Homosexuality

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Wakka Wakka

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Homosexuality
« on: September 26, 2007, 04:46:12 PM »
I really don't get it at all.  Most churchs do not allow gay marriage because they say that the bible renounds it and say it's a sin.  True there are verses that say gay marriage is wrong but there are other verses that say eating shrimp is wrong, wearing two types of cloth at the same time is wrong, not to mention it says love your neighboor as yourself not love your straight neighboor as yourself.  1 John says "and he is a propiation for our sins, but not for just our sins but for the sins of the whole world."  i guess most people tend to ignore these.
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Mars

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Re: Homosexuality
« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2007, 04:47:47 PM »
Contradictions?  In the bible?  Who knew.  =P

I don't think you should take everything in there literally though.

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Raist

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Re: Homosexuality
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2007, 04:52:19 PM »
Contradictions?  In the bible?  Who knew.  =P

I don't think you should take everything in there literally though.

Except he didn't list a contradiction.

It says love them, not allow them to sin in any way they choose.

I agree there are tons of contradictions, but it's fairly straightforward about gays.


Also the shrimp thing, was to protect people from shellfish/bottomfeeder fish that carry disease.
Ever eat a bunch of clams and spent the night throwing up? Jews didn't.

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beast

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Re: Homosexuality
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2007, 05:59:55 PM »
Were that true, we would have seen all the people from the area not eating shrimp, or we would have seen the people who did eat the shrimp having higher rates of mortality.  Actually the Ancient Egyptians, Persians, Romans, Greeks etc. managed to do quite well while still eating seafood.  And indeed Christianity only spread when it was adopted by the Romans and Judaism was never as powerful as those civilisations. 

The bible makes a number of quotes about free will, and how God gave us free will so that we are free to choose him or not.  Right from the book of genesis, free will is a strong theme in both testaments.  Seems strange that God gave us the choice to sin or not, but many Christians would prefer to take away that free will and force us to follow God's will regardless of how we feel about God, or even if he exists or not.

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Raist

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Re: Homosexuality
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2007, 06:18:48 PM »
Were that true, we would have seen all the people from the area not eating shrimp, or we would have seen the people who did eat the shrimp having higher rates of mortality.  Actually the Ancient Egyptians, Persians, Romans, Greeks etc. managed to do quite well while still eating seafood.  And indeed Christianity only spread when it was adopted by the Romans and Judaism was never as powerful as those civilisations. 

The bible makes a number of quotes about free will, and how God gave us free will so that we are free to choose him or not.  Right from the book of genesis, free will is a strong theme in both testaments.  Seems strange that God gave us the choice to sin or not, but many Christians would prefer to take away that free will and force us to follow God's will regardless of how we feel about God, or even if he exists or not.

Why would noone eat shrimp because God said don't eat it to the Jews? Also shrimp aren't that bad, the bible made a generalization to simplify things.

Also having a high mortality rate does not make a country less successful.

All of your arguments are based on things you assume. I really am getting sick of this. Please use some common sense.

And as to the free will thing, if he put us here, and then controlled us then sent us to heaven, what would the point of Earth be?

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divito the truthist

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Re: Homosexuality
« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2007, 06:32:11 PM »
And as to the free will thing, if he put us here, and then controlled us then sent us to heaven, what would the point of Earth be?

Hobby?
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Raist

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Re: Homosexuality
« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2007, 06:32:47 PM »
And as to the free will thing, if he put us here, and then controlled us then sent us to heaven, what would the point of Earth be?

Hobby?
And if we didn't have free will how fun would that hobby be?

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Nomad

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Re: Homosexuality
« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2007, 06:57:35 PM »
And as to the free will thing, if he put us here, and then controlled us then sent us to heaven, what would the point of Earth be?

Hobby?
And if we didn't have free will how fun would that hobby be?

I think you misinterpret Divito's response.  I think he's referring to it being God's hobby to move us around as pawns.  Easiest example is The Sims.  :P
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beast

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Re: Homosexuality
« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2007, 06:59:52 PM »

Why would noone eat shrimp because God said don't eat it to the Jews? Also shrimp aren't that bad, the bible made a generalization to simplify things.

Also having a high mortality rate does not make a country less successful.

All of your arguments are based on things you assume. I really am getting sick of this. Please use some common sense.

