living on the edge...

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JohnDavidson

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living on the edge...
« on: December 05, 2007, 08:24:30 AM »
If a flat earth exists, where would the atmosphere end?

Let's say Bob jumped clean off the edge of Earth. How long would Bob fall for before he can't breathe anymore?

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divito the truthist

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Re: living on the edge...
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2007, 08:51:54 AM »
Would probably end at the Ice Wall.

Or the Earth is infinite as the Username claims. I forget their calculations in regards to what that means for the atmosphere or if they did them, but he'll have to comment on that.
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Raist

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Re: living on the edge...
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2007, 09:38:44 AM »
If a flat earth exists, where would the atmosphere end?

Let's say Bob jumped clean off the edge of Earth. How long would Bob fall for before he can't breathe anymore?

Immediately in any case. The atmosphere is above the Earth.

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Trekky0623

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Re: living on the edge...
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2007, 10:33:45 AM »
Wouldn't the atmpshpere ALSO have to be infinite, other wise, the atmosphere would spread out like spilled water.

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divito the truthist

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Re: living on the edge...
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2007, 10:36:05 AM »
Wouldn't the atmpshpere ALSO have to be infinite, other wise, the atmosphere would spread out like spilled water.

Pretty sure Username and someone else worked out that it didn't have to be the case, but it'd be really hard to find what thread that was in, so I'll just wait for him to show up.
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Spacehopperjoe

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Re: living on the edge...
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2007, 10:48:09 AM »
If a flat earth exists, where would the atmosphere end?

Let's say Bob jumped clean off the edge of Earth. How long would Bob fall for before he can't breathe anymore?


Rumour has it the atmosphere stops 20m before the actual "edge" of the world. So bob would probably fall for about the time it takes him to hit the ice 2 foot short of the edge.
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JohnDavidson

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Re: living on the edge...
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2007, 10:49:17 AM »
If a flat earth exists, where would the atmosphere end?

Let's say Bob jumped clean off the edge of Earth. How long would Bob fall for before he can't breathe anymore?


Rumour has it the atmosphere stops 20m before the actual "edge" of the world. So bob would probably fall for about the time it takes him to hit the ice 2 foot short of the edge.

Oh my god, that totally makes sense. I think you've stumbled across something here  ::)

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Username

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Re: living on the edge...
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2007, 01:43:38 PM »
Yeah the earth and atmosphere would be infinite.  I don't believe we have done the calculations though, but I'm honestly not sure what calculations would be relevent.  I suppose I will read up on it when I get some free time.
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Re: living on the edge...
« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2007, 10:45:41 AM »
so now there's a theory the earth is infinite as well as flat? if thats the case then is it okay if any1 explain gravity to me again?  i know how gravity works in the flat earth model where the planet is finite, but im having trouble gettin my head around this infinite theory.

Username, i understand you're uncertain of the infinite earth thing (in this case), so its kool if you or anyone else takes some time in getting back to me on this one. :)
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Username

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Re: living on the edge...
« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2007, 11:18:58 AM »
It works the same as round earth gravitation.  The only thing that should be reminded is that infinite mass does not necessarily = infinite gravitational pull.
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James

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Re: living on the edge...
« Reply #10 on: December 18, 2007, 04:41:38 PM »
Yeah, non-infinite-Earth-model FEers such as myself hold that the atmolayer terminates at the Icewall.
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Tom Bishop

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Re: living on the edge...
« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2007, 06:28:19 PM »
Yeah, non-infinite-Earth-model FEers such as myself hold that the atmolayer terminates at the Icewall.

Have you considered the possibility that there is no necessity for a hypothetical 40,000 foot tall Ice Wall beyond the Antarctic rim to contain the atmosphere on a finite Flat Earth? The earth can simply end without the atmosphere leaking into space.

In order for barometric pressure to rise and fall, an element of heat must be present. Heat creates pressure. A lack of heat results in a drop in pressure. These two elements are tightly correlated in modern physics.

In our local area the heat of the day comes from the sun, moving and swashing around wind currents from areas of low pressures to areas of high pressures with its heat. The coldness of the Antarctic tundra keeps the pressure low. Beyond the known world, where the rays of the sun do not reach, the tundra of ice and snow lays in perpetual darkness. If one could move away from the Antarctic rim into the uncharted tundra the surrounding temperatures would drop lower and lower until it nears absolute zero. Defining the exact length of the gradient would take some looking into, but at a significant distance past the edge of the Ice Wall temperatures will drop to a point where barometric pressure nears the zero mark. At this point, whether it be thousands or millions of miles beyond the Antarctic rim, the world can end without the atmosphere leaking into space.

