Top Ten Signs You're a Fundamentalist Christian

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Raist

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Re: Top Ten Signs You're a Fundamentalist Christian
« Reply #30 on: September 25, 2007, 05:31:38 AM »
Fundamentalist christians can get ME stoned if they want.

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Nomad

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Re: Top Ten Signs You're a Fundamentalist Christian
« Reply #31 on: September 25, 2007, 09:52:19 AM »
1) Anthropic principle
2) Anthropic principle
3) Anthropic principle
4) Morals are not universal to begin with.
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Pope Zera

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Re: Top Ten Signs You're a Fundamentalist Christian
« Reply #32 on: September 25, 2007, 10:07:08 AM »
Except people like Fred Phelps that use a two thousand+ year old book to justify stoning homosexuals.

I'll make an exception for Fred Phelps.  You can kill him with you want.  However you want.

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TheRationalTheist

Re: Top Ten Signs You're a Fundamentalist Christian
« Reply #33 on: September 25, 2007, 12:40:47 PM »
You probably have evidence that your chair won't collapse on you.  Hence, it is rational.

Here are 4 rational reasons to believe in God.

1) The amount of order and complexity in the universe. The chances of it happening by chance are absurdly small.
2) We are so far the only intelligent life in the universe. This could happen by random chance but the chances of that are also small
3) Fine tuned universe, the universe appears fine tuned for th emmergence of life. We are in just the right position in the cosmos for complex life to evolve. It is not irrational to believe that this was the result of Design.
4) Moral laws appear to be discovered, not invented. A theistic approach is the better explanation for immaterial and non-man-made moral law.

These of course are not perfect and you will probably bring up reasons why you think they are wrong. But they are rational reasons to believe in God.

1) This makes no sense.  What exactly makes order and complexity by chance such an unlikely proposition?  It is absurd to try to put a probability on something like that, because we have never seen an alternative.  It's simply the way things developed.  The universe is governed by physical laws and those laws shape the complexity we see in the universe.
2) Again, it makes no sense.  We are "so far" the only intelligent life in the universe?  No.  We are simply the only intelligent life in the universe that we know to exist.  There is a huge difference between the two statements.  Given the chain of events necessary to make life, and the vast distances between stars, this is in no way anything unusual.  It does not even suggest that intelligent life does not exist elsewhere in the universe.
3) Yes, it is.  There is a lack of real argument in this statement, hence a lack of logic.  First of all, it pretty much restates your first "rational" reason to believe in God (simply adding the element of life to the mix, but it's exactly the same argument), and second of all, there's absolutely no reason to believe that such elements don't exist elsewhere in the universe (in fact, you love probabilities as you've brought up the absurdly small probability that there would be order in the universe without a Creator; there is actually an absurdly high probability that the conditions necessary for life do, in fact, exist in many places in the universe, and thus intelligent life elsewhere is actually highly likely).  It's irrational because there's no reason to believe there is a reason for life.  Your premise is based on the assumption that life must have a purpose, and there's no reason that this should be the case.  It's a wild leap.
4) ROFL.  Moral laws are nothing but human constructs.  They are not discovered, they are invented.  You have it backwards.  Even if you could argue that there were some "master" moral laws that by rights should govern everybody, they would be based on the extremely human concept of empathy.  You've gotta be kidding.

There's nothing rational about any of your points.  In fact, I think they're all wild speculation.

(Sigh)...Oh Yattering will you stop Chattering (nevermind the pun).
1. As usual you have completely missed the point (I did not imply that all atheists were ignorant of the bible just some and you are not one of them). I was talking about the laws which are complex. I am saying that it is rational to believe in God because such complexity would not have risen completely form chaos necessarily (that is not how reality works). To explain it Another way, The laws of the universe had to have been made with logic not chaotic randomness. If they were God is a logical candidate for the originator of these laws.
2. I was not saying life period couldn't develop elsewhere in the universe. I was talking about Intelligent Life and when I said we are the only intelligent life so far I meant the only Discovered Intelligent life and therefore the only Intelligent life.
3. I see I'll have to simplify this part,
   1) We are the only intelligent life in the universe
   2) We are in just the right location for Intelligent life to develop (this doesn't happen normally).
   3) We have not proven the existence of any other planetary civilizations. They probably do not exist
   4) A large amount of coincidences had to occur in order for us to reach this point
      -- A star with all ninety-two elements
      -- A planet with the right mass, atmospheric composition and the right chemicals
      -- A main sequence star with a llong enaugh lifetime fopr intelligent life to be fostered
      -- An primordial atmosphere which would not kill early life
      -- Etc., etc., etc. (there are over actually over a hundred)
4. I did not say it was culturally universal, I said it was uninvented. We all have an innate sense of right and wrong, you do and I do, this is not just because of our cultural surroundings because it is true in other cultures.

This is not to say all cutlures are the same or that all religions teach the same things, or to say that everyone has the same values, it is to for some extra-rational reason, you know if something is right or wrong. Since you are a materialist, this is how I'll put it, Our sense of morallity appears to be naturally evolved whithin us.

Anf my argumen either way is that these moral laws only make sense if you take a theistic approach. Before you respond look at this assuming God exists.

