WHY DO WE ALWAYS SEE THE SAME FACE OF THE MOON

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bubbles

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WHY DO WE ALWAYS SEE THE SAME FACE OF THE MOON
« on: October 07, 2007, 10:14:10 PM »
I've read the FAQ, searched the forum, and asked several times (and variations) myself.  All I've heard is...thundering silence.

The FE model would seem to predict that we'd see pretty much any and all parts of the moon, save for a tiny area at the very top.  Furthermore, two observers at any modest distance apart should see different views of the moon at the same time.

Furthermore, if the moon is in fact between 35 and 10,000 miles above us (depending on with FE model you believe), we should very easily be able to determine it's distance through simple parallax.  Two observers, 2,000 miles apart, take a digital photo of the moon at the same time.  It's position against background stars should be wildly different between the two (not to mention the two seeing readily visibly different portions of the moon's surface.  (I realize that in FE theory stars aren't in the realm of light years away--but they are still farther than the moon depending on which theory you believe--even twice as far should be enough.)

If you can't explain such a rediculously simple observation and won't even try, we are left to assume that your model is wrong.
Look you ugly son of a bitch, making up observations and unfounded suppositions is exactly what the Flat Earth Society is about.

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Torn Bishop

Re: WHY DO WE ALWAYS SEE THE SAME FACE OF THE MOON
« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2007, 10:22:27 PM »
I've read the FAQ, searched the forum, and asked several times (and variations) myself.  All I've heard is...thundering silence.

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Gulliver

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Re: WHY DO WE ALWAYS SEE THE SAME FACE OF THE MOON
« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2007, 10:40:57 PM »
I've read the FAQ, searched the forum, and asked several times (and variations) myself.  All I've heard is...thundering silence.

The FE model would seem to predict that we'd see pretty much any and all parts of the moon, save for a tiny area at the very top.  Furthermore, two observers at any modest distance apart should see different views of the moon at the same time.

Furthermore, if the moon is in fact between 35 and 10,000 miles above us (depending on with FE model you believe), we should very easily be able to determine it's distance through simple parallax.  Two observers, 2,000 miles apart, take a digital photo of the moon at the same time.  It's position against background stars should be wildly different between the two (not to mention the two seeing readily visibly different portions of the moon's surface.  (I realize that in FE theory stars aren't in the realm of light years away--but they are still farther than the moon depending on which theory you believe--even twice as far should be enough.)

If you can't explain such a rediculously simple observation and won't even try, we are left to assume that your model is wrong.
Your challenge is well-document, complete with a worked example, in Experiment #0003 in The RE Primer.

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bubbles

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Re: WHY DO WE ALWAYS SEE THE SAME FACE OF THE MOON
« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2007, 11:18:18 PM »
Your challenge is well-document, complete with a worked example, in Experiment #0003 in The RE Primer.

Aaaaagggghhhhh!  Office 2007!  And to think, I once had some respect for you.  ;-)

Which is odd too, because a couple of days ago it was a regular .doc.

I quit Microsoft because of Vista and Office 2007.  2003 is the last version of Office I will ever use (though I do have Vista+2007 on a VM just in case), although I'm 100% OpenOffice.org on Linux now anyway.  Why not HTML better yet, on-line HTML?
Look you ugly son of a bitch, making up observations and unfounded suppositions is exactly what the Flat Earth Society is about.

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Dead Kangaroo

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Re: WHY DO WE ALWAYS SEE THE SAME FACE OF THE MOON
« Reply #4 on: October 08, 2007, 04:52:11 AM »
Your challenge is well-document, complete with a worked example, in Experiment #0003 in The RE Primer.

Aaaaagggghhhhh!  Office 2007!  And to think, I once had some respect for you.  ;-)

Which is odd too, because a couple of days ago it was a regular .doc.