What am I assuming?  The ban on seafood in the bible is purely a religious teaching, it had no positive effect, apart from the positive effects that belonging to groups have.  Everybody ate seafood apart from people whose religion banned it, and there are no clear differences to suggest that the ban made any difference to people's lives.  The claim that it was banned for health reasons is false. 

Quote
And as to the free will thing, if he put us here, and then controlled us then sent us to heaven, what would the point of Earth be?

I'm sorry, you've clearly misunderstood.  My point was that free will is such a strong part of Christianity, and therefore attempts to ban homosexuality are against the teachings of the bible.  You said;

Quote
It says love them, not allow them to sin in any way they choose.

But actually the Bible clearly says that God did give us the right to sin in whatever way we choose, and if we choose to sin, we won't go to heaven.  That message can be found in both testaments, starting with the story of Adam and Eve.



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divito the truthist

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Re: Homosexuality
« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2007, 07:02:08 PM »
I think you misinterpret Divito's response.  I think he's referring to it being God's hobby to move us around as pawns.  Easiest example is The Sims.  :P

That's what my next post was going to be :D
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[][][]

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Re: Homosexuality
« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2007, 07:05:34 PM »
You are completely misrepresenting the Bible, the "message of free will" taught in the Bible is just that, it is based on the way you understand and interpret the Bible stories (you cited Adam and Eve). The Bible itself states clearly that homosexuality is wrong and that they need to be killed (Lev.20:13), that is the only way a true Christian can feel about homosexuality. What you think the Bible implies is one thing, but what it actually says is what matters.

Also: I would like to point out that God created a man and women in Paradise; He did not make a homosexual partner for Adam. From the beginning of the human race (as described in the Bible) homosexuality was not a choice.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2007, 07:12:47 PM by The Dedicated Theist »
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Wakka Wakka

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Re: Homosexuality
« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2007, 07:33:12 PM »
True but in Corinthians it says that if a women prays in church without a veil or hat on her hair should be shaved off.  My point is that most churchs tend to cherry pick verses from the bible, like the one against homosexuality, but tend to leave ones like the one above alone.  I think, and this is just me, you either have to take all the bible and all of its verses as fact or you have to think of it as a metophor which I do.  I don't think it is right to have both.
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[][][]

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Re: Homosexuality
« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2007, 07:34:58 PM »
True but in Corinthians it says that if a women prays in church without a veil or hat on her hair should be shaved off.  My point is that most churchs tend to cherry pick verses from the bible, like the one against homosexuality, but tend to leave ones like the one above alone.  I think, and this is just me, you either have to take all the bible and all of its verses as fact or you have to think of it as a metophor which I do.  I don't think it is right to have both.

I agree, the Bible needs to be followed in its entirety.
The folly of mistaking a paradox for a discovery, a metaphor for a proof, a torrent of verbiage for a spring of capital truths, and oneself for an oracle, is inborn in us. -Some Frenchy

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Wakka Wakka

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Re: Homosexuality
« Reply #13 on: September 26, 2007, 08:04:45 PM »
So the Bible must be taken literally?  So you believe the earth is around 10,000 years old, because if you trace the bible back you get the creation somewhere around there.  Also in Genesis it says that God flooded the earth and only Noah and 7 others and teh animals he brought on the ark survived.  No one else.  Then in Leviticus it says that incest(having sex with family members) is sinful and punishable by death, but I thought we are all one family?  How is this possible?  Also the bible can't even tell us how humans where created.  It first says that God made man and women together then in Chapter 2 it says he made Adam then Eve.  I'm not trying to convert people or anything but I think to take the bible literally is absurd.
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Re: Homosexuality
« Reply #14 on: September 26, 2007, 08:08:25 PM »
So the Bible must be taken literally?  So you believe the earth is around 10,000 years old, because if you trace the bible back you get the creation somewhere around there.  Also in Genesis it says that God flooded the earth and only Noah and 7 others and teh animals he brought on the ark survived.  No one else.  Then in Leviticus it says that incest(having sex with family members) is sinful and punishable by death, but I thought we are all one family?  How is this possible?  Also the bible can't even tell us how humans where created.  It first says that God made man and women together then in Chapter 2 it says he made Adam then Eve.  I'm not trying to convert people or anything but I think to take the bible literally is absurd.