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Nomad

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Re: Top Ten Signs You're a Fundamentalist Christian
« Reply #34 on: September 25, 2007, 12:59:17 PM »
1) Anthropic principle
2) Pure speculation on either part.  We can niether be positive that there is life, nor positive that there isn't any other life in the universe, because there is zero evidence supporting either claim at this point.
3) Anthropic principle
4) It can easily be argued that natural selection bred our morality.  It is evolutionarily favorable for survival to develop symbiosis and reciprocal altruism, along with the ability to "put oneself in another's shoes" (empathy).
« Last Edit: September 25, 2007, 01:01:22 PM by Nomad »
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Raist

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Re: Top Ten Signs You're a Fundamentalist Christian
« Reply #35 on: September 25, 2007, 02:09:06 PM »
You probably have evidence that your chair won't collapse on you.  Hence, it is rational.

Here are 4 rational reasons to believe in God.

1) The amount of order and complexity in the universe. The chances of it happening by chance are absurdly small.
2) We are so far the only intelligent life in the universe. This could happen by random chance but the chances of that are also small
3) Fine tuned universe, the universe appears fine tuned for th emmergence of life. We are in just the right position in the cosmos for complex life to evolve. It is not irrational to believe that this was the result of Design.
4) Moral laws appear to be discovered, not invented. A theistic approach is the better explanation for immaterial and non-man-made moral law.

These of course are not perfect and you will probably bring up reasons why you think they are wrong. But they are rational reasons to believe in God.

1) This makes no sense.  What exactly makes order and complexity by chance such an unlikely proposition?  It is absurd to try to put a probability on something like that, because we have never seen an alternative.  It's simply the way things developed.  The universe is governed by physical laws and those laws shape the complexity we see in the universe.
2) Again, it makes no sense.  We are "so far" the only intelligent life in the universe?  No.  We are simply the only intelligent life in the universe that we know to exist.  There is a huge difference between the two statements.  Given the chain of events necessary to make life, and the vast distances between stars, this is in no way anything unusual.  It does not even suggest that intelligent life does not exist elsewhere in the universe.
3) Yes, it is.  There is a lack of real argument in this statement, hence a lack of logic.  First of all, it pretty much restates your first "rational" reason to believe in God (simply adding the element of life to the mix, but it's exactly the same argument), and second of all, there's absolutely no reason to believe that such elements don't exist elsewhere in the universe (in fact, you love probabilities as you've brought up the absurdly small probability that there would be order in the universe without a Creator; there is actually an absurdly high probability that the conditions necessary for life do, in fact, exist in many places in the universe, and thus intelligent life elsewhere is actually highly likely).  It's irrational because there's no reason to believe there is a reason for life.  Your premise is based on the assumption that life must have a purpose, and there's no reason that this should be the case.  It's a wild leap.
4) ROFL.  Moral laws are nothing but human constructs.  They are not discovered, they are invented.  You have it backwards.  Even if you could argue that there were some "master" moral laws that by rights should govern everybody, they would be based on the extremely human concept of empathy.  You've gotta be kidding.

There's nothing rational about any of your points.  In fact, I think they're all wild speculation.

(Sigh)...Oh Yattering will you stop Chattering (nevermind the pun).
1. As usual you have completely missed the point (I did not imply that all atheists were ignorant of the bible just some and you are not one of them). I was talking about the laws which are complex. I am saying that it is rational to believe in God because such complexity would not have risen completely form chaos necessarily (that is not how reality works). To explain it Another way, The laws of the universe had to have been made with logic not chaotic randomness. If they were God is a logical candidate for the originator of these laws.
2. I was not saying life period couldn't develop elsewhere in the universe. I was talking about Intelligent Life and when I said we are the only intelligent life so far I meant the only Discovered Intelligent life and therefore the only Intelligent life.
3. I see I'll have to simplify this part,
   1) We are the only intelligent life in the universe
   2) We are in just the right location for Intelligent life to develop (this doesn't happen normally).
   3) We have not proven the existence of any other planetary civilizations. They probably do not exist
   4) A large amount of coincidences had to occur in order for us to reach this point
      -- A star with all ninety-two elements
      -- A planet with the right mass, atmospheric composition and the right chemicals
      -- A main sequence star with a llong enaugh lifetime fopr intelligent life to be fostered
      -- An primordial atmosphere which would not kill early life
      -- Etc., etc., etc. (there are over actually over a hundred)
4. I did not say it was culturally universal, I said it was uninvented. We all have an innate sense of right and wrong, you do and I do, this is not just because of our cultural surroundings because it is true in other cultures.

This is not to say all cutlures are the same or that all religions teach the same things, or to say that everyone has the same values, it is to for some extra-rational reason, you know if something is right or wrong. Since you are a materialist, this is how I'll put it, Our sense of morallity appears to be naturally evolved whithin us.

Anf my argumen either way is that these moral laws only make sense if you take a theistic approach. Before you respond look at this assuming God exists.

You are assuming we are the only intelligent life in the universe.
You claim that we are in a perfect place for us to exist. This statement is retarded. Wherever we were in the universe we would assume the conditions were perfect. Life as we know it is perfect for where it occurs. Thus this statement is simply proof of the adaptability of life.



