The FE sun is impossible

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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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The FE sun is impossible
« on: October 10, 2007, 09:56:15 PM »
Tom Bishop among others have fallen back on the support of FE writers to help explain phenomenons. However, supporting these "Sacred Texts" http://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/za/za02.htm means that I can attack them directly and save time.

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I am curious how the sunsets can be explained as "too far to see" or an "optical illusion"

Explained in Chapter 9 of the book Earth Not a Globe:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/za/za27.htm

It states that the sun which supposedly moves parallel to the surface of the Earth in a circle, appears to set because a distancing object will do such as a law of perspective. This would require the velocity of the sun to dramatically increase in speed the closer to the horizon it is in order to look as if it were in fact setting. Moving straight at a constant speed would make it look slower the further away it is.

Just to indulge this little overlooked implication, people the sun is passing over don't notice the sun speeding up but in fact see the opposite: slowing down on this straight line. The only explanation is that the sun actually sets. Besides, if the sun was that small, going such a distance would make it appear to shrink.

I also would like to mention for the Flat Sun theorists, a circle viewed at an angle looks like an oval. If you don't believe me, draw a circle on a peice of paper and tilt it. Ooooh! Its an ellipse now!

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Also, the shape of the sun and moon should appear to change as they move over the FE.

The sun is a sphere. Its light is limited to a spotlight.

Ummm... Dude, light is how we SEE stuff. If the sun was spherical but only emits light like a spot light, than we would still see the oval effect.

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Basically, earthlings would be able to see the sun from anywhere on a flat earth.. even if the sun wasn't shinning directly on them.

The sun is very small and very close to the earth. This allows the sun to only light one section of the world at a time.

Which is why moving that far towards the horizon would make it appear to shrink massively. Only a very large object would appear to remain constant when moving that far away.

These issues were not covered in your "sacred texts".  ::)
« Last Edit: October 14, 2007, 03:58:58 PM by L0gic »
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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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Re: The FE sun is impossible
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2007, 09:58:51 PM »
A vague concept of a possible explanation is presented in Chapter 10. Summarized: "the refraction of the light makes the sun look big." This would imply, that the sun reached the distance necessary to appear to touch the horizon and yet hasn't accelerated to reach this distance. (I noticed you ignored this point while attempting to answer the others.)

Furthermore, the sun is very bright and intense on the horizon. Then it cuts off at the bottom. It doesn't fade out as air gradually blocks our view of it. Billions of people witness this day after day.

One more problem, as the distance of the sun gets larger, the angle of sight for the sun decreases asymptotically to zero degrees. Since the human eye is not absolutely perfect, we will be overly generous in our experiment and say that a one degree angle over this vast difference wouldn't be seen. Suppose we also generously let the suns distance reach its maximum of the diameter of the Earth continuing to favor your side. 24,900 miles long 3,000 miles high makes the angle to see the sun as 6.86999 degrees. This would make the sun seem to approach the horizon but not get close enough to mistake it for setting. Keep in mind, that this also used a distance much greater than your theory allows with timezones.
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Re: The FE sun is impossible
« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2007, 12:15:40 PM »
L0gic, the sun would not "set" in the FE theory. It would get smaller and smaller and less bright, but it would not set. We clearly see it set.

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divito the truthist

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Re: The FE sun is impossible
« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2007, 12:17:56 PM »
Technically, in RE, all it does is become blocked by the Earth.
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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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Re: The FE sun is impossible
« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2007, 03:33:25 PM »
Emailking, I realize that the FE sun does not set, and we see it set. That is one of the points I am trying to make in this topic.

As for Divito the fascist's post, I fail to see how the RE model defends the FE model...
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divito the truthist

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Re: The FE sun is impossible
« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2007, 03:36:34 PM »
As for Divito the fascist's post, I fail to see how the RE model defends the FE model...

I was just outlining that the sun doesn't "set;" it just ceases to be in view.
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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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Re: The FE sun is impossible
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2007, 03:47:20 PM »
As for Divito the fascist's post, I fail to see how the RE model defends the FE model...

I was just outlining that the sun doesn't "set;" it just ceases to be in view.

Then what do people mean when they say the sun has set? It is ceasing to be in view because it is locked by the Earth yes, but the common usage versus technical use of the word seems irrelevant to the concept. In either case, I have yet to hear conclusive counter arguments and responses to my first posts.
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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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Re: The FE sun is impossible
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2007, 06:45:19 PM »
It's been close to a full day since I posted my topic showing why an FE sun can't exist and I have yet to receive a response from any Flat Earther either to correct me, answer me, speculate on an answer, or realize that FE is an invalid theory. What's wrong? Find a solid indisputable first hand experience shared by billions and you run away?  :D
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divito the truthist

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Re: The FE sun is impossible
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2007, 06:50:06 PM »
The posts are rather large; even I've only skimmed it. That's probably the reason.
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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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Re: The FE sun is impossible
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2007, 07:19:52 PM »
I can summarize the 5 points I brought up to gain people's interest then:

Problem 1.