All of those things are true, I try to follow the Bible to the letter. But, in the context of the Bible the family members were immediate family members e.g. brother, sister, father. Nowhere does it mention the genetics of the human race.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2007, 08:16:04 PM by The Dedicated Theist »
The folly of mistaking a paradox for a discovery, a metaphor for a proof, a torrent of verbiage for a spring of capital truths, and oneself for an oracle, is inborn in us. -Some Frenchy

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beast

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Re: Homosexuality
« Reply #15 on: September 26, 2007, 08:10:22 PM »
Doesn't Jesus say; "he who hath not sinned cast the first stone?"  Doesn't Jesus say; "Turn the other cheek?"  The New testament is about forgiveness.  Jesus died to forgive people their sins.  Or does that only apply to some sins and not others?  Where does it say which sins are forgiven and which ones aren't?  Where does it say you should force people to follow the teachings of Jesus?

Incidentally, the story about the woman getting stoned for adultery pre-dates Christianity and was added into the Bible, that event presumably never actually happened with Jesus, so maybe that's why the Dedicated Theist is dismissing it.

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Re: Homosexuality
« Reply #16 on: September 26, 2007, 08:14:13 PM »
Doesn't Jesus say; "he who hath not sinned cast the first stone?"  Doesn't Jesus say; "Turn the other cheek?"  The New testament is about forgiveness.  Jesus died to forgive people their sins.  Or does that only apply to some sins and not others?  Where does it say which sins are forgiven and which ones aren't?  Where does it say you should force people to follow the teachings of Jesus?

Incidentally, the story about the woman getting stoned for adultery pre-dates Christianity and was added into the Bible, that event presumably never actually happened with Jesus, so maybe that's why the Dedicated Theist is dismissing it.

You are exactly right, forgiveness does not apply to homosexuality. The Bible says explicitly they must be killed, so the Bible leaves no room for repentence for them. It is the unpardonable sin. Also, I am not forcing anyone to do anything.
The folly of mistaking a paradox for a discovery, a metaphor for a proof, a torrent of verbiage for a spring of capital truths, and oneself for an oracle, is inborn in us. -Some Frenchy

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Mars

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Re: Homosexuality
« Reply #17 on: September 26, 2007, 08:36:45 PM »
God only forgives the sins the authors were fond of.  You can still kill the homosexuals for an inborn attraction towards the opposite sex.  What about working on sundays?  Don't forget that now.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2007, 08:38:40 PM by Mars »

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Nomad

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Re: Homosexuality
« Reply #18 on: September 26, 2007, 08:52:01 PM »
I wouldn't mind stoning some fortune tellers.  Worst five bucks I ever spent.
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beast

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Re: Homosexuality
« Reply #19 on: September 26, 2007, 10:44:42 PM »
So the Bible says; "Thou shall not kill" but in reality the 10 commandments only apply in some circumstances; there are times when it's not a sin to break them?  Where does it say this in the bible?

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Re: Homosexuality
« Reply #20 on: September 27, 2007, 05:19:34 AM »
So the Bible says; "Thou shall not kill" but in reality the 10 commandments only apply in some circumstances; there are times when it's not a sin to break them?  Where does it say this in the bible?

Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live. Exodus 22:18

If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. -- Lev.20:13


These are two instances, also Kings 10:18-27,  Numbers 15:32-36, Judges 14:19, all instances where it is not a sin to kill. I am sure there are many others that I can't name at this moment.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2007, 05:26:39 AM by The Dedicated Theist »
The folly of mistaking a paradox for a discovery, a metaphor for a proof, a torrent of verbiage for a spring of capital truths, and oneself for an oracle, is inborn in us. -Some Frenchy

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Raist

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Re: Homosexuality
« Reply #21 on: September 27, 2007, 05:29:28 AM »
So the Bible says; "Thou shall not kill" but in reality the 10 commandments only apply in some circumstances; there are times when it's not a sin to break them?  Where does it say this in the bible?

No, the real translation is closer to thou shalt not murder.

There are circumstances where killing is fine. Unjustified killing though is not.

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beast

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Re: Homosexuality
« Reply #22 on: September 27, 2007, 06:04:53 AM »
Quote
If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:

Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;

And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.

And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

Deuteronomy 21:18-21

Pictures;




It's great to know just how moral, loving and peaceful Christians are, that they support the stoning to death of their own children if they do not do what their parents say.  I presume that Raist and The Dedicated Theist fully support the stoning to death of rebellious children, given their comments in this topic.  Great work guys, you've clearly demonstrated how barbaric Christianity really is.

