observations and explanations

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eric bloedow

observations and explanations
« on: November 24, 2007, 06:29:49 PM »
I am going to attempt to summarize what i have heard so far:

observation: sunrise and sunset

RE explanation: the earth rotates, so the sun appears to pass behind the earth.
FE explanation: the sun somehow* moves in a big circle above the earth, and something* makes it appear to go lower than it's normal height.

observation: shadows in different places are very different at the same time

RE explanation: the curvature of the earth accounts for this.
FE explanation: the sun is small and close. (supposedly 3000 miles, but this figure is never explained, or the size either)

observation: phases of the moon

RE explanation: the moon moves around the earth, so the sun illuminates different parts of it at different times.
FE explanation: the moon somehow* makes it's own light

observation: solar eclipse

RE explanation: the moon passes in front of the sun, blocking it's light.
FE explanation: mysterious* "shadow object" passes in front of sun. (but has never been observed directly)

observation: lunar eclipse

RE explanation: moon passes on opposite side of earth from sun, so the earth casts a shadow on the moon)
FE explanation: the shadow object again (which somehow* never blocks the light from ANY star)

observation: summer and winter

RE explanation: earth is tilted 23 degrees relative to the sun, so the amount of sunlight recieved north and south of the equator varies.
FE explanation: the sun's big circle of movement varies in size.

observation: month-long 'day' in antarctica every summer

RE explanation: the aforementioned tilt makes antactica angle toward the sun.
FE explanation: NONE! the aforementioned circle should only make days slightly longer!


*: these are COMPLETELY unexplained forces/phenomena, which NO scientist has ever HEARD of, and which FErs take entirely on faith!

so, which model holds together better? which is more coherent? which has fewer unknowns in it?
and that's just astronomical phenomena, not geographic!

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Tom Dipshit

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Re: observations and explanations
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2007, 06:55:54 PM »
Don't worry, Tom Bullshit will show up filling in those '*'
Tom Bishop: "The earth cuts the universe in half."

Narcberry (smarticus): "Oceans are free from gravity."

Z' Lord of Purple: "yes, superfast jet streams for the win!!!"

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Poloz

Re: observations and explanations
« Reply #2 on: November 25, 2007, 05:57:14 AM »
You forgot the ice crystals reflecting the sun for the poles  ;D
(or multiple suns... don't know if there's an official view on this)

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SparteX

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Re: observations and explanations
« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2007, 06:22:21 AM »
Don't worry, Tom Bullshit will show up filling in those '*'
Dude i can't take anything you say seriously without laughing at your avatar XD

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tommo

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Re: observations and explanations
« Reply #4 on: November 25, 2007, 06:23:41 AM »
add this:

observation: the creation of the earth.

RE: big bang theory .
FE: we don't know.
Quote from: jack
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SparteX

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Re: observations and explanations
« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2007, 06:25:58 AM »
I'd love to know how they know there is a dark energy field propelling earth and holding the atmosphere in, when dark energy is only theoretical to explain a certain percentage of the universe's mass.

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divito the truthist

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Re: observations and explanations
« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2007, 06:28:04 AM »
I'd love to know how they know there is a dark energy field propelling earth and holding the atmosphere in

It's an idea; just like the Big Bang, or Dark Energy, or Dark Matter in general.
Our existentialist, relativist, nihilist, determinist, fascist, eugenicist moderator hath returned.
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SparteX

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Re: observations and explanations
« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2007, 06:30:49 AM »
I'd love to know how they know there is a dark energy field propelling earth and holding the atmosphere in

It's an idea; just like the Big Bang, or Dark Energy, or Dark Matter in general.
I'm just going to totally mix up the equation now with the latest universal theory i came accross.

That, there was actually no big bang, only that the universe expands and contracts every few trillion years. Which greately out dates the current belief that the universe is only 30 billion years old or something.

Totally none related just thought i'd share it.

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: observations and explanations
« Reply #8 on: November 25, 2007, 07:17:50 AM »

observation: the creation of the earth.

RE: big bang theory .
FE: big bang theory.