The atmosphere may exist as a lip upon the surface of the earth, held in by vast gradients of declining pressure. 
« Last Edit: December 18, 2007, 06:37:55 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Chacotay

Re: living on the edge...
« Reply #12 on: December 18, 2007, 09:48:59 PM »
Yeah, non-infinite-Earth-model FEers such as myself hold that the atmolayer terminates at the Icewall.

Have you considered the possibility that there is no necessity for a hypothetical 40,000 foot tall Ice Wall beyond the Antarctic rim to contain the atmosphere on a finite Flat Earth? The earth can simply end without the atmosphere leaking into space.

In order for barometric pressure to rise and fall, an element of heat must be present. Heat creates pressure. A lack of heat results in a drop in pressure. These two elements are tightly correlated in modern physics.

In our local area the heat of the day comes from the sun, moving and swashing around wind currents from areas of low pressures to areas of high pressures with its heat. The coldness of the Antarctic tundra keeps the pressure low. Beyond the known world, where the rays of the sun do not reach, the tundra of ice and snow lays in perpetual darkness. If one could move away from the Antarctic rim into the uncharted tundra the surrounding temperatures would drop lower and lower until it nears absolute zero. Defining the exact length of the gradient would take some looking into, but at a significant distance past the edge of the Ice Wall temperatures will drop to a point where barometric pressure nears the zero mark. At this point, whether it be thousands or millions of miles beyond the Antarctic rim, the world can end without the atmosphere leaking into space.

The atmosphere may exist as a lip upon the surface of the earth, held in by vast gradients of declining pressure. 

...And I didn't think it was possible for anyone to skew the laws of physics and chemistry to such a degree.

The pressure laws you referred to are the Gas laws (funny that). Just skimming over that, and using a little logic - we can prove that a change in temperature/pressure/volume can in no way hold in the atmosphere.

Nature has a tendancy of moving things from high concentration to low concentration. Indeed, you can test this for yourself with a balloon - the only reason it expands is because the higher-pressure air inside tries to stay at the same pressure by expanding to increase it's volume (one of the gas laws).

If, as you say, there is no definable force holding in the atmosphere, then it'd just bleed off into "space". It would do this in the RE model too, if it wasn't for gravity.


Explain.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: living on the edge...
« Reply #13 on: December 18, 2007, 10:13:24 PM »
Quote
The pressure laws you referred to are the Gas laws (funny that). Just skimming over that, and using a little logic - we can prove that a change in temperature/pressure/volume can in no way hold in the atmosphere.

Did you forget that near the point of absolute zero, all molecular movement stops?
« Last Edit: December 18, 2007, 10:22:22 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Chacotay

Re: living on the edge...
« Reply #14 on: December 18, 2007, 10:20:14 PM »
Quote
The pressure laws you referred to are the Gas laws (funny that). Just skimming over that, and using a little logic - we can prove that a change in temperature/pressure/volume can in no way hold in the atmosphere.

Did you forget that near the point of absolute zero, all molecular movement stops?
And enters a state known as the Bose-Einstein condensate? Yeah, I've studied it thoroughly. What I can tell you is that you'd have to be billionths of a degree above AZ in order for it to occur. The funny thing about it is that having a layer of BEC around the atmosphere isn't a good excuse for why it doesn't continue to seep out, as the Pauli Exlusion Principle doesn't seem to effect molecules in the same way in this state. The result of this is that the matter is then able to exist in the same quantum state all around (each molecule having the same set of quantum numbers), and can occupy almost the same physical state. Basically it means that as you get towards AZ, matter collapses in on itself, and forms these Bose-Einstein condensates.

This, when applied to the atmosphere model here means that there would be no overall change in the pressure of the system (as there would merely be "hotspots" of density"), therefor the flow of atmosphere would continue to seep out into space.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: living on the edge...
« Reply #15 on: December 18, 2007, 10:22:31 PM »
Quote
What I can tell you is that you'd have to be billionths of a degree above AZ in order for it to occur.

The pressure, or molecular movement, of an environment decreases and increases when the temperature is adjusted.

We can use the Gay-Lussac Gas Law to see that temperature is tied to pressure in the most intimate of ways. Read the link. As temperature increases, pressure increases. Subsequently, as temperature decreases, pressure decreases.