FE model states the sun moves away from a point on the Earth to make it look like its "setting". Anyone who has seen the sun at all points of day can tell you the sun appears to move at a constant speed along its path in the sky. A distancing object overhead would not appear to travel at the same speed, because as it is further away, the angle you view it at approaches zero slower. Imagine a car next to you driving to your right. At first the speed seems substantial but as it gets further away the change is less noticeable. The sun would have to accelerate to maintain the illusion of constant speed. A timezone over, people see the sun moving as we do, meaning it didn't accelerate.

Problem 2.
Much to do with problem 1 but with size not speed... An object like the sun distancing overhead moving as far away as FE claims would shrink in size much more substantially than is viewed. Only a massive object very far away would seem not to change in size as it moved away. An extreme example is a ship and a rubber ball both move away from you. The rubber ball is close enough to look the same size as the ship. Both move half a mile away. The ball is barely if at all visible whereas the ship shrank less.

Problem 3
. A spotlight sun as implied by many FE theorists would look like an oval as it moved away. Any 2-D object appears to flatten from an angle. Read my signature btw...

Problem 4 and 5. (problem 5) Using numbers from the FAQ we can mathematically prove that the sun should be visible from all points of earth. If you apply the notion that air pollution and only partial transparency is the cause, then (problem 4) this means that the sun would be seen in an in between state, where is is partially visible in the air. It would not even touch the ground before disappearing based on FE numbers. Watch the sun set. It goes behind the horizon, it doesn't fade out.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2007, 07:25:03 PM by L0gic »
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Re: The FE sun is impossible
« Reply #10 on: October 12, 2007, 07:04:28 AM »
It's official RE's won. :o Each problem I summarized is quick and easy reading. The lack of responses must indicate lack of ability to respond. All you FE's, should either argue your side or admit I'm right.
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Re: The FE sun is impossible
« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2007, 05:10:33 PM »
Technically, in RE, all it does is become blocked by the Earth.

technically, in life, that is known as setting.
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divito the truthist

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Re: The FE sun is impossible
« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2007, 06:14:03 PM »
technically, in life, that is known as setting.

Very good! You pass Grade 1!
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Re: The FE sun is impossible
« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2007, 08:01:01 PM »
I think the most illogical thing I ever read was in this thread... "The sun is a sphere, it's light is limited to a spotlight."
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Re: The FE sun is impossible
« Reply #14 on: October 12, 2007, 09:01:11 PM »
I think the most illogical thing I ever read was in this thread... "The sun is a sphere, it's light is limited to a spotlight."
Yeah.. It makes my list of top 5.
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Jack

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Re: The FE sun is impossible
« Reply #15 on: October 12, 2007, 11:37:49 PM »
I think the most illogical thing I ever read was in this thread... "The sun is a sphere, it's light is limited to a spotlight."

Yup, and a spotlight somehow powers up all the things in this planet.

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Re: The FE sun is impossible
« Reply #16 on: October 13, 2007, 12:04:38 AM »
...and yet another foundation stone is ripped from beneath His Majesty King Tom I's feet....
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Re: The FE sun is impossible
« Reply #17 on: October 13, 2007, 04:03:36 AM »
...and yet another foundation stone is ripped from beneath His Majesty King Tom I's feet....
Put it back where you found it, you unicorn abusing wish granter.

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John Davis

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Re: The FE sun is impossible
« Reply #18 on: October 13, 2007, 10:15:00 AM »
powers up all the things in this planet.
What?
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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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Re: The FE sun is impossible
« Reply #19 on: October 13, 2007, 10:21:17 AM »
Whats "what"?
Solar energy is responsible for heat, light, agricultural growth, wind, and pretty much everything else...
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John Davis

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Re: The FE sun is impossible
« Reply #20 on: October 13, 2007, 10:42:53 AM »
I believe it to be possible that aether bends sunlight relative to the viewer, based on arctan(1/-tan(((earth radius - rimdistance)*180/40,008 km)-90)/cos(hour*360/24)) =  angle.  This is known as Sun-Aether refraction.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2007, 10:48:08 AM by Username »
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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: The FE sun is impossible
« Reply #21 on: October 13, 2007, 11:00:14 AM »
I can summarize the 5 points I brought up to gain people's interest then:

Problem 1.

