Democracy?

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joffenz

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Democracy?
« on: April 20, 2006, 01:35:29 PM »
"Democracy is the worst form of Government except all those others that have been tried from time to time. " - Winston Churchill

"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter. " - Winston Churchill

To me, these two statements sum up democracy. If a random hobo turned up on your door you probably wouldn't let him in, but you'd let have a say in who runs the country.

Despite that, democracy is better than the other governments as the rulers will inevitably become corrupt.


As a socialist I feel I should comment on the issue of Democracy within a Marxist system. The literal meaning of democracy is "the people rule". To an extent you could consider Marxist systems extreme forms of democracy. A common complaint leveleed against communist systems is that they don't have democracy, this is false: they simply aren't communist. Any communist or socialist system that does not use democracy is just another form of capitalism.

However in a socialist state democracy is rather different from the kind of democracy used in a capitalist state, which I only support because it's better than the other capitalist systems.

So I think Churchill was right, Democracy is better than the other systems of government that have been tried, as proper Marxism has never been tried. Democracy is of course the best system for a capitalist state. It's only a half-hearted step towards people ruling, but it's better than totalitarianism.


Thoughts?

marxism is crime
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2006, 02:05:33 PM »
the communists killed more than 100 million people and they turned russia into an oily scapheap .

Sorry mate, marxism is rubbish
ermany is the center of the flat earth .

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joffenz

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Re: marxism is crime
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2006, 02:20:35 PM »
Quote from: "Hamburger"
the communists killed more than 100 million people and they turned russia into an oily scapheap .

Sorry mate, marxism is rubbish


Er...what? Soviet Russia was never Marxist, it was always Stalinist. There's quite a large difference between the two.

*edit* Also, 100 million people? Which communists exactly killed 100 million people!?

Democracy?
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2006, 02:32:57 PM »
Yeah, 100 million people?  I think you made that up... but sometimes I'm wrong.
ooyakasha!

visit Europe
« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2006, 02:33:43 PM »
and talk to the people .

It does not make any sense to make a difference between marxism, bolchewism , stalinism and so on, only ideologists do that , at the end of the day , bolchewism , invented by Lenin was the origin of terror . Marx himself, dependent on Engel`s donation was an illogic fool , trying to operate against the bourgeosie in order to bring other minorities to power . ( a quasi religious ideology , promissing the heaven on earth ).

Oswald Spengler has prooven Marx and his "Ideas" wrong, unfortunatly Spengler was not well known .

No society is based on "equality " .
ermany is the center of the flat earth .

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joffenz

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Re: visit Europe
« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2006, 03:04:17 PM »
Quote from: "Hamburger"
It does not make any sense to make a difference between marxism, bolchewism , stalinism and so on, only ideologists do that


Yes, it does because Stalinism is a completely different system:Stalinism is not communist at all.

The huge difference between them is that Marxism does not actually have a government whereas Stalinism puts the goverment in total control. Rather a big difference if you ask me.

Furthermore in Stalisism there is no democracy and the government is better off than the people, both of those are very strong reasons not to consider Stalinism a form of communism.

Quote from: "Hamburger"

at the end of the day , bolchewism , invented by Lenin was the origin of terror . Marx himself, dependent on Engel`s donation was an illogic fool , trying to operate against the bourgeosie in order to bring other minorities to power . ( a quasi religious ideology , promissing the heaven on earth ).


Don't really understand you there...could you make that a bit clearer?

Quote from: "Hamburger"
No society is based on "equality " .


Apart from any Marxist society.

Democracy?
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2006, 11:30:10 PM »
Lenin was trying to revolt against the Czars so he changed Marxism from being Democratic and wonderful to being oppressive and cruel.  This gave a bad name to Communism, which is why so many people call communism stupid and crazy.


And uh, stalin killed roughly 20 million :(

Democracy?
« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2006, 12:30:22 AM »
First of all, Stalin and his methods did not make Russia an "oily scrapheap" it was acutally the only reason that the USSR got industrialized and became a world power.  Not arguing that Stalins methods were not cruel, but they are definatly the most effective thing ever.

And personally I think the only type of government that can ever work is a strict totalitarian regime.  The only way to keep the state and people under control is through control.  This however puts a great amount of power in one mans hands.

It has been said that power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutly, I however disagree with this statement because i think the persuit of power is what corrupts, and if you are brought into total power than there is no persuit.

the 100 million people is about right btw.