Summarily, the pressure of a fixed amount of gas at fixed volume is directly proportional to its temperature in kelvins. As a gas expands, the average distance between molecules grows. Because of intermolecular attractive forces, expansion causes an increase in the potential energy of the gas. If no external work is extracted in the process and no heat is transferred, the total energy of the gas remains the same because of the conservation of energy. The increase in potential energy thus means a decrease in kinetic energy and therefore in temperature. This relation can be expressed mathematically as p/T= constant or p1/T1 = p2/T2.

---

Example 1 from the link:

Question: Consider an environment with a volume of 22.4 L filled with a gas at 1.00 atm at 273 K. What will be the new pressure if the temperature increases to 298 K?

Solution: Using Gay-Lussac's Law and solving for p2 we get:


           p1T2                 (1.00 atm)(298 K)
    p2 = -----          p2 = -----------------
            T1                         (273 K)
   

Or, p2 = 1.09 atm

Note: When the temperature increases, the pressure increases!
Also note that it is essential to use temperature on an absolute scale (i.e. use Kelvin instead of oC!)

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Using this formula lets make our own Example 2:

Question: Consider an environment with a volume of 22.4 L filled with a gas at 1.00 atm at 273 K. What will be the new pressure if the temperature is decreased to 0.0000000001 K?

Solution: Using Gay-Lussac's Law and solving for p2 we get:


           p1T2                 (1.00 atm)(0.0000000001 K)
    p2 = -----          p2 = -----------------
            T1                         (273 K)

p2= 0.00000000000037 atm

Thus we see that an environment with a temperature of 0.0000000001 K has a standard atmosphere of 0.00000000000037 atm

Ergo we see that the amount of atmosphere is hardly anything at all; that if the temperature at the edges of the earth were sufficiently low there would be hardly an atmosphere which could be lost at the edges of the atmosphere gradient. According to an online pressure converter, atoms at the edge of the earth would be pushed out at a force of of 0.000000037 newtons per square meter [N/M2]. This is hardly significant; perhaps a few atoms per hour. And this is assuming that space is a perfect vacuum. It's not.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2007, 10:43:01 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Tom Bishop

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Re: living on the edge...
« Reply #16 on: December 18, 2007, 10:40:44 PM »
As we can see, from basic physics we know that gases have various properties that we can observe with our senses, including the gas pressure (p), temperature (T), mass, and the volume that contains the gas. Careful, scientific observation has determined that these variables are related to one another and that the values of these properties determine the state of the gas.

p/T= constant

In a scientific manner, we can fix any two of the four primary properties and study the nature of the relationship between the other two by varying one and observing the variation of the other.

In the following schematic we see the effect of changing pressure on temperature. The pressure can be changed by adding or removing green weights from the top of the red piston. Ergo when we change the pressure of an environment we change the temperature.

In the following schematic we see the effect of changing temperature on pressure. The temperature is changed by adding heat from the torch. The volume is held constant with the piston. Ergo when we change the temperature of an environment we change the pressure.

Hence, we see that in an environment with zero temperature there is zero pressure. With zero pressure, winds cannot move from one area to the next. Zero pressure is a vacuum.

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Chacotay

Re: living on the edge...
« Reply #17 on: December 18, 2007, 10:42:28 PM »
Quote
What I can tell you is that you'd have to be billionths of a degree above AZ in order for it to occur.

The pressure, or molecular movement, of a container decreases and increases when the temperature is adjusted.

We can use the Gay-Lussac Gas Law to see that temperature is tied to pressure in the most intimate of ways. Read the link. As temperature increases, pressure increases. Subsequently, as temperature decreases, pressure decreases.

Summarily, the pressure of a fixed amount of gas at fixed volume is directly proportional to its temperature in kelvins. As a gas expands, the average distance between molecules grows. Because of intermolecular attractive forces, expansion causes an increase in the potential energy of the gas. If no external work is extracted in the process and no heat is transferred, the total energy of the gas remains the same because of the conservation of energy. The increase in potential energy thus means a decrease in kinetic energy and therefore in temperature. This relation can be expressed mathematically as p/T= constant or p1/T1 = p2/T2.

---

Example 1 from the link:

Question: Consider an environment with a volume of 22.4 L filled with a gas at 1.00 atm at 273 K. What will be the new pressure if the temperature increases to 298 K?

Solution: Using Gay-Lussac's Law and solving for p2 we get:


           p1T2                 (1.00 atm)(298 K)
    p2 = -----          p2 = -----------------
            T1                         (273 K)
   

Or, p2 = 1.09 atm

Note: When the temperature increases, the pressure increases!
Also note that it is essential to use temperature on an absolute scale (i.e. use Kelvin instead of oC!)