FE model states the sun moves away from a point on the Earth to make it look like its "setting". Anyone who has seen the sun at all points of day can tell you the sun appears to move at a constant speed along its path in the sky. A distancing object overhead would not appear to travel at the same speed, because as it is further away, the angle you view it at approaches zero slower. Imagine a car next to you driving to your right. At first the speed seems substantial but as it gets further away the change is less noticeable. The sun would have to accelerate to maintain the illusion of constant speed. A timezone over, people see the sun moving as we do, meaning it didn't accelerate.

Problem 2.
Much to do with problem 1 but with size not speed... An object like the sun distancing overhead moving as far away as FE claims would shrink in size much more substantially than is viewed. Only a massive object very far away would seem not to change in size as it moved away. An extreme example is a ship and a rubber ball both move away from you. The rubber ball is close enough to look the same size as the ship. Both move half a mile away. The ball is barely if at all visible whereas the ship shrank less.

Problem 3
. A spotlight sun as implied by many FE theorists would look like an oval as it moved away. Any 2-D object appears to flatten from an angle. Read my signature btw...

Problem 4 and 5. (problem 5) Using numbers from the FAQ we can mathematically prove that the sun should be visible from all points of earth. If you apply the notion that air pollution and only partial transparency is the cause, then (problem 4) this means that the sun would be seen in an in between state, where is is partially visible in the air. It would not even touch the ground before disappearing based on FE numbers. Watch the sun set. It goes behind the horizon, it doesn't fade out.


tl; dr
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Re: The FE sun is impossible
« Reply #22 on: October 13, 2007, 08:50:11 PM »
I can summarize the 5 points I brought up to gain people's interest then:

Problem 1.

FE model states the sun moves away from a point on the Earth to make it look like its "setting". Anyone who has seen the sun at all points of day can tell you the sun appears to move at a constant speed along its path in the sky. A distancing object overhead would not appear to travel at the same speed, because as it is further away, the angle you view it at approaches zero slower. Imagine a car next to you driving to your right. At first the speed seems substantial but as it gets further away the change is less noticeable. The sun would have to accelerate to maintain the illusion of constant speed. A timezone over, people see the sun moving as we do, meaning it didn't accelerate.

Problem 2.
Much to do with problem 1 but with size not speed... An object like the sun distancing overhead moving as far away as FE claims would shrink in size much more substantially than is viewed. Only a massive object very far away would seem not to change in size as it moved away. An extreme example is a ship and a rubber ball both move away from you. The rubber ball is close enough to look the same size as the ship. Both move half a mile away. The ball is barely if at all visible whereas the ship shrank less.

Problem 3
. A spotlight sun as implied by many FE theorists would look like an oval as it moved away. Any 2-D object appears to flatten from an angle. Read my signature btw...

Problem 4 and 5. (problem 5) Using numbers from the FAQ we can mathematically prove that the sun should be visible from all points of earth. If you apply the notion that air pollution and only partial transparency is the cause, then (problem 4) this means that the sun would be seen in an in between state, where is is partially visible in the air. It would not even touch the ground before disappearing based on FE numbers. Watch the sun set. It goes behind the horizon, it doesn't fade out.


tl; dr

Just read one of the problems then. Its a collection of problems not a novel.
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Tom Bishop

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Re: The FE sun is impossible
« Reply #23 on: October 13, 2007, 11:13:30 PM »
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I also would like to mention for the Flat Sun theorists, a circle viewed at an angle looks like an oval. If you don't believe me, draw a circle on a peice of paper and tilt it. Ooooh! Its an ellipse now!

The sun is a globe in FE. Its light is limited to a spotlight.

The question, "how is it that the earth is not at all times illuminated all over its surface, seeing that the sun is always several hundred miles above it?" may be answered as follows:--

First, if no atmosphere existed, no doubt the light of the sun would diffuse over the whole earth at once, and alternations of light and darkness could not exist.

Secondly, as the earth is covered with an atmosphere of many miles in depth, the density of which gradually increases downwards to the surface, all the rays of light except those which are vertical, as they enter the upper stratum of air are arrested in their course of diffusion, and by refraction bent downwards towards the earth; as this takes place in all directions round the sun--equally where density and other conditions are equal, and vice versā--the effect is a comparatively distinct disc of sun-light.

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Ummm... Dude, light is how we SEE stuff. If the sun was spherical but only emits light like a spot light, than we would still see the oval effect.

The sun emits light in all directions. A sphere at an angle still looks like a sphere, not an oval.

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Just to indulge this little overlooked implication, people the sun is passing over don't notice the sun speeding up but in fact see the opposite: slowing down on this straight line.

