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Radar Waves

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paradiselost

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Radar Waves
« on: November 26, 2007, 09:45:02 PM »
I was reading about aircraft which can penetrate COASTAL radar systems by flying in low so the curvature of the earth covers them.

By the time the aircraft comes in range of the radar waves it is usually too late for the 'enemy' to scramble enemy fighters or whatever (although in this modern age SAM's would probably be launched, i don't care STICK TO THE TOPIC and don't start fighting about the aircraft would get shot down etc.)

Anyway, this tactic has been used by the US Air Force (and i'm sure many others) to infiltrate enemy airspace.
How would this be possible on a flat earth? (notice the COASTAL in capitals? There are no mountains to hide behind)
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TheEngineer

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Re: Radar Waves
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2007, 10:51:20 PM »
The return from the ground messes with the operators and aircraft can't be picked out of this clutter very easily.
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Re: Radar Waves
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2007, 04:57:36 AM »
The magic laws of perspective and superefraction that stop you from seeing the whole earth (i.e. FE Horizon) must also apply to the radio waves, hence why you can't send a radio signal to the other side of the planet.
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Gabe

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Re: Radar Waves
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2007, 04:59:48 AM »
Quote from: TheEngineer on November 26, 2007, 10:51:20 PM
The return from the ground messes with the operators and aircraft can't be picked out of this clutter very easily.
The return from the ocean?...
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Re: Radar Waves
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2007, 05:10:59 AM »
Quote from: Yiak on November 27, 2007, 04:59:48 AM
Quote from: TheEngineer on November 26, 2007, 10:51:20 PM
The return from the ground messes with the operators and aircraft can't be picked out of this clutter very easily.
The return from the ocean?...
Well duh, if the ocean messes with visible light (the sinking ship effect) then it can just as easily mess with radio waves, which are much lower energy and longer wavelength but still!
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TheEngineer

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Re: Radar Waves
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2007, 06:50:50 AM »
Quote from: Yiak on November 27, 2007, 04:59:48 AM
Quote from: TheEngineer on November 26, 2007, 10:51:20 PM
The return from the ground messes with the operators and aircraft can't be picked out of this clutter very easily.
The return from the ocean?...
Yes.
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eric bloedow

Re: Radar Waves
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2007, 06:59:07 AM »
hm...i've heard of people hearing radio broadcasts from very far away for short times. the explanation i heard was that the radio waves were bouncing off the inside of earth's magnetic field.

and the ocean can confuse radar on windy days when there are lots of WAVES. but on a calm day...no.
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Bytes

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Re: Radar Waves
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2007, 08:39:28 AM »
Quote from: TheEngineer on November 26, 2007, 10:51:20 PM
The return from the ground messes with the operators and aircraft can't be picked out of this clutter very easily.

Talking about ground based radar, how in the hell are you going to have return signals from the ground if the radar source is ground based?
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Username

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Re: Radar Waves
« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2007, 09:45:26 AM »
Quote from: eric bloedow on November 27, 2007, 06:59:07 AM
hm...i've heard of people hearing radio broadcasts from very far away for short times. the explanation i heard was that the radio waves were bouncing off the inside of earth's magnetic field.

and the ocean can confuse radar on windy days when there are lots of WAVES. but on a calm day...no.
I believe you are referring to when they bounce off the troposphere.
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Username

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Re: Radar Waves
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2007, 09:53:14 AM »
Quote from: Archbishop Bishop on November 27, 2007, 04:57:36 AM
The magic laws of perspective and superefraction that stop you from seeing the whole earth (i.e. FE Horizon) must also apply to the radio waves, hence why you can't send a radio signal to the other side of the planet.

Could it be that they are not magical at all and are a purely psychological phenomenon?
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Gabe

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Re: Radar Waves
« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2007, 10:35:15 AM »
Quote from: Username on November 27, 2007, 09:53:14 AM
Could it be that they are not magical at all and are a purely psychological phenomenon?
Psychological? Perspective describes our vision. If our vision was different rules of perspective would be as well. Never have I witnessed this effect even in experiment recreations, nor have I seen anything to indicate others  have found and published these results. Tom Bishop did link me up with two people's diaries but without being able to recreate the results or find them creditable, the FE laws of perspective die.