You made a mistake here, but that's okay, I fixed it for you.  :)
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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tommo

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Re: observations and explanations
« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2007, 09:15:58 AM »
You made a mistake here, but that's okay, I fixed it for you.  :)
actually from my topic on the creation of FE i concluded :

Quote from: tommo
so basicly the RE has a theory to back up is claim of the world being round. and this theory (or so i believe) is basicly "the rotation of the Earth creates the equatorial bulge and spherical shape"

but FE dose not have a wildly accepted (between FE'ers let alone every one) to explain its shape.

and you agreed.

so eric bloedow add in the creation of the earth aswell.
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Tom Dipshit

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Re: observations and explanations
« Reply #10 on: November 25, 2007, 09:29:36 AM »
Don't worry, Tom Bullshit will show up filling in those '*'
Dude i can't take anything you say seriously without laughing at your avatar XD
You like it? Thank Lord Bishop or however he calls himself.
Tom Bishop: "The earth cuts the universe in half."

Narcberry (smarticus): "Oceans are free from gravity."

Z' Lord of Purple: "yes, superfast jet streams for the win!!!"

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SparteX

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Re: observations and explanations
« Reply #11 on: November 25, 2007, 10:32:04 AM »
Don't worry, Tom Bullshit will show up filling in those '*'
Dude i can't take anything you say seriously without laughing at your avatar XD
You like it? Thank Lord Bishop or however he calls himself.
i love it, it creases me XD

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Gabe

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Re: observations and explanations
« Reply #12 on: November 26, 2007, 09:21:54 AM »
add this:

observation: the creation of the earth.

RE: big bang theory .
FE: "Captain Planet and Pancake Batter" Theory
fixed
Quote from: Tom Bishop
There is no evidence for an infinite Earth.
Quote from: Tom Bishop
The Earth is infinite.
Warning, you have just lowered your IQ by reading my sig.

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Loard Z

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Re: observations and explanations
« Reply #13 on: November 26, 2007, 09:24:58 AM »
Don't worry, Tom Bullshit will show up filling in those '*'
Dude i can't take anything you say seriously without laughing at your avatar XD
You like it? Thank Lord Bishop or however he calls himself.

I think it's Archbishop Bishop right now.
if i remember, austria is an old, dis-used name for what is now Germany.
See My Greatness

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Dioptimus Drime

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Re: observations and explanations
« Reply #14 on: November 26, 2007, 12:27:51 PM »
I am going to attempt to summarize what i have heard so far:

observation: sunrise and sunset

RE explanation: the earth rotates, so the sun appears to pass behind the earth.
FE explanation: the sun somehow* moves in a big circle above the earth, and something* makes it appear to go lower than it's normal height.

RE: Perspective makes it look like the Sun goes down/up.
FE: Perspective makes it look like the Sun goes down/up.


Quote
observation: shadows in different places are very different at the same time

RE explanation: the curvature of the earth accounts for this.
FE explanation: the sun is small and close. (supposedly 3000 miles, but this figure is never explained, or the size either)

This is such an irrelevant observation. It's the same on both models.



Quote
(but has never been observed directly)

It's a shadow...


Quote
observation: summer and winter

RE explanation: earth is tilted 23 degrees relative to the sun, so the amount of sunlight recieved north and south of the equator varies.
FE explanation: the sun's big circle of movement varies in size.

Basically, the paths on both models are elliptical. Which is why we get a different amount of sunlight.  That was a toughy.



Why do you bother making yourself look like an idiot, trying to compare the models? You're just switching around words to make the round Earth seem simpler.

~D-Draw

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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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Re: observations and explanations
« Reply #15 on: November 26, 2007, 12:51:43 PM »
Perhaps this is a better comparison...  ;D
(credit goes to cpt_bthimes)

phenomenon

round earth

flat earth

sun

an ordinary star powered by fusion; earth and other planets orbit in a non-geocentric universe

a sphere or a disk, either way a "spotlight", 32 miles diameter, orbiting a common barycenter with moon; power for light unknown; mechanism keeping it aloft above surface of earth unknown

sunrise/set

earth rotation makes it visibly rise from and set below horizon without changing size, just as observed

sun shrinks into distance until it disappears, or some other undefined optical illusion; furthermore shrinking into distance is not consistent with observation

solar eclipse

moon passes in front of sun as predicted in advance by well-established orbital mechanics; only happens during new moon

undefined mystery object moves in front of sun; could happen during any moon phase; cannot be predicted by fe celestial mechanics