I quit Microsoft because of Vista and Office 2007.  2003 is the last version of Office I will ever use (though I do have Vista+2007 on a VM just in case), although I'm 100% OpenOffice.org on Linux now anyway.  Why not HTML better yet, on-line HTML?
>>>Poorly converted alternative.<<<

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Tom Bishop

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Re: WHY DO WE ALWAYS SEE THE SAME FACE OF THE MOON
« Reply #6 on: October 08, 2007, 06:58:05 AM »
We see the same face of the moon because, like the sun, the moon's light is also limited to a spotlight. We are not able to see the moon as it makes a complete circuit around the hub of the earth, and therefore we are not able to see the sides of the moon. We are only able to see the moon for a limited time as it passes over our vicinity because as its light passes through the firmament and atmosphere it is bent downwards towards the earth vis-a-vis the refraction properties of Snells Law. This creates a relatively succinct spotlight upon the earth.

As the moon passes over our vicinity it appears to wobble as we view it from a slightly different viewing angle. Here is an animation.

As for the distance to the moon, the distance to the moon is very easy to determine. Consult the work of Thomas Winship for a good explanation for how we can use parallax on a plane surface to come up with our figures on celestial distances.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2007, 07:20:46 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Brennan

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Re: WHY DO WE ALWAYS SEE THE SAME FACE OF THE MOON
« Reply #7 on: October 08, 2007, 07:52:08 AM »
Here is an animation
That looks amazingly like incident light illuminating a changing area on a sphere. Rather than a 'spotlight'.
Quote from: Tom Bishop
tell me how your model explains why deep-dripping Russian geologists found an impenetrable layer of turtle shell when attempting to breach the crust of the earth.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: WHY DO WE ALWAYS SEE THE SAME FACE OF THE MOON
« Reply #8 on: October 08, 2007, 07:56:23 AM »
Here is an animation
That looks amazingly like incident light illuminating a changing area on a sphere. Rather than a 'spotlight'.

That's because the moon is a sphere in Flat Earth Theory. It emits light in all directions. If the atmosphere and firmament did not exist, no doubt the light of the moon would diffuse over the whole earth at once, and the moon would be seen at all times throughout a 24 hour period.

Secondly, as the earth is covered with an atmosphere of many miles in depth, the density of which gradually increases downwards to the surface, all the rays of light except those which are vertical, as they enter the upper stratum of air are arrested in their course of diffusion, and by refraction bent downwards towards the earth; as this takes place in all directions round the moon--equally where density and other conditions are equal, and vice versâ--the effect is a comparatively distinct disc of moon-light. 

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Brennan

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Re: WHY DO WE ALWAYS SEE THE SAME FACE OF THE MOON
« Reply #9 on: October 08, 2007, 08:32:41 AM »
Secondly, as the earth is covered with an atmosphere of many miles in depth, the density of which gradually increases downwards to the surface, all the rays of light except those which are vertical, as they enter the upper stratum of air are arrested in their course of diffusion, and by refraction bent downwards towards the earth; as this takes place in all directions round the moon--equally where density and other conditions are equal, and vice versâ--the effect is a comparatively distinct disc of moon-light. 
TB you disappoint me. I was one of the people who pointed out to you that this was a load of bollocks last week. The total angle of refraction is dependant purely upon the total change in density and is nothing to do with the distance over which the change occurs.
Quote from: Tom Bishop
tell me how your model explains why deep-dripping Russian geologists found an impenetrable layer of turtle shell when attempting to breach the crust of the earth.

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bubbles

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Re: WHY DO WE ALWAYS SEE THE SAME FACE OF THE MOON
« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2007, 08:40:41 AM »
http://www.sigmundvoid.com/?p=81

Didn't know this was out there (obviously), much appreciated.
Look you ugly son of a bitch, making up observations and unfounded suppositions is exactly what the Flat Earth Society is about.