On the other note:
"Heights Above Ground Level (AGL) in NOE and low flying generally vary with the aircraft speed, manoueverability and the ruggedness of the terrain. As mentioned above, helicopters can fly very low indeed in the right circumstances, down to a few feet below the skids or wheels. Fast jets are more constrained and at a typical low-flying speed of 450 knots (800 km/h), 200 feet (60 m) is not unusual and 50 feet (15 m) is possible in relatively flat terrain."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nap-of-the-earth
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eric bloedow

Re: Radar Waves
« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2007, 01:10:29 PM »
this reminds me of a psychological pnemonenon called "ground shock" i read about. it affects skydivers.
at high altitude, they feel that they are falling slower than they actually are. but when they get close to the ground, it seems to suddenly rush toward them. this can get beginners killed: they wait too long to open the chute!

BTW, there is a limit to how fast something can fall through atmosphere before the air resistance slows it down. this is called "terminal velocity".
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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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Re: Radar Waves
« Reply #12 on: November 27, 2007, 01:11:34 PM »
Terminal velocity is possible on FE.
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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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Re: Radar Waves
« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2007, 01:17:46 PM »
Terminal velocity is the maximum velocity an object can fall at due to air resistance. Just like parachutes slow descent on RE, air is accelerated up by the Earth in FE catching a parachute to slow it in FE. Air compressed by gravity is equally compressed by acceleration and therefore the resistance is the same.
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Optimus Prime

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Re: Radar Waves
« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2007, 01:53:55 PM »
Ah well I can't help myself... actually you CAN send a radio signal to the other side of the world.
Whether your viewpoint is that the earth is Flat or Spherical, Anyone with a 10 or 15meter rig, about 100watts (heck 50 will do it in perfect conditions) a good high-gain antenna, and some patience behind the key... you can bring up stations all over the world inside your bounce.

Which is basically wherever your signal lands on the earth, then bounces back up again to the atmosphere, and back down again. Any time it makes a hit on the earth, you can communicate in that area (assuming some is there with equipment to respond with) until your signal decays beyond reception.

Anyway, had to stick up for the radio waves there... ;D

later...


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paradiselost

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Re: Radar Waves
« Reply #15 on: November 28, 2007, 02:40:48 AM »
Quote from: TheEngineer on November 27, 2007, 06:50:50 AM
Quote from: Yiak on November 27, 2007, 04:59:48 AM
Quote from: TheEngineer on November 26, 2007, 10:51:20 PM
The return from the ground messes with the operators and aircraft can't be picked out of this clutter very easily.
The return from the ocean?...
Yes.

But surely an all metal aircraft would look different from this 'clutter'? The article i was reading was about B-52 bombers, and they ain't small
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lambie

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Re: Radar Waves
« Reply #16 on: November 28, 2007, 06:10:54 AM »
Quote from: TheEngineer on November 27, 2007, 06:50:50 AM
Quote from: Yiak on November 27, 2007, 04:59:48 AM
Quote from: TheEngineer on November 26, 2007, 10:51:20 PM
The return from the ground messes with the operators and aircraft can't be picked out of this clutter very easily.
The return from the ocean?...
Yes.

absoultely spectacularly wrong
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TheEngineer

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Re: Radar Waves
« Reply #17 on: November 28, 2007, 07:41:44 AM »
Wow, that is an amazing argument.
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lambie

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Re: Radar Waves
« Reply #18 on: November 28, 2007, 07:59:36 AM »
Quote from: TheEngineer on November 28, 2007, 07:41:44 AM
Wow, that is an amazing argument.
I'm sorry but what was your argument based on, pull that one out of your arse did you?
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paradiselost

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Re: Radar Waves
« Reply #19 on: November 28, 2007, 03:55:19 PM »
Yes engy, can you please explain in a bit more detail the clutter which would be derived from the ocean? And how it would fool a trained radar operator?

EDIT: fixed typo
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Loard Z

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Re: Radar Waves
« Reply #20 on: November 28, 2007, 04:04:50 PM »
Quote from: Optimus Prime on November 27, 2007, 01:53:55 PM
Ah well I can't help myself... actually you CAN send a radio signal to the other side of the world.
Whether your viewpoint is that the earth is Flat or Spherical, Anyone with a 10 or 15meter rig, about 100watts (heck 50 will do it in perfect conditions) a good high-gain antenna, and some patience behind the key... you can bring up stations all over the world inside your bounce.