lunar eclipse

earth aligns between moon and sun as predicted in advance by orbital mechanics; only happens during full moon

undefined mystery object moves in front of moon; could happen during any moon phase; cannot be predicted by fe celestial mechanics

shape of earth

spherical, slightly oblate due to rotation, finite mass and gravity

variously flat or slightly curved; infinite plane or finite disk; finite mass, infinite mass, or massless; fe cannot agree on even the most basic, fundamental properties - even within the range of zero to infinity

shape of sun/moon/planets

spherical

can't agree on spherical or flat

other stars

similar to sun, of varying size and mass, scattered throughout the milky way in various non-random densities

tiny motes of chemical energy the size of dust grains, floating in a layer above the earth, all rotating a common barycenter in perfectly circular orbits, violating laws of physics as all motes at all radii from center make one orbit every 24 hours

other galaxies

similar to the galaxy in which we reside, the milky way; scattered throughout the known universe; formations of stars, gas, and dust; having various sizes, shapes, and aggregate masses; complies with observational evidence

tiny swirling light shows, floating in a layer above the earth, all rotating a common barycenter in perfectly circular orbits along with the dust motes of stars, violating laws of physics as all swirling light shows at all radii from center make one orbit every 24 hours

formation of earth and solar system

condensed out of gas and dust, orbits and rotations preserving original overall angular momentum

unknown, maybe god

sinking ship effect

through high magnification, the tops of sails of sailboats appear below surface of even calm water (e.g. toronto pics); due to curvature of earth, partially compensated for by terrestrial refraction

trick of perspective because the sails are white and ships are dark and disappear against water, even though actual modern sailboats are mostly white and stand out against dark sea more than white sails against a light sky

clouds lit by sun from bottom at sunset

at sunset the clouds are angled slightly away from sun due to curvature of earth, furthermore crystal-clear evidence that the sun gets "below" the level of clouds as it sets

unexplained

satellites visible to naked eye crossing the sky at certain times on clear moonless nights

there are man-made satellites in orbiting around the earth; they reflect light from the sun when it is well below observer's horizon, during a range of time between dark, and before the satellites fall behind earth's shadow; usually dim (depending on satellite) but easily visible in motion against background stars with the naked eye

satellites don't exist (contrary to easy naked-eye observation), or they are pseudolites (by current definition ground-based), or the stratellite, requireing sheer conjecture and blind, evidence-free acceptance of conspiracy theory, as the stratellite manufactururer publicly states they are not yet operationaland there is only conjecture to the contrary; either way, the mechanism for which flying psuedolites / stratellites are lit from below is undefined

north celestial pole, every object beyond solar system completes one orbit in one day

an easy-to understand artifact of earth's orbit; requires nothing extra to explain, and no magical physics that every object in the observable universe must obey

a star cluster of tiny chemical dust motes; every one of millions of objects having a perfectly circular orbit in gross defiance of odds; violation of known orbital physics[/red], farthest star completes orbit as fast as nearest, even though nothing else in observable universe behaves this way[/red]

south celestial pole

same as north, but in southern hemisphere; like the north, it's relative location in the sky is the same, at any time, any month, any place in southern hemisphere

like north, also star cluster of tiny chemical motes; location in sky unknown or undefined; different places in sky according to time of night and/or month and/or location

why do we see the same face of the moon

like every major moon in our solar system (and mercury with the sun), our moon is tidally locked with its orbited planet; like the other moons, "locked" is a slight misnomer as there is a slight wobble throughout the course of a lunar month

unexplained; bishop once tried to pass off an animated gif showing lunar libration (month-long wobble) as "this is what it looks like when it passes overhead" (in one night); explained with lies

moon phases

unlit side of the moon as we see (the shadow) from 360 degrees, one night at a time, throughout the moon's orbit of earth

moon is either self-luminous, or lit from the reflection of the sun off of various places of earth; while somehow not changing "phase" over the course of a night; all fe explanations rely on relative positions which in their model change over the course of 24 hours, not 28 days, thus unable to explain moon phase changes consistent from all locations on earth, that take a 28.x day cycle to complete

moon stays the same size as it crosses the sky

basic orbital mechanics predicts this

unexplained

rotation of hurricanes depending on hemisphere

corilois effect as result of a rotating round earth

unexplained or undefined celestial eddies influence

things experimentally weigh less high on mountains

slightly smaller effect of gravitational attraction farther from the majority of earth's mass