---

Using this formula lets make our own Example 2:

Question: Consider an environment with a volume of 22.4 L filled with a gas at 1.00 atm at 273 K. What will be the new pressure if the temperature is decreased to 0.0000000001 K?

Solution: Using Gay-Lussac's Law and solving for p2 we get:


           p1T2                 (1.00 atm)(0.0000000001 K)
    p2 = -----          p2 = -----------------
            T1                         (273 K)

p2= 0.00000000000037 atm

Thus we see that a container with a temperature of 0.0000000001 K has a standard atmosphere of 0.00000000000037 atm

Ergo we see that the amount of atmosphere is hardly anything at all; that if the temperature at the edges of the earth were sufficiently low there would be hardly an atmosphere which could be lost at the edges of the atmosphere gradient. According to an online pressure converter, atoms at the edge of the earth would be pushed out at a force of of 0.000000037 newtons per square meter [N/M2]. This is hardly significant; perhaps a few atoms per hour. And this is assuming that space is a perfect vacuum. It's not.
Do you forget that you must be behind something in order to push it? It will not be the new pressure of extremely low temperture that will push the atmosphere out. Rather, it will be the entire weight of the amosphere under the influence of gravity/acceleration (whichever you believe). It just means that the pressure from outside, where the temperature is low, will be pushing back with very little force.

I don't think your post addressed my question correctly. Explain.

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Chacotay

Re: living on the edge...
« Reply #18 on: December 18, 2007, 10:44:57 PM »
As we can see, from basic physics we know that gases have various properties that we can observe with our senses, including the gas pressure (p), temperature (T), mass, and the volume that contains the gas. Careful, scientific observation has determined that these variables are related to one another and that the values of these properties determine the state of the gas.

p/T= constant

In a scientific manner, we can fix any two of the four primary properties and study the nature of the relationship between the other two by varying one and observing the variation of the other.

In the following schematic we see the effect of changing pressure on temperature. The pressure can be changed by adding or removing green weights from the top of the red piston. Ergo when we change the pressure of an environment we change the temperature.

In the following schematic we see the effect of changing temperature on pressure. The temperature is changed by adding heat from the torch. The volume is held constant with the piston. Ergo when we change the temperature of an environment we change the pressure.

Hence, we see that in an environment with zero temperature there is zero pressure. With zero pressure, winds cannot move from one area to the next. Zero pressure is a vacuum.
Quote from: Tom Bishop
And this is assuming that space is a perfect vacuum. It's not.

Not only does that contradict each other, but that is also wrong. Zero pressure doesn't have a force, but the pressure of the atmosphere does, as I explained in my previous post.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: living on the edge...
« Reply #19 on: December 18, 2007, 10:47:53 PM »
Quote
Do you forget that you must be behind something in order to push it? It will not be the new pressure of extremely low temperture that will push the atmosphere out. Rather, it will be the entire weight of the amosphere under the influence of gravity/acceleration (whichever you believe). It just means that the pressure from outside, where the temperature is low, will be pushing back with very little force.

I don't think your post addressed my question correctly. Explain.

At the edges of the earth, perhaps millions of miles beyond the Antarctic rim where temperatures are abysmally low the density of the atmosphere would be so incredibly sparce that there may as well not be an atmosphere at all. There is no significant "weight" of an atmosphere for gravity/acceleration to push outwards. At that distance and in that environment the atmosphere would exist as a small number of highly spaced out atoms which barely interact with each other.

Remember, the atmosphere would be constantly decreasing in pressure (and therefore density) as the lands recede southward.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2007, 10:57:52 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Chacotay

Re: living on the edge...
« Reply #20 on: December 18, 2007, 10:53:06 PM »
Quote
Do you forget that you must be behind something in order to push it? It will not be the new pressure of extremely low temperture that will push the atmosphere out. Rather, it will be the entire weight of the amosphere under the influence of gravity/acceleration (whichever you believe). It just means that the pressure from outside, where the temperature is low, will be pushing back with very little force.

I don't think your post addressed my question correctly. Explain.

At the edges of the earth, perhaps millions of miles beyond the Antarctic rim where temperatures are abysmally low the density of the atmosphere would be so incredibly space that there may as well not be an atmosphere at all. There is no significant "weight" of an atmosphere for gravity/acceleration to push outwards. At that distance and in that environment the atmosphere would exist as a small number of highly spaced out atoms which barely interact with each other.