Chapter 10 of Earth Not a Globe shows how the sun's apparent angle in the sky is not due to perspective, but from its image projected upon the atmosphere. Hence, its speed through the sky is constant. Perspective just describes why the sun sinks as it recedes.

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Which is why moving that far towards the horizon would make it appear to shrink massively. Only a very large object would appear to remain constant when moving that far away.

These issues were not covered in your "sacred texts".  ::)

Yes, the issues are addressed. You forgot to read Chapter 10, which describes how the sun is able to maintain its size at a distance.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2007, 12:49:13 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Jack

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Re: The FE sun is impossible
« Reply #24 on: October 13, 2007, 11:18:56 PM »
Chapter 10 of Earth Not a Globe describes how the sus angle is not due to perspective, but from its image projected upon the atmosphere.

No need to read ENaG.

The sun is a globe. Its light is limited to a spotlight.
Nope, the sun is not a spotlight.


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Tom Bishop

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Re: The FE sun is impossible
« Reply #25 on: October 13, 2007, 11:26:09 PM »
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No need to read ENaG.

If you refuse to read the literature, perhaps you should stop asking questions.

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Nope, the sun is not a spotlight.

Yes, actually it is.

The sun also acts as a spotlight in Round Earth Theory.

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Re: The FE sun is impossible
« Reply #26 on: October 13, 2007, 11:42:43 PM »
If you refuse to read the literature, perhaps you should stop asking questions.
I refused to read the literature doesn't mean I should stop asking questions. You can't stop me.

Yes, actually it is.

The sun also acts as a spotlight in Round Earth Theory.

Nope, the sun is not a spotlight in the Round Earth Reality.  The sun is a massive, luminous ball of plasma.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: The FE sun is impossible
« Reply #27 on: October 14, 2007, 12:47:40 AM »
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I refused to read the literature doesn't mean I should stop asking questions. You can't stop me.

Whenever you ask a question we'll just keep on referring you to the literature. So you may as well read it now and save all of us the effort.

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Nope, the sun is not a spotlight in the Round Earth Reality.  The sun is a massive, luminous ball of plasma.

Actually, in the Round Earth Theory the sun's effect upon the earth is that of a spotlight.

Are you claiming that all of the earth is lit at one time in RET?

Re: The FE sun is impossible
« Reply #28 on: October 14, 2007, 12:59:04 AM »


Actually, in the Round Earth Theory the sun's effect upon the earth is that of a spotlight.



That is 100% incorrect Tom

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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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Re: The FE sun is impossible
« Reply #29 on: October 14, 2007, 07:39:18 AM »
The sun is a globe in FE. Its light is limited to a spotlight.
The sun emits light in all directions.

Seriously, though.

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The question, "how is it that the earth is not at all times illuminated all over its surface, seeing that the sun is always several hundred miles above it?" may be answered as follows:--

First, if no atmosphere existed, no doubt the light of the sun would diffuse over the whole earth at once, and alternations of light and darkness could not exist.

Secondly, as the earth is covered with an atmosphere of many miles in depth, the density of which gradually increases downwards to the surface, all the rays of light except those which are vertical, as they enter the upper stratum of air are arrested in their course of diffusion, and by refraction bent downwards towards the earth; as this takes place in all directions round the sun--equally where density and other conditions are equal, and vice versā--the effect is a comparatively distinct disc of sun-light.

Light leaving the atmosphere cannot be refracted into a U-Turn back down. Please cite your sources for this considerable claim.

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Ummm... Dude, light is how we SEE stuff. If the sun was spherical but only emits light like a spot light, than we would still see the oval effect.
The sun emits light in all directions. A sphere at an angle still looks like a sphere, not an oval.

Actually, it looks like a circle. You can't tell it's a sphere from one view without texture or reflections. But regardless, you seem to contradict yourself as I put the two quotes together at the  top.

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Just to indulge this little overlooked implication, people the sun is passing over don't notice the sun speeding up but in fact see the opposite: slowing down on this straight line.

Chapter 10 of Earth Not a Globe shows how the sun's apparent angle in the sky is not due to perspective, but from its image projected upon the atmosphere. Hence, its speed through the sky is constant. Perspective just describes why the sun sinks as it recedes.

Except I have looked at the sun through dark glass to filter out the glare. I have seen its real size throughout the day.

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Which is why moving that far towards the horizon would make it appear to shrink massively. Only a very large object would appear to remain constant when moving that far away.

These issues were not covered in your "sacred texts".  ::)

Yes, the issues are addressed. You forgot to read Chapter 10, which describes how the sun is able to maintain its size at a distance.

I read it. I forgot to post reasons how I proved it wrong. My bad.  ;)
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