Soviet Drilling Team Confirms Existence of Hell

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Re: Soviet Drilling Team Confirms Existence of Hell
« Reply #30 on: October 20, 2007, 06:49:02 PM »
And just to let you know, I'm the one that's going to win this argument.

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Dionysios

Re: Soviet Drilling Team Confirms Existence of Hell
« Reply #31 on: October 20, 2007, 06:57:00 PM »
Quote from: Trekky0623
Before they "discovered" hell, the news would have gotten out.  It took the other drilling team 20 years.  So these people would have had to start in at least 1987.  Which means that by the late 1990s/early 2000s, the news would have definately gotten out before they supposedly heard "hell".
If you had done your research you would know that this controversy is an old one as the height of the controversy over this subject occurred during the very early 1990's as the news did get out.  Otherwise no controversy over it at that time would have occurred.

So much for your 20 years to get the news out theory.  Nice try though.

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divito the truthist

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Re: Soviet Drilling Team Confirms Existence of Hell
« Reply #32 on: October 20, 2007, 07:06:31 PM »
I don't think anyone here is stupid enough to classify the story as impossible. But based on the evidence and information at hand, it seems that it's more probabilistically a hoax. Thus, people don't believe it.
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BOGWarrior89

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Re: Soviet Drilling Team Confirms Existence of Hell
« Reply #33 on: October 20, 2007, 07:58:42 PM »
Quote from: BOGWarrior89

[url=http://www.damninteresting.com/?p=567]
[url=http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/d/drillingtohell.htm]
[url=http://www.dongs.com/]

I discount the article not because of the established and agreed upon "truth" I gave above, but because it doesn't make much logical sense, drilling to Hell.  If you want, I can give my reasoning on the subject.
First, I thank you for your honesty in admitting that you do not believe it not so much because of all the articles you have quoted but rather really because it does not make much sense to you.  As to your reasoning I am not to be honest keenly interested, but I am not against you stating the reasons.  I would read it.

Second, I thank you for the links above.  What does not make sense to me is all the armchair incredibility in the minds of all you disbelievers concerning a kilometre or so of drilling.  And I'm thinking that most of you guys would usually be the kind to vouch for the wonders of modern technology way before I did (if I did not go in the opposite direction by enumerating the disadvantages of it, generally speaking).  Perhaps you should state your reasoning after all so can can at least get a better idea of what the hangups are in you guys' minds.  At any rate, I think all the squawking over 12 or 13 km holes are the deepest ever drilled as opposed to a 14 km hole is beside the point as the real reason most of you do not believe the story is because you do not believe in Hell reguardless of whatever facts or proofs are presented to you.

Well, I have two main reasons for not believing it:

1)  If we can get in, they can get out.
2)  To be dead and still be "alive" on the Earth doesn't make much sense.  It's like respawning in a video game—you can go visit your body.

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Re: Soviet Drilling Team Confirms Existence of Hell
« Reply #34 on: October 21, 2007, 12:20:25 AM »
I don't think anyone here is stupid enough to classify the story as impossible. But based on the evidence and information at hand, it seems that it's more probabilistically a hoax. Thus, people don't believe it.

So, you're saying the people here are smart enough to classify the story as possible?

There are things in this world that don't even require evidence to disprove them. We have something known as common sense and logic. When things are impossible, they are impossible. People classifying impossible things as impossible doesn't mean they are stupid. Would you believe Messiah be coming from the sky tomorrow?
« Last Edit: October 21, 2007, 03:45:37 AM by Jack. »

Re: Soviet Drilling Team Confirms Existence of Hell
« Reply #35 on: October 21, 2007, 01:32:49 AM »
Quote from: divito the fascist
I don't think anyone here is stupid enough to classify the story as impossible. But based on the evidence and information at hand, it seems that it's more probabilistically a hoax. Thus, people don't believe it.
I can agree to disagree as to the conclusion taken from the available evidence, but I respect this post.  Until something more definitive is revealed through either research or making itself known, perhaps this is as close as we will come to agreement.

  I have the same thoughts towards Bog Warrior's reasons which he posted which I might post a comment on, but the conversation would likely turn to the spirit world in general as opposed to merely the Soviet drilling incident.

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BOGWarrior89

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Re: Soviet Drilling Team Confirms Existence of Hell
« Reply #36 on: October 21, 2007, 03:03:35 AM »
I don't think anyone here is stupid enough to classify the story as impossible. But based on the evidence and information at hand, it seems that it's more probabilistically a hoax. Thus, people don't believe it.

So, you're saying the people here are smart enough to classify the story as possible? It's alright **pats**.

