Sumarians...?

Dyslexics are teople poo!

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Tristan Lachman

  • 39
  • Flat Earther
Re: Exclusive Evidence
« Reply #40 on: December 14, 2007, 05:04:31 AM »
- rowbotham never intended the formulas to be used for predicting the date of eclipses.  (did he create them?)

It's quite possible that he didn't create them.

- he suggested instead to rely on past observations for future predictions.

Yes, because history has proven that eclipses follow a cycle.

did i leave out any important summarizing points?

Nope.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2007, 05:14:09 AM by Tristan Lachman »

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cpt_bthimes

  • 553
  • exposer of lies
Re: Exclusive Evidence
« Reply #41 on: December 14, 2007, 10:08:27 AM »
- rowbotham never intended the formulas to be used for predicting the date of eclipses.  (did he create them?)

It's quite possible that he didn't create them.

- he suggested instead to rely on past observations for future predictions.

Yes, because history has proven that eclipses follow a cycle.

did i leave out any important summarizing points?

Nope.

great.  so i might use your synopsis for a purpose you had not intended, so don't let me make an assertion you did not intend or otherwise put words in your mouth:

1) rowbotham's formula is useless for predicting eclipses. 

2) the re model, however, routinely predicts eclipses - based on the model and it's formulas, not the patterns of past eclipses.

3) bishop should stop posting it because it is irrelevant and does not advance the fe cause.

if this is about it, i'm going to bookmark it and every time he posts those forumulas again, i'm going to counter with this.

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Midnight

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Re: Exclusive Evidence
« Reply #42 on: December 14, 2007, 10:18:32 AM »
Ehrm, another interesting note is that the Egyptians were the first ones to denote a spherical earth after the Sumarians...?

Like Tom, most of the dipshits arguing about this mindlessness will ignore your point because it derails their entire exchange into meaninglessness.

Bumped for lulz. :-8
My problem with his ideas is that it is a ridiculous thing.

Genius. PURE, undiluted genius.

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cpt_bthimes

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Re: Exclusive Evidence
« Reply #43 on: December 14, 2007, 10:32:56 AM »
Ehrm, another interesting note is that the Egyptians were the first ones to denote a spherical earth after the Sumarians...?

Like Tom, most of the dipshits arguing about this mindlessness will ignore your point because it derails their entire exchange into meaninglessness.

Bumped for lulz. :-8

most of the people arguing about anything will ignore your point because your avatar causes massive headaches if not outright seizures.  (i am immune - i disabled animated gifs.)  it was a cool video to be sure, but dude - the internet is overloaded enough as it is with flashy blinky stuff in desperate bids for grabbing attention against viewers' wills.  you have some good arguments to make - why not let them be heard.

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Tristan Lachman

  • 39
  • Flat Earther
Re: Exclusive Evidence
« Reply #44 on: December 14, 2007, 11:04:39 AM »
2) the re model, however, routinely predicts eclipses - based on the model and it's formulas, not the patterns of past eclipses.

The FE model is incomplete but it doesn't make the RE model better.

if this is about it, i'm going to bookmark it and every time he posts those forumulas again, i'm going to counter with this.

It still predicts the time, magnitude and duration of a lunar eclipse.

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cpt_bthimes

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Re: Exclusive Evidence
« Reply #45 on: December 14, 2007, 11:18:50 AM »
2) the re model, however, routinely predicts eclipses - based on the model and it's formulas, not the patterns of past eclipses.

The FE model is incomplete but it doesn't make the RE model better.

true, which should be self-evident.  but because the fe model is incomplete, does make the re model a better *choice* out of the competing ideas.

It still predicts the time, magnitude and duration of a lunar eclipse.

actually i meant to ask you about that.  how does it predict the time, but not the date?