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Dead Kangaroo

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Re: WHY DO WE ALWAYS SEE THE SAME FACE OF THE MOON
« Reply #11 on: October 08, 2007, 09:03:10 AM »
Secondly, as the earth is covered with an atmosphere of many miles in depth, the density of which gradually increases downwards to the surface, all the rays of light except those which are vertical, as they enter the upper stratum of air are arrested in their course of diffusion, and by refraction bent downwards towards the earth; as this takes place in all directions round the moon--equally where density and other conditions are equal, and vice versâ--the effect is a comparatively distinct disc of moon-light. 
TB you disappoint me. I was one of the people who pointed out to you that this was a load of bollocks last week. The total angle of refraction is dependant purely upon the total change in density and is nothing to do with the distance over which the change occurs.
Recycling bollocks is how he tries to understand reality, hence he's delusional.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: WHY DO WE ALWAYS SEE THE SAME FACE OF THE MOON
« Reply #12 on: October 08, 2007, 11:34:25 AM »
Quote
TB you disappoint me. I was one of the people who pointed out to you that this was a load of bollocks last week. The total angle of refraction is dependant purely upon the total change in density and is nothing to do with the distance over which the change occurs.

If the angle of light changes at the upper strata, that angular change will become significant through its path over tens of thousands of miles of atmosphere. The ray of light will continue to diverge from the norm, separating downwards with time and distance. It takes no leap of the mind to see that even a small change in the angle of light can cause a large effect over a distance.

Just looking at the refraction index number and deducing that "it wont work because I think the number is too small" is absolutely ignorant. If you've ever played with Lightwave you would know that even a small change in a refraction index can have a profoundly large effect large effect on a render.

To cement the fact that the refraction index through air IS negligible, here is an image:



We see that over the course of a dozen miles the refraction of Snells Law has created this fantastic Arctic superior mirage with a hovering ice burg.

Cold air is denser than warm air, and has therefore a greater refractive index. A superior mirage occurs when the air below the line of sight is colder than that above. This is called a temperature inversion, since it does not represent the normal equilibrium temperature gradient of the atmosphere. These type of scenes are common in the polar regions where the earth's surface is colder than the air above it. As every polar explorer could personally tell you, Snell's Law creates mirages and illusions of every sort throughout the polar day.

    "The land looks like a fairytale." — Roald Amundsen about Antarctica.

Hence, I've demonstrated that the refractive properties of Snell's Law is quite profound, that over tens of thousands of miles the initial effect will become even more exaggerated, light continuing to diverge from its normal path, the initial angular change continuing to separate the rays of light over distance.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2007, 11:37:48 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Max Fagin

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Re: WHY DO WE ALWAYS SEE THE SAME FACE OF THE MOON
« Reply #13 on: October 08, 2007, 12:17:09 PM »
As the moon passes over our vicinity it appears to wobble as we view it from a slightly different viewing angle. Here is an animation.

Except that lunar libration (The wobbling effect shown in the animation) occurs over a FULL MONTH.  It does not occur in a single night.
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bubbles

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Re: WHY DO WE ALWAYS SEE THE SAME FACE OF THE MOON
« Reply #14 on: October 08, 2007, 12:54:24 PM »
We see the same face of the moon because, like the sun, the moon's light is also limited to a spotlight.

Are you saying what I think you are saying--that the moon is self-luminous?  Let me just establish that that's what you are saying, before going further with that.


And you seem to be saying the moon is a spotlight.  (I must admit that on this forum is the first time I've ever heard the word "spotlight" used as a purportedly scientific term!)  Because, in this post below, you say it radiates in all directions:
That's because the moon is a sphere in Flat Earth Theory. It emits light in all directions.

Perhaps I am not understanding one or both of your full arguments.


...it is bent downwards towards the earth vis-a-vis the refraction properties of Snells Law.

I'm sorry Tom, but you may not use scientific principles in your arguments.  You think science is a religion and is wrong.  Your arguments are going to have to stand on their own, perhaps recruiting laws of nature from FE theory.  You are not allowed to tarnish anything having to do with science.  Besides, instead of invoking the fancy phrase "Snell's Law" clearly just to jazz-up your argument, you can just say "refraction".  That is acceptable, shorter, and simpler.