Well, you know what? There are things in this world that don't even require evidence to disprove them. Why? We have something known as common sense and logic. When things are impossible, they are impossible. People classifying impossible things as impossible doesn't mean they are stupid. Would you believe Messiah be coming from the sky tomorrow?

Nothing is impossible.  Learn the biases of your being an observer.

I have the same thoughts towards BOGWarrior's reasons which he posted which I might post a comment on, but the conversation would likely turn to the spirit world in general as opposed to merely the Soviet drilling incident.

My apologies for both the vague conciseness of the post and for my nick-picky habit of correcting the proper spelling of my pseudonym—it is "BOGWarrior", for "BOG" is an acronym.  I will take the time to perhaps explain further my two statements above.

The first main reason that I do not believe that they drilled to Hell is simple: if we can get into Hell, then the demons and other, less fortunate beings can get out.  Granted, they would have a fourteen kilometer climb, which would probably prove very difficult to the hapless souls down there, but a demon with supernatural powers should be able to traverse it with ease, to wreak havoc upon the Earth.  In the literal sense of the cliché, "all Hell" would "break loose."

Secondly, the mere nature of Hell being so close to the realm of the living (particularly eyebrow-raising is the fact that it is beneath the Earth's crust) doesn't seem to make much sense.  When one dies, one's body is either cremated (burned by fire, and fire is a main theme in Hell, according to what I've heard) or buried into the Earth's crust.  I would think this would make it easier on the minions of Beelzebub, or on him himself, to retrieve the souls of humans from their decaying bodies, for they would be closer to him than to the Kingdom of God (assuming that is in our realm as well).  The third section is the "what if" form of a person escaping Hell out of the hole: if they do so, then they could walk with the living, perhaps communicating with them (as they heard screams over the microphone), and visiting their own graves.  What form would they take, then?  A ghost or other apparition?  Or would they have a reinstated physical body, as though the whole incident were straight out of a fantasy novel?  It's rather interesting.

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Re: Soviet Drilling Team Confirms Existence of Hell
« Reply #37 on: October 21, 2007, 03:38:43 AM »
Nothing is impossible.

Well, yes, nothing is impossible. It's encouraging to say that. It's possible to become a googlenaire, although it looks impossible, for example. However, that's related to reality, because there are things (God, Shiva, Satan, Hell, Naraka, etc) that just can't mix with the real world, never mind having the possibility to mix.

Learn the biases of your being an observer.
Although I don't necessary believe them, these are interesting biases/prejudices coming from this thread.

I can't say it's 100% impossible for Hell to exist below us. However, it's still impossible because, as you've said, if we can go to Hell, the demons can come to Earth. We should be seeing the demons scourging the lands by now.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2007, 03:47:44 AM by Jack. »

Re: Soviet Drilling Team Confirms Existence of Hell
« Reply #38 on: October 21, 2007, 03:51:33 AM »
Quote from: BOGWarrior89
The first main reason that I do not believe that they drilled to Hell is simple: if we can get into Hell, then the demons and other, less fortunate beings can get out.

Secondly, the mere nature of Hell being so close to the realm of the living (particularly eyebrow-raising is the fact that it is beneath the Earth's crust) doesn't seem to make much sense.  When one dies, one's body is either cremated (burned by fire, and fire is a main theme in Hell, according to what I've heard) or buried into the Earth's crust.  I would think this would make it easier on the minions of Beelzebub, or on him himself, to retrieve the souls of humans from their decaying bodies, for they would be closer to him than to the Kingdom of God (assuming that is in our realm as well).
Leaving aside for the moment the first part dealing with things like demons and the cosmology of the Underworld, I want to comment on the consistency of men which is technically three parts but for the purposes of this discussion the principle two parts of every man are body and soul, as you seem to already be cognizant of judging from your post.  Possibly you are a materialist and do not even believe in the soul at all, but reguardless of this the main point I want to emphasize is the distinction between the soul and the body and the definition of death.  The souls do not die and what we call death occurs the moment the soul exits the body.  When people die and are subsequently buried or burned, their soul has already exited their body.  A man who has just died can look down at his own dead body as if he has just taken off his clothes.  And he has not ceased his ability to see, hear, and speak, et cetera, but he is in another and higher realm not sensible to this one and therefore invisible to men.  After death, if there is a brief time before a man's soul is taken to either hell by demons or to a realm of judgment by angels and while still in this world, he can see others still living in the body but cannot communicate with them.

So when a man's carcass is rotting in the Earth, his soul would have departed already.