Stalin: lower estimate is in the 30 millions, with higher ranging into the 40-50 millions*
Mao: lower estimantes in the upper 50, lower 60 millions*
All others: would make up whatever is left

*involves other peoples estimates, only remembered as I recently did a term paper on Stalin
he man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed.

Advocatus Diaboli

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Erasmus

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Democracy?
« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2006, 08:57:23 AM »
Quote from: "CrimsonKing"
And personally I think the only type of government that can ever work is a strict totalitarian regime.  The only way to keep the state and people under control is through control.


Maybe we disagree on what it means for a government to "work", or why "keeping the people under control" is a thing we want in our political system, but I would have to describe these statements as being totally without virtue.
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

Democracy?
« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2006, 09:54:03 AM »
Everyone on my father's side is Russian. Communism owns.
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Democracy?
« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2006, 10:42:47 AM »
I think we do, as I consider the mob mentality to be very prevalent when politics are involved, so I tend to think of people, in a general sense as large dumb animals, specifically when the mob mentality is concerned.  So the way a government could work is quite simple being able to stop foreign and domestic threats quickly and save its own people
he man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed.

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Erasmus

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Democracy?
« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2006, 01:28:25 PM »
Quote from: "General Dallows"
Everyone on my father's side is Russian.


Does everyone on your father's side agree that

Quote
Communism owns.


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Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

Democracy?
« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2006, 01:54:25 PM »
Pretty much.
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Erasmus

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Democracy?
« Reply #13 on: July 08, 2006, 03:39:11 PM »
Quote from: "General Dallows"
Pretty much.


Did they live under the Soviet regime?  Do they think that their countrymen who took part in the putsch and subsequent exodus were crazy?
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

Re: Democracy?
« Reply #14 on: July 08, 2006, 04:00:24 PM »
Quote from: "cheesejoff"
"Democracy is the worst form of Government except all those others that have been tried from time to time. " - Winston Churchill

"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter. " - Winston Churchill

To me, these two statements sum up democracy. If a random hobo turned up on your door you probably wouldn't let him in, but you'd let have a say in who runs the country.

Despite that, democracy is better than the other governments as the rulers will inevitably become corrupt.


As a socialist I feel I should comment on the issue of Democracy within a Marxist system. The literal meaning of democracy is "the people rule". To an extent you could consider Marxist systems extreme forms of democracy. A common complaint leveleed against communist systems is that they don't have democracy, this is false: they simply aren't communist. Any communist or socialist system that does not use democracy is just another form of capitalism.

However in a socialist state democracy is rather different from the kind of democracy used in a capitalist state, which I only support because it's better than the other capitalist systems.

So I think Churchill was right, Democracy is better than the other systems of government that have been tried, as proper Marxism has never been tried. Democracy is of course the best system for a capitalist state. It's only a half-hearted step towards people ruling, but it's better than totalitarianism.


Thoughts?


I agree with your thoughts even though I am not a socialist.  I believe in the Republic as the great men of the history of America saw it.  They believed, if I so remember correctly, that democracy was no better than tyranny.  

I, also, share this belief.
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Democracy?
« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2006, 04:20:11 AM »
Quote
Did they live under the Soviet regime?


Yup. Pretty much all males on my father's side were with government or military.
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In Soviet Russia, Penguin makes You!

Democracy?
« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2006, 10:10:45 AM »
That might have something to do with it, the government and military people were treated much better than the civilian workers and farmers and such
he man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed.

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Cinlef

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Democracy?
« Reply #17 on: July 11, 2006, 04:50:36 PM »
Quote from: "CrimsonKing"

And personally I think the only type of government that can ever work is a strict totalitarian regime.  The only way to keep the state and people under control is through control.  

If you like I'd be happy to help you pay for a one way ticket to North Korea.
You can enjoy life in an toltalatarian regime to your hearts content. I pefrer Canadas parliementary democracy for all its falws to any other system that exists or has ever existed on earth.
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Democracy?
« Reply #18 on: July 12, 2006, 11:04:41 AM »
Cinlef, while I understand the point youre trying to make, I also pointed out that it has to be a benevolant totalitarian leader, as in one who doesnt STARVE his own people, or KILL them with no real reason... you know, basically not a psycopath
he man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed.

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6strings

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Democracy?
« Reply #19 on: July 12, 2006, 11:25:25 AM »
The kind of people that establish totalitarian regimes are generally, by definition, not the happy well-adjusted people you want running a country.