As the moon passes over our vicinity it appears to wobble as we view it from a slightly different viewing angle.
Tom, oh shit.  I've got to quit laughing.  I don't know whether to reach out to you out of pity, make fun of you, continue laughing, or just shake my head in sadness.  (later: I've quit laughing and chosen the latter.)  This is the single-most retarded thing I've ever heard, I really do think so.  You cannot possibly believe what you just said.  Maybe I'm a sucker, but I'm going to pretend you did.

First of all, you submitted a photo to me as evidence.  You can't do that Tom, not until you accept photos as evidence.  Be consistent.

But OK I'll let this one slide, mainly because I've seen it before and have never had a problem with it.  The animation you linked to is over the course of a full lunar cycle (almost a month).  If you don't believe me, the dates are marked on each frame--every frame of the very thing you presented to me as evidence.  The wobble takes nearly a month to complete, it doesn't happen "as the moon passes over our vicinity".  In your model, the moon "passes over our vicinity" once a day.

Furthermore, according to FE theory, the moon is something like 35 miles up.  Tom Theory says it is approx 5,000 or 10,000, I don't recall which.  Let's say 10,000 to be generous.  I think you believe the Earth is something like 5,000 miles in diameter.  (Please correct me--I am guessing but I don't need to be accurate on your beliefs on these points, because it is OK within of an magnitude.)  Such a slight wobble might accomodate a distance of few miles in observation location or lunar rotation--but a variance of 2,000 miles would produce a substantially different view.  (Base of 20% height!.)  There is not a single photo of the moon--from any location on Earth or time--that shows even remotely that much variance in the face pointing us.  In fact, all locations show the same variation--the animation you sent of lunar libration.

And presumably, the moon travels more than 2,000 miles as it circles the earth every day in it's flat little journey somehow suspended above the earth.

You might say something about "Snell's law" (which seems to be some kind of magic elixir for your, as it is invoked with little explanation as to why, whenever you can't think of a good argument--that, and "Rowbotham"--You, Snell, and Rowbotham need to have an imaginary party together).  And yet, if you search for photos from random people (e.g. on Flicker), you will see the same eclipse at the same GMT, but in vastly different places in the sky and local times from around the world.  Maine may see it close to the horizon at 4:00 am, while Hawaii sees it directly above at midnight (same GMT...I don't know offhand what timezone Hawaii is in).  And trust me, as a photo buff I see photos of every major eclipse solar and lunar, taken from all over the world where it was visible.  No, actually don't trust me, investigate for yourself (but turn your brain on first).  It will shatter your "Snell's Law explains all the nonsense" myth.
Look you ugly son of a bitch, making up observations and unfounded suppositions is exactly what the Flat Earth Society is about.

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bubbles

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Re: WHY DO WE ALWAYS SEE THE SAME FACE OF THE MOON
« Reply #15 on: October 09, 2007, 09:10:10 PM »
We see the same face of the moon because, like the sun, the moon's light is also limited to a spotlight.

Again, I must ask: are you suggesting the moon is self-luminous?
Look you ugly son of a bitch, making up observations and unfounded suppositions is exactly what the Flat Earth Society is about.

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Brennan

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Re: WHY DO WE ALWAYS SEE THE SAME FACE OF THE MOON
« Reply #16 on: October 10, 2007, 02:39:17 AM »
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TB you disappoint me. I was one of the people who pointed out to you that this was a load of bollocks last week. The total angle of refraction is dependant purely upon the total change in density and is nothing to do with the distance over which the change occurs.

If the angle of light changes at the upper strata, that angular change will become significant through its path over tens of thousands of miles of atmosphere. The ray of light will continue to diverge from the norm, separating downwards with time and distance. It takes no leap of the mind to see that even a small change in the angle of light can cause a large effect over a distance.
What angle of change has occurred 'over several miles' to produce that image? Answer: a small one. The apparent position of that berg is never going to be more than a few degrees away from it's actual position regardless of how much air it has passed through. This cannot be used to explain the position of the moon. Idiot.
Quote from: Tom Bishop
tell me how your model explains why deep-dripping Russian geologists found an impenetrable layer of turtle shell when attempting to breach the crust of the earth.