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beast

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Re: Homosexuality
« Reply #23 on: September 27, 2007, 06:11:36 AM »
So the Bible says; "Thou shall not kill" but in reality the 10 commandments only apply in some circumstances; there are times when it's not a sin to break them?  Where does it say this in the bible?

Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live. Exodus 22:18

If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. -- Lev.20:13


These are two instances, also Kings 10:18-27,  Numbers 15:32-36, Judges 14:19, all instances where it is not a sin to kill. I am sure there are many others that I can't name at this moment.

I take it you don't eat pork then since;

 Leviticus 11:7-8 reads;

'Regard the pig as unclean, for though has a cloven hoof, it does not chew the cud.'

'Do not eat their meat or touch their dead bodies. You will regard them as unclean.'

Or are there some parts of Leviticus that you don't have to follow any more?

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[][][]

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Re: Homosexuality
« Reply #24 on: September 27, 2007, 08:54:35 AM »
So the Bible says; "Thou shall not kill" but in reality the 10 commandments only apply in some circumstances; there are times when it's not a sin to break them?  Where does it say this in the bible?

Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live. Exodus 22:18

If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. -- Lev.20:13


These are two instances, also Kings 10:18-27,  Numbers 15:32-36, Judges 14:19, all instances where it is not a sin to kill. I am sure there are many others that I can't name at this moment.

I take it you don't eat pork then since;

 Leviticus 11:7-8 reads;

'Regard the pig as unclean, for though has a cloven hoof, it does not chew the cud.'

'Do not eat their meat or touch their dead bodies. You will regard them as unclean.'

Or are there some parts of Leviticus that you don't have to follow any more?

That is why I don't eat pork. If you follow the Bible, you live by all parts, inluding Leviticus. Yes, that includes not wearing garments made from both wool and linen (Lev 19:19).
The folly of mistaking a paradox for a discovery, a metaphor for a proof, a torrent of verbiage for a spring of capital truths, and oneself for an oracle, is inborn in us. -Some Frenchy

Re: Homosexuality
« Reply #25 on: September 27, 2007, 11:28:29 AM »
So the Bible says; "Thou shall not kill" but in reality the 10 commandments only apply in some circumstances; there are times when it's not a sin to break them?  Where does it say this in the bible?

Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live. Exodus 22:18

If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. -- Lev.20:13


These are two instances, also Kings 10:18-27,  Numbers 15:32-36, Judges 14:19, all instances where it is not a sin to kill. I am sure there are many others that I can't name at this moment.

I take it you don't eat pork then since;

 Leviticus 11:7-8 reads;

'Regard the pig as unclean, for though has a cloven hoof, it does not chew the cud.'

'Do not eat their meat or touch their dead bodies. You will regard them as unclean.'

Or are there some parts of Leviticus that you don't have to follow any more?

Leviticus is directed to God's chosen people or Israel.  These rules do not apply to Christians or Jews or anyone else.
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Chris Spaghetti

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Re: Homosexuality
« Reply #26 on: September 27, 2007, 11:40:34 AM »
love the sinner, hate the sin

Re: Homosexuality
« Reply #27 on: September 27, 2007, 11:45:29 AM »
love the sinner, hate the sin

Love the rapist that is violating you, hate the molestation itself.
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Midnight

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Re: Homosexuality
« Reply #28 on: September 27, 2007, 12:45:12 PM »
Quote
If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:

Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;

And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.

And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

Deuteronomy 21:18-21

Pictures;




It's great to know just how moral, loving and peaceful Christians are, that they support the stoning to death of their own children if they do not do what their parents say.  I presume that Raist and The Dedicated Theist fully support the stoning to death of rebellious children, given their comments in this topic.  Great work guys, you've clearly demonstrated how barbaric Christianity really is.

One thing I find hilarious about that argument is that people are leaving out it took place in the Old Testament, and modern christianity focuses on the NT. In the NT, this action is not taken. Of course, it also is mishmashed with moral godhood and pop culture, salting it to taste, but whatever the fuck.

In the end, everyone is lying, so it doesn't matter.
My problem with his ideas is that it is a ridiculous thing.

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Chris Spaghetti

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Re: Homosexuality
« Reply #29 on: September 27, 2007, 12:57:03 PM »
love the sinner, hate the sin

Love the rapist that is violating you, hate the molestation itself.

That's what Christianity teaches,nobody said it was easy, nobody said it would be this hard, oh take me back to the start...


sorry, you were saying?