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Cinlef

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Democracy?
« Reply #20 on: July 12, 2006, 05:17:36 PM »
6strings is right.
See for example Animal Farm for an excellent allegory of why revolutions go bad
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Cinlef
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I've said it before and I'll say it again, Cinlef is the bestest!

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qwe

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Democracy?
« Reply #21 on: July 12, 2006, 05:21:22 PM »
Quote from: "6strings"
The kind of people that establish totalitarian regimes are generally, by definition, not the happy well-adjusted people you want running a country.

what about the kind of people that have the means to run for office?

Democracy?
« Reply #22 on: July 12, 2006, 07:44:58 PM »
Cinlef...

That is an AWESOME book.
he man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed.

Advocatus Diaboli

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6strings

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Democracy?
« Reply #23 on: July 12, 2006, 08:33:43 PM »
Quote
what about the kind of people that have the means to run for office?

A few points on that:
1) I live in Canada, and given that Jack Layton of the NDP, who seems to only own one suit and no car, was running in the last election, and won 29 seats, I idsagree with your entire premise; nameley that one needs a substantial amount of money to run for office.

2)Even accepting your intial premise, there are no personality qualifications for being born rich.

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CJ

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Re: Democracy?
« Reply #24 on: August 19, 2020, 04:53:55 PM »
"Democracy is the worst form of Government except all those others that have been tried from time to time. " - Winston Churchill

"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter. " - Winston Churchill

To me, these two statements sum up democracy. If a random hobo turned up on your door you probably wouldn't let him in, but you'd let have a say in who runs the country.

Despite that, democracy is better than the other governments as the rulers will inevitably become corrupt.


As a socialist I feel I should comment on the issue of Democracy within a Marxist system. The literal meaning of democracy is "the people rule". To an extent you could consider Marxist systems extreme forms of democracy. A common complaint leveleed against communist systems is that they don't have democracy, this is false: they simply aren't communist. Any communist or socialist system that does not use democracy is just another form of capitalism.

However in a socialist state democracy is rather different from the kind of democracy used in a capitalist state, which I only support because it's better than the other capitalist systems.

So I think Churchill was right, Democracy is better than the other systems of government that have been tried, as proper Marxism has never been tried. Democracy is of course the best system for a capitalist state. It's only a half-hearted step towards people ruling, but it's better than totalitarianism.


Thoughts?

I think that a republic is better than democracy.  People seem to forget that the U.S. is not a democracy, but a constitutional republic.  The democrats have clouded this and are trying to destroy the constitution.

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Democracy?
« Reply #25 on: August 19, 2020, 05:07:13 PM »
Learn how to quote, n00b.

Also, stop with the dumb shit.
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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Stash

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Re: Democracy?
« Reply #26 on: August 19, 2020, 05:12:48 PM »
Wow, necro'ing a 14 year old post. Haven't seen that before.

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CJ

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Re: marxism is crime
« Reply #27 on: August 19, 2020, 05:55:33 PM »
Quote from: Hamburger
the communists killed more than 100 million people and they turned russia into an oily scapheap .

Sorry mate, marxism is rubbish

Er...what? Soviet Russia was never Marxist, it was always Stalinist. There's quite a large difference between the two.

*edit* Also, 100 million people? Which communists exactly killed 100 million people!?

There were over 35 million Russians killed because of communism.  Stalin was a communist.  20 million Russians were died in labor camps and another 15 million or more were mass executions.  In China, as much as 70 million people were killed.  This all just happened in my parents and grandparents lifetime!  This is not including everyone in Cuba and Venezuela and every other country that has tried it!  And people want to do it again!!! 

Re: marxism is crime
« Reply #28 on: August 19, 2020, 05:56:41 PM »
Quote from: Hamburger
the communists killed more than 100 million people and they turned russia into an oily scapheap .

Sorry mate, marxism is rubbish

Er...what? Soviet Russia was never Marxist, it was always Stalinist. There's quite a large difference between the two.

*edit* Also, 100 million people? Which communists exactly killed 100 million people!?

There were over 35 million Russians killed because of communism.  Stalin was a communist.  20 million Russians were died in labor camps and another 15 million or more were mass executions.  In China, as much as 70 million people were killed.  This all just happened in my parents and grandparents lifetime!  This is not including everyone in Cuba and Venezuela and every other country that has tried it!  And people want to do it again!!!

Are you alright?