As to demons being able to get out, this already happens all the time interacting with men probably more than you have imagined in influential ways of a suggestive ccharacter according to what kind of demon it is.  Satan himself is indeed imprisoned in the Underworld, but his legions of demons sally to and fro operating in this world continually lurking about.  Demons are bodiless beings just like angels are.  This is why they are unseen.  The bat winged creature described was a genuine demon, but this is not his real form because he is formless.  The wings and all is an exterior form he took on to scare or in this case apparently to boast.  The same goes for angels.  They are not physically beautiful white youths with shining faces.  They are formless, but they are very real beings and the biblical language used to describe their exterior form contains symbolic knowledge about the character of these beings.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2007, 03:54:55 AM by DionysiosAreopagitis »

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divito the truthist

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Re: Soviet Drilling Team Confirms Existence of Hell
« Reply #39 on: October 21, 2007, 04:19:17 AM »
Nothing is impossible. It is far more accurate to utilize the terms improbable or implausible, but not impossible. It shows naivety to use impossible seriously.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2007, 09:51:34 AM by divito the fascist »
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Re: Soviet Drilling Team Confirms Existence of Hell
« Reply #40 on: October 21, 2007, 06:09:52 AM »
The levels of the underworld accompanied by a simple graphic depiction are described in an English translation of a cosmological treatise only known to have survived in Syriac and originally authored by the Athenian disciple of Saint Paul the Apostle named Dionysios the Areopagite who is mentioned by name in Acts 17.

"So Paul departed from among them.  Howbeit certain men clave unto him, and believed: among the which was Dionysius the Areopagite..."
http://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/greek-texts/new-testament/acts/17.asp

A Cosmological Tract
by Dionysios the Areopagite
http://www.sacred-texts.com/journals/jras/1917-07.htm
« Last Edit: October 21, 2007, 06:13:37 AM by DionysiosAreopagitis »

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BOGWarrior89

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Re: Soviet Drilling Team Confirms Existence of Hell
« Reply #41 on: October 21, 2007, 01:16:33 PM »
After death, if there is a brief time before a man's soul is taken to either hell by demons or to a realm of judgment by angels and while still in this world, he can see others still living in the body but cannot communicate with them.

Then how could they hear the screams from the souls in Hell?

Satan himself is indeed imprisoned in the Underworld

Why?  How?

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Masterchef

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Re: Soviet Drilling Team Confirms Existence of Hell
« Reply #42 on: October 21, 2007, 01:25:11 PM »
After death, if there is a brief time before a man's soul is taken to either hell by demons or to a realm of judgment by angels and while still in this world, he can see others still living in the body but cannot communicate with them.

Then how could they hear the screams from the souls in Hell?
He said they can't communicate before they go to heaven or hell. And he knows this, of course, because he has died before. ::)

Re: Soviet Drilling Team Confirms Existence of Hell
« Reply #43 on: October 21, 2007, 01:55:45 PM »
Quote from: BOGWarrior89
Then how could they hear the screams from the souls in Hell?
It is the conflux or meeting of two realms which occurred for this realm to be aware of what occurs in the other.  There is a reason for everything.  In this sense, this accident was no accident.  There does exist an exact  science of the spirit world especially concentrated in such books like the Philokalia and the Evergetinos, for example.  Christian Orthodox literature is full of relevant material including similar history in saints' lives so this story is not as difficult for me to believe and understand from another perspective as it is for you.  When I know of so much precedent for such a thing, I simply do not dismiss it as easily. 

Again, I am not saying hoaxes do not occur.  Perhaps this even is a hoax, but I seriously doubt it.  I would, however, say that I am absolutely certain of the similar kinds of stories in the life of saint Anthony of Egypt, more certain than I am of this Russian science team drilling story, but as to the science of the story, that is not in any way whatsoever an obstacle to my believing it.  Only the article which posted which was critical of the story and claimed to have traced some of its background.  Before I counted it on the same level of credibility with something like the stories
in the lives of the saints, I would perhaps want more confirmation.  Saint Macarius of Egypt did say test everything.  And the New Testament itself says test the spirits to see whether they be of God.

Quote from: BOGWarrior89
Why?  How?
The Apocalypse of Saint John the Theologian states in chapter 20 states:

 "And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.  And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,  And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him."

Re: Soviet Drilling Team Confirms Existence of Hell
« Reply #44 on: October 21, 2007, 02:03:45 PM »
Quote from: Masterchief2219
And he knows this, of course, because he has died before.
LOL, but seriously and soberly I get this information and understandind from Christian Orthodox sources which I can retrieve and post a couple subsequently.

