No flightpaths are straight

Quote from: ChiefConspirator on October 25, 2007, 10:48:03 AM

I think the important idea is that, on a flat earth, flying "east", or more accurately, always flying 90 degrees clockwise of north, would require a continous slight bank. If a plane flew straight and level "east" for a period of time, the compass would steadily read more south.

So? If you were on the top of a Round Earth, twenty feet away from the point of magnetic north, your compass would also steadily read more south if you pointed yourself in an easterly direction and walked in a straight and level path for a period of time without correction.

If you were 20 feet away from magnetic north, you would not be on top of R.E.



pwnd
edit: in fact, the fact that the earth has a magnetic north single handedly destroys FE theory in itself. Because all magnetic fields have 2 poles, and on a flat earth this is impossible.
Explain, Tom?

and on a flat earth this is impossible.

Since when?

In order for jet streams to account for this, pilots would have to be completely unaware that they're traveling significantly faster. Maybe a jet stream would fool a air speed indicator, but it wouldn't fool GPS. But assuming that you'll tell me that GPS is part of the conspiracy, wouldn't ground based radar disagree with aircraft speeds? Any way you cut it, when all is accounted for there would be noticeable discrepancies between the distances that aircraft are ACTUALLY traveling and what is reported on a RE based map.

Are you still holding to the idea that, over time, pilots, radar operators, navigators and the like wouldn't notice significant discrepancies between DISTANCES reported on a RE map and real air travel in the southern hemisphere?

In the Southern Hemisphere there are both eastward and westward jet streams.

I'm still waiting for the source.

In the horizontal, the dominant balance outside of the tropics is between the Coriolis effect and the pressure gradient is a balance referred to as geostrophic.

Still waiting for how you account for the Coriolis effect on a flat earth.

Quote from: Z-To-Impress on October 25, 2007, 11:05:00 AM

and on a flat earth this is impossible.

Since when?

please explain to me how a magnetic field works on a flat earth then, because I must be missing something.

please explain to me how a magnetic field works on a flat earth then, because I must be missing something.

When addressing the magnetic poles, I offered theorized monopoles as an idea.

Gulliver explained it like this:

"Think of the FE as a empty spool of thread. The NP sits over the top spindle hole; the SP over the bottom spindle pole. The line travel between the poles over the surface of the spool, radiating equal and having equal strength at every "latitude"."

Quote from: Z-To-Impress on October 25, 2007, 11:16:42 AM

please explain to me how a magnetic field works on a flat earth then, because I must be missing something.

When addressing the magnetic poles, I offered theorized monopoles as an idea.

Gulliver explained it like this:

"Think of the FE as a empty spool of thread. The NP sits over the top spindle hole; the SP over the bottom spindle pole. The line travel between the poles over the surface of the spool, radiating equal and having equal strength at every "latitude"."

So, the south pole is on the bottom of the disk?

So, the south pole is on the bottom of the disk?

That's one possibility, yes.

If you were 20 feet away from magnetic north, you would not be on top of R.E.

There is no top or bottom to the RE. The directions of up and down in RE are entirely superficial.

edit: in fact, the fact that the earth has a magnetic north single handedly destroys FE theory in itself. Because all magnetic fields have 2 poles, and on a flat earth this is impossible.
Explain, Tom?

In FE, the South Pole is right beneath the North Pole. The magnetic field lines swoop over the earth and become vertical at the Ice Wall.

Are you still holding to the idea that, over time, pilots, radar operators, navigators and the like wouldn't notice significant discrepancies between DISTANCES reported on a RE map and real air travel in the southern hemisphere?

The problem is that the maps you will find of FE are not set in stone. They are simply azimuthal projections of the RE Globe. They are hypotheses and nothing more. Dr. Samuel Birley Rowbotham was only able to accurately map one eighth  of the earth's surface before his death. There is no verification that Australia is where it is located on the FE map, for example.

Therefore, before distances are compared between models, an accurate map would need to be created.

Still waiting for how you account for the Coriolis effect on a flat earth.

In Flat Earth Theory the two turnings of the winds between hemispheres create atmospheric "gears" with the teeth of these gears laying along the equator. The turning of the "gears" keep each other generally moving in opposite directions. Not literal gears, but ones consisting of wind currents rotating around a common barycenter. When two wind currents moving in opposite directions collide at the equator it creates a reaction in accordance with Newtons third law: For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. The molecules of the air are shot outwards and away with a direction and magnitude directly opposite.

What sits over the equator to make this such a special area? The sun - which constantly imparts temperatures to the two hemispheres, rising pressure directly under its umbrella with its heat, gradually moving the winds within its circling spotlight outwards and away from the high pressures of the day out towards the low pressures of the night. It is analogous to a spoon churning liquid in a vast mixing bowl. This effect builds up over time, creating predictable and recurring patterns of wind currents.

But this effect is not universal; there are still wind currents which wander into opposing hemispheres, violating the principles of the Coriolis Effect.

In the Southern Hemisphere there are both eastward and westward jet streams.

Please give me your source, Tom.