Remember, the atmosphere would be constantly decreasing in density (and therefore pressure) as the lands recede southward.
So your answer is that the Atmosphere generally tapers off? How is it then that I have to wear a pressure garment if I go too high in my hot air balloon? (Well not mine... those things are expensive. It's actually owned by my uncle)

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Tom Bishop

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Re: living on the edge...
« Reply #21 on: December 18, 2007, 11:01:25 PM »
Quote
So your answer is that the Atmosphere generally tapers off? How is it then that I have to wear a pressure garment if I go too high in my hot air balloon? (Well not mine... those things are expensive. It's actually owned by my uncle)

I don't understand the argument you are trying to make here. The atmosphere is squished to the earth's surface due to gravity/acceleration. That's a given. However, the density and pressure of the atmosphere decreases with temperature. Therefore the atmosphere of the earth would become more and more scarce as the lands beyond the Antarctic rim recede away from the warmth of the sun.


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Chacotay

Re: living on the edge...
« Reply #22 on: December 18, 2007, 11:38:29 PM »
Quote
So your answer is that the Atmosphere generally tapers off? How is it then that I have to wear a pressure garment if I go too high in my hot air balloon? (Well not mine... those things are expensive. It's actually owned by my uncle)

I don't understand the argument you are trying to make here. The atmosphere is squished to the earth's surface due to gravity/acceleration. That's a given. However, the density and pressure of the atmosphere decreases with temperature. Therefore the atmosphere of the earth would become more and more scarce as the lands beyond the Antarctic rim recede away from the warmth of the sun.



Not always. Google thermosphere. You'll find a sharp jump in the temperature there. How does FE explain that?

But that's actually besides the point. What I find curious is that you find it hard to believe the sun is several million kilometers away, and hundreds of thousands of times bigger than the Earth... yet you're willing to believe that the atmosphere generally tapers off into nothingness "a million miles away" ?

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Tom Bishop

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Re: living on the edge...
« Reply #23 on: December 19, 2007, 11:54:54 AM »
Quote
Not always. Google thermosphere. You'll find a sharp jump in the temperature there. How does FE explain that?

Yes, I see your point. I found the "thermosphere" wiki page and found the quote:

"The few particles of gas in this area can reach 2,500C (4500F) during the day. Even though the temperature is so high, one would not feel warm in the thermosphere, because it is so near vacuum that there is not enough contact with the few atoms of gas to transfer much heat. A normal thermometer would read significantly below 0C."

Since the thermosphere is at the very upper fringes of the atmosphere I'd say that this is a case of too few atoms available to rise the pressure in relation to the high temperature. Gravity/acceleration keeps the body of the atmosphere below the thermosphere near the surface of the earth. The body of the atmosphere is unable to defy gravity/acceleration in order to satisfy Gay-Lussac's Gas Law which dictates what kind of pressures should exist in the temperatures of the thermosphere.

It's similar to a perfectly sealed container which consists of 500 atmospheric atoms. If we rise the temperature of the container the pressure within the container will not rise because there are no free atoms to take from the surrounding environment.

Quote
But that's actually besides the point. What I find curious is that you find it hard to believe the sun is several million kilometers away, and hundreds of thousands of times bigger than the Earth... yet you're willing to believe that the atmosphere generally tapers off into nothingness "a million miles away" ?

The sun is not several million kilometers above the surface of the earth. The sun is only 3,000 miles above the surface of the earth in Flat Earth Theory.

To illustrate this, consider the following. On March 21-22 the sun is directly overhead at the equator and appears 45 degrees above the horizon at 45 degrees north and south latitude. As the angle of sun above the earth at the equator is 90 degrees while it is 45 degrees at 45 degrees north or south latitude, it follows that the angle at the sun between the vertical from the horizon and the line from the observers at 45 degrees north and south must also be 45 degrees. The result is two right angled triangles with legs of equal length. The distance between the equator and the points at 45 degrees north or south is approximately 3,000 miles. Ergo, the sun would be an equal distance above the equator.

If the earth were a globe we can account for the earth's curvature using trigonometry and calculate the sun to be 93 million miles away. Indeed, using this type of parallax in relation to the supposed curvature of the earth is exactly how modern astronomers came up with the Astronomical Unit.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2007, 01:01:50 PM by Tom Bishop »

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James

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Re: living on the edge...
« Reply #24 on: December 20, 2007, 05:44:14 AM »
Have you considered the possibility that there is no necessity for a hypothetical 40,000 foot tall Ice Wall beyond the Antarctic rim to contain the atmosphere on a finite Flat Earth? The earth can simply end without the atmosphere leaking into space.

I'm sorry, but that's not how science works. Belief in the Icewall is a matter of reason and empiricism rather than of necessity (or lack thereof).
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