  There are incidentally people living who have died before and come back to life some of whom are not by any means necessarily Christian.  Unfortunately, this is even practiced and worked into an art form by some advanced occultists and known as astral projection.  An outstanding example of an agnostic / atheist who practiced this is Robert Monroe.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astral_projection
http://www.corrystuart.com/RMonroe.html
« Last Edit: October 21, 2007, 02:14:17 PM by DionysiosAreopagitis »

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Masterchef

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Re: Soviet Drilling Team Confirms Existence of Hell
« Reply #45 on: October 21, 2007, 02:12:33 PM »
Quote from: Masterchief2219
And he knows this, of course, because he has died before.
LOL, but seriously and soberly I get this information and understandind from Christian Orthodox sources which I can retrieve and post a couple subsequently.
So did they die before as well?

Quote
There are incidentally people living who have died before and come back to life some of whom are not by any means necessarily Christian.  Unfortunately, this is even practiced and worked into an art form by some advanced occultists and known as astral projection.  An outstanding example of an agnostic / atheist who practiced this is Robert Monroe.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astral_projection
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Out-of-body_experience#Scientific_studies_of_OBEs

Re: Soviet Drilling Team Confirms Existence of Hell
« Reply #46 on: October 21, 2007, 02:27:20 PM »
Here are a couple of links.  The first one concerns death in general.

Saint Theodora's Journey Through the Aerial Toll Houses
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/death/theodora.aspx

The second link deals with OBE's as length as well as both the theological beliefs and actual out of body experiences from diverse religions, and of course the subject of death, and which is written from the Eastern Orthodox Christian view back in the 1980's.  This is only a description, but I will look for additional links:
The Soul After Death
by Seraphim Rose
http://www.sainthermanpress.com/catalog/chapter_one/sad_book.htm

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Re: Soviet Drilling Team Confirms Existence of Hell
« Reply #47 on: October 21, 2007, 03:16:15 PM »
I couldn't even believe this thread could go up to 3 pages. Just leave the fundamentalist alone.

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Masterchef

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Re: Soviet Drilling Team Confirms Existence of Hell
« Reply #48 on: October 21, 2007, 03:20:46 PM »
Here are a couple of links.  The first one concerns death in general.

Saint Theodora's Journey Through the Aerial Toll Houses
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/death/theodora.aspx

The second link deals with OBE's as length as well as both the theological beliefs and actual out of body experiences from diverse religions, and of course the subject of death, and which is written from the Eastern Orthodox Christian view back in the 1980's.  This is only a description, but I will look for additional links:
The Soul After Death
by Seraphim Rose
http://www.sainthermanpress.com/catalog/chapter_one/sad_book.htm

You still have not provided any actual evidence to support all these baseless claims you are making. Belief != Truth. You can quote all the religious sources you want, and you will still be no closer to supporting your side of the debate than you were before the debate started. And that is why there is no possible way for you to win here.

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Re: Soviet Drilling Team Confirms Existence of Hell
« Reply #49 on: October 21, 2007, 03:34:15 PM »
Nothing is impossible. It is far more accurate to utilize the terms improbable or implausible, but not impossible. It shows naivety to use impossible seriously.

True.  We can't always say things are impossible. However, like I've said, there are things that don't mix with reality, as judged by our common sense and logic. For example, when a person dies, he dies; he can't come back up and watch TV with you the next day because its unrealistic. This is what we call "realism". I hope you get what I mean by this.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2007, 03:41:28 PM by Jack. »

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Raist

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Re: Soviet Drilling Team Confirms Existence of Hell
« Reply #50 on: October 21, 2007, 06:02:21 PM »
Quote from: divito the fascist
http://www.popsci.com/popsci/science/b9afe288d12c6010vgnvcm1000004eecbccdrcrd.html

7.5 miles = 12.07008 kilometers (And that's as of Oct. 2005)
Thanks for that relevant and useful link, but the following statement by Rena Marie Pacella that "We have so far drilled just 7.5 miles into the Earth's rocky crust" is no more authoritative than the Soviet article.  It does give an idea, but I am not convinced from this one page article that Pacella looked up everything in every country and nothing slipped by him.  Soviet technology in quantitativeness often exceeds that of the west and otherr industrialized countries.  Take submarine technology, for example.  Details of soviet era statistics as well as Russian resources today are often very foreign and not readily accessible to ordinary western researchers.

Still a good link though.  Thanks for the post.
Why would she need to check all countries? Only the larger countries would commission drilling that far down. Also if a country set a record, don't you think they would announce it?