The problem is that the maps you will find of FE are not set in stone. They are simply azimuthal projections of the RE Globe. They are hypotheses and nothing more. Dr. Samuel Birley Rowbotham was only able to accurately map one eighth  of the earth's surface before his death. There is no verification that Australia is where it is located on the FE map, for example.

So by evading a response to the point I'm making, what you're saying is that it is possible for a FE modeled map to more or less match a RE modeled map.

The point I'm getting at is conceptual, not informational. I understand that the FE world hasn't been mapped by cartographers fully. So I concede that FE doesn't have the information base to offer evidence accounting for map discrepancies and such. But this can be discussed conceptually.

The fact of the matter is this: we have two established information sources. A) The body of cartographic information based on a round earth, and B) the experiences and real life interaction that human beings have with the earth (i.e. air travel, ground travel, sea travel, surveying, cartography, GIS, etc.). One doesn't need to have established exact maps of the FE to see that on some level in some part of the southern hemishere, things won't match up.

Quote from: Tom Bishop on October 24, 2007, 05:58:01 PM

In the Southern Hemisphere there are both eastward and westward jet streams.

Please give me your source, Tom.

I'm starting to get disillusioned, Tom. I can see you're posting elsewhere in the forum. Why are you ignoring me? Give me your source for making that statement.

"The major jet streams are westerly winds (flowing west to east) in both the Northern Hemisphere and the Southern Hemisphere, although in the summer, easterly jets can form in tropical regions."

"The location of the jet stream is extremely important for airlines. In the United States and Canada, for example, the time needed to fly east across the continent can be decreased by about 30 minutes if an airplane can fly with the jet stream, or increased by more than that amount if it must fly west against it. On longer intercontinental flights, the difference is even greater, it is faster and cheaper (by flying the pressure pattern) or flying eastbound along with the jet stream and flying around the jet stream going west bound, than taking the shorter great circle route between two points."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jet_stream

Come on. First off, why are you doing Tom's dirty work?

But alright. I'm sure you're intelligent enough to know what I'm getting at. Please give me a source that says that there are easterly jets in the southern hemisphere. And give me a break here. You KNOW what I'm getting at.

Come on. First off, why are you doing Tom's dirty work?

I just happened to look at the page and voila.

Please give me a source that says that there are easterly jets in the southern hemisphere.

"The major jet streams are westerly winds (flowing west to east) in both the Northern Hemisphere and the Southern Hemisphere, although in the summer, easterly jets can form in tropical regions."

"The major jet streams are westerly winds (flowing west to east) in both the Northern Hemisphere and the Southern Hemisphere, although in the summer, easterly jets can form in tropical regions."

Yes, I can read.

Unfortunately, that's not what Tom said. Please refer to his statements earlier in this thread before taking up his fight. I don't want Tom to think he doesn't have to respond to what we were talking about earlier in this thread just because you want to play devil's advocate.

Quote from: ChiefConspirator on October 24, 2007, 03:58:25 PM

What I'm really getting at is, wouldn't pilots have to be in on the conspiracy, since they would have to use the correct FE maps in order to account for the flight time and positions of distant airports?

Nope. Pilots find distant airports airports and plan flights based on lines of latitude and longitude. While the maps may be based on RE, those same coordinates take the pilot to the same destination.

Hmmmmmm. That's very interesting Tom. But then you go on to say:

The problem is that the maps you will find of FE are not set in stone. They are simply azimuthal projections of the RE Globe. They are hypotheses and nothing more. Dr. Samuel Birley Rowbotham was only able to accurately map one eighth  of the earth's surface before his death. There is no verification that Australia is where it is located on the FE map, for example.

"There is no verification that Australia is where it is located on the FE map," except, of course, for the fact that airplanes fly there every day, guided solely, as you claim, to latitudinal and longitudinal coordinates. It seems that if airplanes are finding their way to Australia and Chile, then that pretty much cements that part of the FE map in stone, doesn't it? I mean, am I wrong about that, Tom?

Care to weigh in on this, Engineer? You're the pilot in here, right? Ever captained a flight in the southern hemisphere?

"There is no verification that Australia is where it is located on the FE map," except, of course, for the fact that airplanes fly there every day, guided solely, as you claim, to latitudinal and longitudinal coordinates. It seems that if airplanes are finding their way to Australia and Chile, then that pretty much cements that part of the FE map in stone, doesn't it? I mean, am I wrong about that, Tom?

Pilots can fly there, doesn't mean anything about its location on the FE map. Again, the "FE map" is merely a polarization that showcases the concept of a flat Earth. It is not to scale, nor is it an exact representation of what the flat Earth would be.

Quote from: ChiefConspirator on October 26, 2007, 12:57:12 AM

"There is no verification that Australia is where it is located on the FE map," except, of course, for the fact that airplanes fly there every day, guided solely, as you claim, to latitudinal and longitudinal coordinates. It seems that if airplanes are finding their way to Australia and Chile, then that pretty much cements that part of the FE map in stone, doesn't it? I mean, am I wrong about that, Tom?

Pilots can fly there, doesn't mean anything about its location on the FE map. Again, the "FE map" is merely a polarization that showcases the concept of a flat Earth. It is not to scale, nor is it an exact representation of what the flat Earth would be.