chemical dust motes in sky pull in other direction

shape and size of earth determined regularly by global earthquake monitoring stations, and man-made seismic experiment

delays in and directions of primary readings, as well as secondary reflections and refractions, are consistent with a round earth

undefined

nasa photos

hundreds of thousands, if no millions of photos from hundreds of missions, with not a single one demonstrating something other than a consistent picture of round earth orbital mechanics

every single one was faked, including those published in the '60s which were computer-generated or altered (presumably with "vacuum tube photoshop")

strange wanderings of planets over weeks, months, and years

round-earth orbital mechanics, of which earth is part of, worked this out hundreds of years ago, and with highly predictable precision decades ago

unexplained

seasons

easily explained with the tilt of earths axis and it's effect as the earth orbits the sun

spiraling in and back out of sun and moon around a common barycenter, via unexplained physics

tides

gravitational effect readily predictable based on location of sun and moon relative to earth, and earth's rotation

sloshing of the earth back and forth; unpredictable

midnight sun in antactic circle

same explanation as perpetual night/day in antarctic - tilt of earth's axis relative to position in orbit

doesn't exist; all photos and accounts are lies or optical illusions

http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=17816.0
If I was asked to imagine a perfect deity, I would never invent one that suffers from a multiple personality disorder. Christians get points for originality there.

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Conspiracy Mastermind

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Re: observations and explanations
« Reply #16 on: November 27, 2007, 05:29:44 AM »
Summed up perfectly, L0gic. Of course, the Earth is still flat. Occams Razor states that "When neither of two theories can be sufficiently proved, the Earth is flat"
Also, Einstein said "By using my equivilance principle, the Earth is flat!"
Newton: "I made up Gravity. The Earth is flat!"

These quotes prove everything! You can't use evidence to prove/disprove FE!
Quote from: Tomcooper84
there is no optical light, there is just light and theres no other type of light unless you start talkling about energy saving lightbulbs compared to other types of light bulbs
ENaG: Evidence Not a Guarantee.

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eric bloedow

Re: observations and explanations
« Reply #17 on: November 27, 2007, 08:31:36 PM »
sure, some FE explanations make sense on their own; but when you try to put them together, it's an incoherent mess!

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Loard Z

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Re: observations and explanations
« Reply #18 on: November 27, 2007, 08:38:01 PM »
Summed up perfectly, L0gic. Of course, the Earth is still flat. Occams Razor states that "When neither of two theories can be sufficiently proved, the Earth is flat"
Also, Einstein said "By using my equivilance principle, the Earth is flat!"
Newton: "I made up Gravity. The Earth is flat!"

These quotes prove everything! You can't use evidence to prove/disprove FE!

Plus, there is still no firsthand experimental evidence that proves the earth is round, that can't be defeated by a theory one of us can make up to disprove it.
if i remember, austria is an old, dis-used name for what is now Germany.
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Optimus Prime

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Re: observations and explanations
« Reply #19 on: November 27, 2007, 08:52:46 PM »
Plus, there is still no firsthand experimental evidence that proves the earth is round, that can't be defeated by a theory one of us can make up to disprove it.

Yeah there is, just nobody will do it. Foam Cylinder, two leather needles and some fishing line. Done and Done. ;D

Unfortunately the known distances (that can be traveld around to by yourself on foot or in your car) on our planet don't work on a flat earth. Take two known spots on the map, scale it down to your cylinder (sphere is even better, cylinder is easier and is close enough for mid regions) sitck in your needles, tie the fishing line across tight, and cut the back out of your cylinder and lay it out flat.

Do it in reverse if you like. Either way the line will either droop or tighten respectively.


Dyslexics are teople poo!

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Loard Z

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Re: observations and explanations
« Reply #20 on: November 27, 2007, 09:17:59 PM »
Plus, there is still no firsthand experimental evidence that proves the earth is round, that can't be defeated by a theory one of us can make up to disprove it.

Yeah there is, just nobody will do it. Foam Cylinder, two leather needles and some fishing line. Done and Done. ;D

Unfortunately the known distances (that can be traveld around to by yourself on foot or in your car) on our planet don't work on a flat earth. Take two known spots on the map, scale it down to your cylinder (sphere is even better, cylinder is easier and is close enough for mid regions) sitck in your needles, tie the fishing line across tight, and cut the back out of your cylinder and lay it out flat.