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divito the truthist

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Re: Soviet Drilling Team Confirms Existence of Hell
« Reply #51 on: October 21, 2007, 06:39:23 PM »
True.  We can't always say things are impossible. However, like I've said, there are things that don't mix with reality, as judged by our common sense and logic. For example, when a person dies, he dies; he can't come back up and watch TV with you the next day because its unrealistic. This is what we call "realism". I hope you get what I mean by this.

And what about people that are brought back?

And in a way you're right, but there are circumstances that would allow someone to come back from the dead. They are just highly, highly unlikely. Or in other words, improbable.
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Raist

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Re: Soviet Drilling Team Confirms Existence of Hell
« Reply #52 on: October 21, 2007, 06:48:44 PM »
People come back from the dead all the time. I know people that have been legally dead for a very short period of time, and my dad brought quite a few people back to life when he was a medic.

Re: Soviet Drilling Team Confirms Existence of Hell
« Reply #53 on: October 22, 2007, 04:57:23 AM »
Quote from: MasterChief
You still have not provided any actual evidence to support all these baseless claims you are making.

Quote from: Raist
People come back from the dead all the time. I know people that have been legally dead for a very short period of time, and my dad brought quite a few people back to life when he was a medic.
Your willful ignorance of religious sources cannot and does not invalidate them.  "The Soul After Death" which I earlier cited incorporates quite a bit of secular evidence similar to what Raist has posted.  Reguardless of the amount or even the kind of relevant material I post, you will always have the power to call it stupid or choose to believe what is false.  I of course cannot make up your mind for you.

However, I think that we are establishing that people experiencing actual death and then coming back to life does occur, and this has been documented by non-religious people as well.  In the majority of such cases, I am saying that a person's soul exited the body and subsequently reentered.  There is too much evidence in favor of this.  For example, how else could so many records of such occurrences reveal so many people who were cognizant of details of events which occurred during the time of their death which they had no other way of knowing other than that their living soul had exited their body and observed the events?

Re: Soviet Drilling Team Confirms Existence of Hell
« Reply #54 on: October 22, 2007, 05:02:04 AM »
Quote from: Jack
there are things that don't mix with reality, as judged by our common sense and logic. For example, when a person dies, he dies; he can't come back up and watch TV with you the next day because its unrealistic.
One thing I can say in Jack's favor is that he is obviously not an occultist.

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Raist

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Re: Soviet Drilling Team Confirms Existence of Hell
« Reply #55 on: October 22, 2007, 05:41:34 AM »
Quote from: MasterChief
You still have not provided any actual evidence to support all these baseless claims you are making.

Quote from: Raist
People come back from the dead all the time. I know people that have been legally dead for a very short period of time, and my dad brought quite a few people back to life when he was a medic.
Your willful ignorance of religious sources cannot and does not invalidate them.  "The Soul After Death" which I earlier cited incorporates quite a bit of secular evidence similar to what Raist has posted.  Reguardless of the amount or even the kind of relevant material I post, you will always have the power to call it stupid or choose to believe what is false.  I of course cannot make up your mind for you.

However, I think that we are establishing that people experiencing actual death and then coming back to life does occur, and this has been documented by non-religious people as well.  In the majority of such cases, I am saying that a person's soul exited the body and subsequently reentered.  There is too much evidence in favor of this.  For example, how else could so many records of such occurrences reveal so many people who were cognizant of details of events which occurred during the time of their death which they had no other way of knowing other than that their living soul had exited their body and observed the events?
Um coming back to life more disproves having a soul then proves it. When someone "dies" it simply is the heart heart stopping and the brain functions shut down. If oxygenated blood circulates awakening the brain, it can continue to cause the heart to beat. As long as no lethal damage has occured the person will continue to live. So how is this proff of a soul?

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Masterchef

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Re: Soviet Drilling Team Confirms Existence of Hell
« Reply #56 on: October 22, 2007, 06:33:35 AM »
Your willful ignorance of religious sources cannot and does not invalidate them.  "The Soul After Death" which I earlier cited incorporates quite a bit of secular evidence similar to what Raist has posted.  Reguardless of the amount or even the kind of relevant material I post, you will always have the power to call it stupid or choose to believe what is false.  I of course cannot make up your mind for you.
It isn't willful ignorance, it is an understanding of the definition of the word "evidence". ::)

If you are going to insist on continuing to quote religious sources, you are going to have to prove the sources true first. And when you use other religious sources to support these sources, because I know you will, you have to prove those sources true as well. Also, you can not use a source to prove itself (like the way you use the bible). Yes, these same rules apply to "secular" evidence as well. ::)

So until you learn how to actually support your claim, there is absolutely no chance that you will ever win this debate, no matter how many times you insist you are right.