But what I'm saying is that, yes it HAS to be an exact representation. Or more accurately, only taking into account the observations of pilots, the locations of at least airports HAVE to be exactly where they are represented to be. Otherwise, latitudinal and longitudinal coordinates would mean nothing. And if they mean nothing, then a compass would essentially be useless in the southern hemisphere for the purposes of navigation. And if THAT's the case, how do airplanes navigate to distant airports in the southern hemisphere?

But what I'm saying is that, yes it HAS to be an exact representation. Or more accurately, only taking into account the observations of pilots, the locations of at least airports HAVE to be exactly where they are represented to be. Otherwise, latitudinal and longitudinal coordinates would mean nothing. And if they mean nothing, then a compass would essentially be useless in the southern hemisphere for the purposes of navigation. And if THAT's the case, how do airplanes navigate to distant airports in the southern hemisphere?

There is no reason to believe that the airports are anywhere different than where they are claimed to be. After all, pilots do reach their destinations.

Ok, I can't figure out whether you're agreeing with me or disagreeing anymore. Are you saying my statement has a hole in it somewhere?

the locations of at least airports HAVE to be exactly where they are represented to be.

This is the statement I agree with, within reason.

Quote from: ChiefConspirator on October 26, 2007, 11:51:47 AM

the locations of at least airports HAVE to be exactly where they are represented to be.

This is the statement I agree with, within reason.

All right, well there are a lot of airports in the southern hemisphere. If you're suggesting that the airports are definitely at matching lat/lon points on both the FE and RE map, then the only thing that could be different is the land and water in between them.

The point I'm trying to make, is that the people who interact with RE based maps of the southern hemisphere would eventually uncover the discrepancies between them and the actual layout of the land and water. I don't think any conspiracy could silence a whole hemisphere of false cartography.

And THIS is the point I was debating with Tom Bishop. He accounted for all this with jet streams. That's it. Jet streams account for all RE based map discrepancies in the southern hemisphere, as it relates to flight. And I was just trying to point out that could only work for westward travel, because eastward jet streams don't form south of the tropics. Even IN the tropics, they only SOMETIMES form, and only in the summer.

So I'm still waiting, Tom Bishop. Please take responsibility for your statements.

You're the pilot in here, right?

Yes.

Ever captained a flight in the southern hemisphere?

No.

Quote from: divito the fascist on October 25, 2007, 11:14:27 AM

Quote from: Z-To-Impress on October 25, 2007, 11:05:00 AM

and on a flat earth this is impossible.

Since when?

please explain to me how a magnetic field works on a flat earth then, because I must be missing something.

I put it in the FAQ.

Quote from: ChiefConspirator on October 26, 2007, 11:22:07 AM

You're the pilot in here, right?

Yes.

Quote

Ever captained a flight in the southern hemisphere?

No.

Jeez, how anti climactic. I was hoping for a little more of a response. Would you care explain why I'm wrong? How would you account for the constant successful use of false cartography in the southern hemisphere?

Tom, what would Samuel Rowbotham think, knowing you're giving up his struggle to spread the truth? You're letting him down, Tom. Way down. Why are you letting a little punk like me spread these horrible lies about a major failure in Prof. Rowbotham's teachings? Why are you ignoring me?

How would you account for the constant successful use of false cartography in the southern hemisphere?

The lack of travel in the southern hemisphere.

Tom Watch: Day 5:

Dear diary,

The air has turned cold as ice, and I can almost see the vapor from my breath crystallize in mid air before traveling but a few inches. I have almost lost track of the days. What was it Tom said last? I can barely remember.

Reports have come in from neighboring threads, and, troubling as they are, I can scarcely believe them. Other's have claimed to have seen Tom, describing him as being in jovial spirits, visiting other threads, much as has come to be expected of him. My response to each of these reports is the same; I scream into the air that it isn't true, it can't be true, but deep in my heart I must admit that it is. The most hurtful element of these sightings is the irrefutable evidence showing his willingness (neigh, his eagerness) to not merely view, by to post on other threads. The number of such posts is so astronomical, my heart is all but crushed by its magnitude. By the most accurate count, he has posted no less than 45 times since I, in my utter desperation, have requested his most valuable attention to this most momentous of matters. It is quiet undeniable that he is aware of my repeated requests. Some say he his heart is filled with fear. This thought overcomes me. It is too much.

The nebulous walls that make up this thread grow weaker; I know not how long they will last. However, my path is clear. I will wait for the coming of the bearer of truth. I must remember, my plight is unimportant. I must be strong. I WILL be strong.

Though I am loath to admit it, in my weakness, sometimes I doubt if he has the strength to come. I know this cannot true, but I can not help but wonder. Please do not forsake me, Tom Bishop. I beg you.

You're asking for data which is quite simply unavailable: an accurate map of the earth. No single person has ever explored every square inch of the earth and verified locations and distances between each and every point. Pilots travel on known routes only.

Current maps are just an amalgamation of cartography which may or may not  be accurate. This is a very basic concept in geography and map making.

If you are interested I'd suggest the book How Maps Lie.