Do it in reverse if you like. Either way the line will either droop or tighten respectively.




Either way, that isn't experimental evidence
if i remember, austria is an old, dis-used name for what is now Germany.
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Optimus Prime

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Re: observations and explanations
« Reply #21 on: November 27, 2007, 09:34:20 PM »
What part of experiment do you not understand? lol

It's a perfectly simple and easy to perform experiment that anyone can do on a lazy afternoon for about 10 bucks (well aside from fuel costs true).

Too funny
Dyslexics are teople poo!

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eric bloedow

Re: observations and explanations
« Reply #22 on: November 28, 2007, 08:02:37 AM »
the most common world map is what's called a "mercator projection".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Usgs_map_mercator.svg

this "projects" the globe onto a CYLINDER, then "unrolls" the cylinder into a flat map. it's fairly accurate near the equator, but near the north or south pole it becomes very distorted.

check the other threads, "great circle route" and "distortions in southern hemisphere" for more discussion on this point, including pictures!

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Loard Z

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Re: observations and explanations
« Reply #23 on: November 28, 2007, 09:04:24 PM »
What part of experiment do you not understand? lol

It's a perfectly simple and easy to perform experiment that anyone can do on a lazy afternoon for about 10 bucks (well aside from fuel costs true).

Too funny


i understand that if i dont do it, it can't prove me wrong.
if i remember, austria is an old, dis-used name for what is now Germany.
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Optimus Prime

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Re: observations and explanations
« Reply #24 on: November 28, 2007, 09:12:29 PM »
i understand that if i dont do it, it can't prove me wrong.

Touché... nice.

Dyslexics are teople poo!

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Spec138

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Re: observations and explanations
« Reply #25 on: November 29, 2007, 01:08:26 AM »
i understand that if i dont do it, it can't prove me wrong.

Touché... nice.



There's no way that experiment would work man, the stars strech the string duhhhh :P

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Conspiracy Mastermind

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Re: observations and explanations
« Reply #26 on: November 29, 2007, 05:44:26 AM »
NO, you mean HYPOTHESIS, not theory. Anyone can make up a hypothesis, but it is only a theory when it is proved.
"The earth is a cube"
By your definition: Theory
By the real definition: Hypothesis.
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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: observations and explanations
« Reply #27 on: November 30, 2007, 02:28:51 AM »
You made a mistake here, but that's okay, I fixed it for you.  :)
actually from my topic on the creation of FE i concluded :

Quote from: tommo
so basicly the RE has a theory to back up is claim of the world being round. and this theory (or so i believe) is basicly "the rotation of the Earth creates the equatorial bulge and spherical shape"

but FE dose not have a wildly accepted (between FE'ers let alone every one) to explain its shape.

and you agreed.

so eric bloedow add in the creation of the earth aswell.

You weren't talking about the earth's shape, you were talking about its creation (and in actuality, it was the origin of the universe you were describing, as the creation of the earth itself didn't occur until billions of years after the Big Bang).  There's no reason why Flat Earth Theory shouldn't be compatible with Big Bang Theory.  In fact, in the quote above you don't even bring Big Bang Theory into the argument, you just say the shape is caused by the rotation of the earth.

Point being, maybe you didn't really get the point you intended across.  That's OK, we all make mistakes.  :)
« Last Edit: November 30, 2007, 02:36:52 AM by Thus Spake Roundy »
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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tommo

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Re: observations and explanations
« Reply #28 on: November 30, 2007, 05:03:24 AM »
Quote from: Thus Spake Roundy link=topic=18204.msg325887#msg325887
You weren't talking about the earth's shape, you were talking about its creation (and in actuality, it was the origin of the universe you were describing, as the creation of the earth itself didn't occur until billions of years after the Big Bang).

i was talking about the earth's shape, being directly related to the big bang theory in that the big bang theory explains the earth's shape.

so maybe u didn't understand me . but hey, we all make mistakes
Quote from: jack
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eric bloedow

Re: observations and explanations
« Reply #29 on: November 30, 2007, 08:31:17 AM »
oh, i've heard several theories about how the planets would have formed. and ALL of them say the earth should be round, exactly like mercury, venus and mars!