Proof that the earth is NOT FLAT

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Mac26

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Proof that the earth is NOT FLAT
« on: September 21, 2007, 11:08:49 AM »
According to your map of your FAQ I tried to find out the distance between Santiago, Chile and Auckland, New Zealand:



As you can see, I have stretched the map and metered first the distance in pixels of the radius. The result was 302 pixels what equals to 12450 miles (as in your FAQ the diameter is 24900 miles) - sorry on the picture i wrote "1245 miles", what should be "12450 miles".

Then i metered the distance between Santiago, Chile and Auckland, New Zealand, which was 372 pixels. 372 pixels equals 15301 miles in the "real" flat world.

There is a small error of measurement since it's not possible to strech the map such that the perspective is matched 100%, but the "real" distance should not be too different from 15301 miles. Probably something between 14000 and 16000 miles.

BUT, in the real (round) World the distance between Santiago, Chile and Auckland, New Zealand is only 5999 miles. If you don't believe this, you can verify it yourself by taking a flight from Santiago, Chile to Auckland, New Zealand.

The following flight plan was found on expedia:


As you can see it takes only 13:10 hours to fly. 13:10 hours for 15301 miles would be an average speed of 1162 miles per hour what is impossible for a Airbus A340 that flys only with a maximum of 557 or 564 mph (Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbus_A340).

As a conclusion it's not possible to transform a round earth to a flat earth without altering distances, or in other words: The earth must be round or there's some magic what let's the Airbus A340 flying faster than his max. speed. :-)

q.e.d

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Proof that the earth is NOT FLAT
« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2007, 11:12:05 AM »
Southern Hemisphere Flight Times

Flight Hops
The vast majority of flights between the two extremities of the world don't travel between New Zealand and South America directly, but make a bunch of little hops along the continents, picking up and dropping off passengers along the way. Like international shipping, the post office doesn't charter a direct flight just for one parcel of mail. The post office puts it on a flight that makes dozens upon dozens of little hops along the continents of the world, picking up and dropping off mail by the ton, distributing to major regional centers. It is vastly cheaper for the airline company and post offices to operate in this fashion.

With this considered, judging the flight time between two areas would be close to impossible unless you could find a non-stop flight between two distant areas on the Flat Earth.

Jet Streams
For the rare flight that does occur between those two extremities of the earth; along the courses of international flights between points in the Southern Hemisphere exist enormous jet streams located at around 35,000 ft above the surface of the Earth. In the Southern Hemisphere there are both eastward and westward jet streams. By necessity, in relation to the polar front and subtropical jets, easterly jet streams in the Southern Hemisphere propagate at rates even faster than the westward ones. The winds in a jet stream regularly reaches speeds of over 400 miles per hour. Airliners use these jet streams to faster reach a destination.

Here's a reference from Cubanology.com:

    "The Jet Stream is an amazing phenomenon of wind current which twirls around our planet, capturing and changing anything in its path. These giant, so-called "river" of winds can be several hundred miles wide, 1 to 2 miles in depth and can be found from as low as 12,000 to as high as 80,000 feet above the surface of the Earth and regularly reach the speeds of 400 miles an hour."

This variable contributes significantly to the travel time between Argentina and New Zealand. While an airplane may have a rated cruise speed it can provide under its own power, the extreme winds of the jet stream adds enormously to the actual velocity of the plane over the surface of the Earth.

For every moment the plane stays in the jet stream it is being accelerated until it matches the surrounding velocity and momentum of the air around it. From there the plane can use the limits of its power to travel faster than the jet stream. Thus, six hours of travel time between Argentina and New Zealand becomes extremely possible.

In general, the Flat Earth Society has found that winds are strongest just under the tropopause. If two air masses of different temperatures meet, the resulting pressure difference (which causes winds in FET) is highest along the interface.

These facts are a consequence of the thermal wind relation. The balance of forces on an atmospheric parcel in the vertical direction is primarily between the pressure gradient and the force of gravitation by acceleration is a balance referred to as hydrostatic. In the horizontal, the dominant balance outside of the tropics is between the Coriolis effect and the pressure gradient is a balance referred to as geostrophic.