Which is basically wherever your signal lands on the earth, then bounces back up again to the atmosphere, and back down again. Any time it makes a hit on the earth, you can communicate in that area (assuming some is there with equipment to respond with) until your signal decays beyond reception.

Anyway, had to stick up for the radio waves there... ;D

later...




Agreed. Refraction of radio waves is massive. One could possibly construct an argument about radio waves vs light waves in favour of RE. That's possibly a new debate topic.
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paradiselost

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Re: Radar Waves
« Reply #21 on: November 28, 2007, 10:47:32 PM »
Still waiting for a reply from engy how a trained radar operator would get surface clutter mixed up  with a big metal aircraft
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Loard Z

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Re: Radar Waves
« Reply #22 on: November 28, 2007, 10:52:11 PM »
engy didn't say that, surely?
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Quote from: eric bloedow on January 08, 2008, 04:03:12 PM
if i remember, austria is an old, dis-used name for what is now Germany.
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paradiselost

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Re: Radar Waves
« Reply #23 on: November 28, 2007, 10:53:07 PM »
Quote from: TheEngineer on November 26, 2007, 10:51:20 PM
The return from the ground messes with the operators and aircraft can't be picked out of this clutter very easily.

Black and White
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Loard Z

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Re: Radar Waves
« Reply #24 on: November 28, 2007, 11:01:19 PM »
I don't remember much about RADAR. I know it's an acrononym. But not what it stands for.
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Quote from: eric bloedow on January 08, 2008, 04:03:12 PM
if i remember, austria is an old, dis-used name for what is now Germany.
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TheEngineer

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Re: Radar Waves
« Reply #25 on: November 28, 2007, 11:30:14 PM »
Quote from: paradiselost on November 28, 2007, 10:47:32 PM
Still waiting for a reply from engy how a trained radar operator would get surface clutter mixed up  with a big metal aircraft
I don't know what you think is displayed to a radar operator.  It surely is not a big outline of an aircraft.
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Re: Radar Waves
« Reply #26 on: November 29, 2007, 05:45:45 AM »
Quote from: eric bloedow on November 27, 2007, 06:59:07 AM
hm...i've heard of people hearing radio broadcasts from very far away for short times. the explanation i heard was that the radio waves were bouncing off the inside of earth's magnetic field.

and the ocean can confuse radar on windy days when there are lots of WAVES. but on a calm day...no.

The radio singlas bounce off one of the layers in the atmosphere I think, of course there is no such layer in FE.
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there is no optical light, there is just light and theres no other type of light unless you start talkling about energy saving lightbulbs compared to other types of light bulbs
ENaG: Evidence Not a Guarantee.
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Username

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Re: Radar Waves
« Reply #27 on: November 29, 2007, 06:06:31 AM »
Quote from: Archbishop Bishop on November 29, 2007, 05:45:45 AM
Quote from: eric bloedow on November 27, 2007, 06:59:07 AM
hm...i've heard of people hearing radio broadcasts from very far away for short times. the explanation i heard was that the radio waves were bouncing off the inside of earth's magnetic field.

and the ocean can confuse radar on windy days when there are lots of WAVES. but on a calm day...no.

The radio singlas bounce off one of the layers in the atmosphere I think, of course there is no such layer in FE.
Why is there no such layer in FE?
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Re: Radar Waves
« Reply #28 on: November 29, 2007, 01:37:40 PM »
Because TB has not said, therefore it cannot be so.
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Quote from: Tomcooper84
there is no optical light, there is just light and theres no other type of light unless you start talkling about energy saving lightbulbs compared to other types of light bulbs
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paradiselost

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Re: Radar Waves
« Reply #29 on: November 29, 2007, 08:12:04 PM »
Quote from: TheEngineer on November 28, 2007, 11:30:14 PM
Quote from: paradiselost on November 28, 2007, 10:47:32 PM
Still waiting for a reply from engy how a trained radar operator would get surface clutter mixed up  with a big metal aircraft
I don't know what you think is displayed to a radar operator.  It surely is not a big outline of an aircraft.

Yes, but SURELY to a trained operator it looks different from 'surface clutter'. I know you might not be smart enough to see the difference, but someone would be able to.
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