Given both hydrostatic and geostrophic balance, the Flat Earth Society derives the thermal wind relation: the vertical derivative of the horizontal wind is proportional to the horizontal temperature gradient. The sense of the relation is such that temperatures decreasing polewards implies that winds develop a larger eastward component as one moves upwards. Therefore, the strong eastward moving jet streams are in part a simple consequence of the fact that the equator is warmer than the poles.

Flight Delays
One additional variable we must consider; if you've ever been to a major airport you would know that it seems as if every other flight is delayed. A flight rarely arrives at its estimated time. Most people with experience in air travel, who've been on international flights, can attest to the extreme delays of flight arrivals. If we search for "flight was delayed" on Google we get millions of hits. Reading the direct personal testaments, excluding mechanical failures and bomb threats, we can see that it's not uncommon for flights to be delayed on the range of hours.

Airports may blame the cause to wind conditions, but it is very possible that the maps themselves are inaccurate, especially in the Southern Hemisphere, since they are based on the supposition of a Round Earth.

Just because LAN.com or a travel agent company may measure distances on a Round Earth map and estimate that a flight might take 6 hours, it doesn't mean that it will. Observational and personal evidence will be necessary to back any flight time claims between extremities of the Flat Earth. If there were any complaints due to travel time, the customer relations person at Delta would hardly be in a position to redraw a map and change the shape of the earth. There would be nothing the Delta agent could do, other than blame any delay on wind or weather conditions.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2007, 11:23:27 AM by Tom Bishop »

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emailking

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Re: Proof that the earth is NOT FLAT
« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2007, 11:18:23 AM »
Tom is that you in your picture?

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Mac26

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Re: Proof that the earth is NOT FLAT
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2007, 11:25:47 AM »
Tom this IS A DIRECT NON-STOP FLIGHT
and the distance is 5999 miles, jet streams does not affect the distance that is metered by the plane.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2007, 11:28:19 AM by Mac26 »

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Gulliver

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Re: Proof that the earth is NOT FLAT
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2007, 11:37:18 AM »
According to your map of your FAQ I tried to find out the distance between Santiago, Chile and Auckland, New Zealand:



As you can see, I have stretched the map and metered first the distance in pixels of the radius. The result was 302 pixels what equals to 12450 miles (as in your FAQ the diameter is 24900 miles) - sorry on the picture i wrote "1245 miles", what should be "12450 miles".

Then i metered the distance between Santiago, Chile and Auckland, New Zealand, which was 372 pixels. 372 pixels equals 15301 miles in the "real" flat world.

There is a small error of measurement since it's not possible to strech the map such that the perspective is matched 100%, but the "real" distance should not be too different from 15301 miles. Probably something between 14000 and 16000 miles.

BUT, in the real (round) World the distance between Santiago, Chile and Auckland, New Zealand is only 5999 miles. If you don't believe this, you can verify it yourself by taking a flight from Santiago, Chile to Auckland, New Zealand.

The following flight plan was found on expedia:


As you can see it takes only 13:10 hours to fly. 13:10 hours for 15301 miles would be an average speed of 1162 miles per hour what is impossible for a Airbus A340 that flys only with a maximum of 557 or 564 mph (Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbus_A340).

As a conclusion it's not possible to transform a round earth to a flat earth without altering distances, or in other words: The earth must be round or there's some magic what let's the Airbus A340 flying faster than his max. speed. :-)

q.e.d
Please read The RE Primer. It has a well-documented experiment #0026 that is almost exactly your challenge. We can save you time.

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Gulliver

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Re: Proof that the earth is NOT FLAT
« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2007, 11:43:00 AM »
Tom is that you in your picture?
Yep. We've even followed TomB to his place of work and place of worship.

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emailking

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Re: Proof that the earth is NOT FLAT
« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2007, 11:49:09 AM »
Haha. That's even more sad. I picture him a confused young adult. But nah he's an old dude. I guess that's why he can't be convinced of anything either.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Proof that the earth is NOT FLAT
« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2007, 11:52:15 AM »
Quote
Tom this IS A DIRECT NON-STOP FLIGHT
and the distance is 5999 miles, jet streams does not affect the distance that is metered by the plane.

Yes, but you've provided me nothing more than an ESTIMATE from LAN.com based upon a Round Earth map. An estimate is just that, an estimate. Lan.com automatically measured the distances between the two areas, based on a Round Earth map, and gave you an estimate for travel time and distance. There is not a scintilla of proof in any of that. Lan.com is not in the business of studying the shape of the earth or verifying travel times - Lan.com is simply a travel agent which sells tickets. Lan.com buys maps and has a computer which automatically measure distances, divided by a rated aircraft speed, and estimate travel times for people.

For evidence that the recurring flight between South America and New Zealand are often delayed, we just need to look at the link Gulliver has provided in his "Primer." We will see that the flight we are talking about received a consumer satisfaction rating of three out of ten stars, or something low like that.

Hence, we see that the flight is not as advertised, that there is something catastrophically wrong with the current maps, that flight estimates are simply estimates based on premade maps and nothing more.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2007, 11:57:26 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Gulliver

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Re: Proof that the earth is NOT FLAT
« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2007, 11:56:52 AM »
Quote
Tom this IS A DIRECT NON-STOP FLIGHT
and the distance is 5999 miles, jet streams does not affect the distance that is metered by the plane.

Yes, but you've provided me nothing more than an ESTIMATE from LAN.com based upon a Round Earth map. An estimate is just that, an estimate. Lan.com automatically measured the distances between the two areas, based on a Round Earth map, and gave you an estimate for travel time and distance. There is not a scintilla of proof in any of that. Lan.com is not in the business of studying the shape of the earth or verifying travel times - Lan.com is simply a travel agent which sells tickets. Lan.com buys maps and has a computer which automatically measure distances and estimate travel times for people.

For evidence that the recurring flight between South America and New Zealand are often delayed, we just need to look at the link Gulliver has provided in his "RE Primer." We will see that the flight received a consumer satisfaction rating of three out of ten stars, or something low like that.

Hence, we see that the flight is not as advertised.

No, it was 3 out of 5 stars and it was on customer satisfaction. Average flight delays were less than 15 minutes over a three month period. Even one on time arrival or even one arrival delayed 15 minutes would prove that the FE model is flawed. We have hundreds of such documented flights, each with an average of over a hundred passengers.

The source that The RE Primer quotes is not a travel agent, but rather an independent agency that gathers statistics on international flights.

You fail, TomB.

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Mac26

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Re: Proof that the earth is NOT FLAT
« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2007, 12:16:40 PM »
Tom,
it's exactly as Gulliver said: You can buy a flight ticket and try it yourself.

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Username

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Re: Proof that the earth is NOT FLAT
« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2007, 12:18:45 PM »
The real point should be that the above map is obviously incorrect, given a flat earth or a round earth
If yo. can't argufe both sides, you understand neither

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Paradox

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Re: Proof that the earth is NOT FLAT
« Reply #11 on: September 21, 2007, 12:21:45 PM »
Southern Hemisphere Flight Times

Flight Hops
The vast majority of flights between the two extremities of the world don't travel between New Zealand and South America directly, but make a bunch of little hops along the continents, picking up and dropping off passengers along the way. Like international shipping, the post office doesn't charter a direct flight just for one parcel of mail. The post office puts it on a flight that makes dozens upon dozens of little hops along the continents of the world, picking up and dropping off mail by the ton, distributing to major regional centers. It is vastly cheaper for the airline company and post offices to operate in this fashion.

With this considered, judging the flight time between two areas would be close to impossible unless you could find a non-stop flight between two distant areas on the Flat Earth.


So is the post office in on the conspiracy as well tom? I'd say that's another couple of million loyal followers of insanity, roughly speaking.
"keyboard not detected. Press any key to continue"

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Gulliver

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Re: Proof that the earth is NOT FLAT
« Reply #12 on: September 21, 2007, 12:23:16 PM »
The real point should be that the above map is obviously incorrect, given a flat earth or a round earth
No, the real point is that FE is flawed in that it can't explain the distances measured in the Southern Hemisphere.

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Jedinni

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Re: Proof that the earth is NOT FLAT
« Reply #13 on: September 21, 2007, 12:37:07 PM »
....
« Last Edit: September 21, 2007, 12:50:24 PM by Jedinni »

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Jedinni

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Re: Proof that the earth is NOT FLAT
« Reply #14 on: September 21, 2007, 12:50:57 PM »
oh crap, *post removed.