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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: Top Ten Signs You're a Fundamentalist Christian
« Reply #36 on: September 25, 2007, 08:30:32 PM »
@TheRationalTheist:  So if the amazing complexity of the universe is proof of the existence of God, what about the amazing complexity of God Himself?  Nothing simple could have created something so complex.  So, using your logic, God would have to have a Creator, who would have to have a Creator, who would have to have a Creator, and so on, to infinity.

Using your logic.   ::)
« Last Edit: September 25, 2007, 10:19:53 PM by The Yattering »
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: Top Ten Signs You're a Fundamentalist Christian
« Reply #37 on: September 25, 2007, 08:31:42 PM »
My God, I think you've logically proven that the Judeo-Christian God doesn't exist.  Wow, call PZ Myers!   ;D
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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Raist

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Re: Top Ten Signs You're a Fundamentalist Christian
« Reply #38 on: September 25, 2007, 08:34:26 PM »
So if the amazing complexity of the universe is proof of the existence of God, what about the amazing complexity of God Himself?  Nothing simple could have created something so complex.  So, using your logic, God would have to have a Creator, who would have to have a Creator, who would have to have a Creator, and so on, to infinity.

Using your logic.   ::)

Not addressed to me was it?

Plus that is hardly a proof. You blandly state that something simple can't create something complex. This makes two horrible assumptions. One that this statement is true, and two that our universe created god. He could be a)eternal or b) created in a higher more complex universe.


So not too bad as far as disproving god goes. But still a failure to do so.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2007, 08:36:43 PM by Raist »

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: Top Ten Signs You're a Fundamentalist Christian
« Reply #39 on: September 25, 2007, 08:35:24 PM »
No, The Rational Theist.  I'm sorry if that wasn't plain.   ;D
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

Re: Top Ten Signs You're a Fundamentalist Christian
« Reply #40 on: September 27, 2007, 11:43:53 AM »
Quote
9 - You feel insulted and "dehumanized" when scientists say that people evolved from other life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created from dirt.

Doesn't evolution also imply that humans were created from dirt?

Dirt meaning primordial ooze conatining organic compunds...then yes.
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TheRationalTheist

Re: Top Ten Signs You're a Fundamentalist Christian
« Reply #41 on: September 27, 2007, 07:34:12 PM »
So if the amazing complexity of the universe is proof of the existence of God, what about the amazing complexity of God Himself?  Nothing simple could have created something so complex.  So, using your logic, God would have to have a Creator, who would have to have a Creator, who would have to have a Creator, and so on, to infinity.

Using your logic.   ::)


Not addressed to me was it?

Plus that is hardly a proof. You blandly state that something simple can't create something complex. This makes two horrible assumptions. One that this statement is true, and two that our universe created god. He could be a)eternal or b) created in a higher more complex universe.


So not too bad as far as disproving god goes. But still a failure to do so.

I see your logic but I have heard this argument before.
--First of all you cannot prove that God had a beginning, and neither does the bible say that he had a beginning. So this argument is a poor argument against the christian God, He is eternal.
--And to your subsequent statement (I am replying out of order), the computer wasn't the result of an accidental explosion in an inventor's workshop and it is not impossible but somewhat improbable that the complex specified information in a DNA molecule is the result of a random accident.

Yours sincerely, the Rational Theist 

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Re: Top Ten Signs You're a Fundamentalist Christian
« Reply #42 on: September 27, 2007, 07:40:50 PM »
So if the amazing complexity of the universe is proof of the existence of God, what about the amazing complexity of God Himself?  Nothing simple could have created something so complex.  So, using your logic, God would have to have a Creator, who would have to have a Creator, who would have to have a Creator, and so on, to infinity.

Using your logic.   ::)


Not addressed to me was it?

Plus that is hardly a proof. You blandly state that something simple can't create something complex. This makes two horrible assumptions. One that this statement is true, and two that our universe created god. He could be a)eternal or b) created in a higher more complex universe.


So not too bad as far as disproving god goes. But still a failure to do so.

I see your logic but I have heard this argument before.
--First of all you cannot prove that God had a beginning, and neither does the bible say that he had a beginning. So this argument is a poor argument against the christian God, He is eternal.

You equally can't prove that the universe had a beginning.  So the "The universe is so complex!" argument is a failure.

Once again, using your logic.
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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TheRationalTheist

Re: Top Ten Signs You're a Fundamentalist Christian
« Reply #43 on: September 27, 2007, 07:52:51 PM »
So if the amazing complexity of the universe is proof of the existence of God, what about the amazing complexity of God Himself?  Nothing simple could have created something so complex.  So, using your logic, God would have to have a Creator, who would have to have a Creator, who would have to have a Creator, and so on, to infinity.

Using your logic.   ::)



Not addressed to me was it?

Plus that is hardly a proof. You blandly state that something simple can't create something complex. This makes two horrible assumptions. One that this statement is true, and two that our universe created god. He could be a)eternal or b) created in a higher more complex universe.


So not too bad as far as disproving god goes. But still a failure to do so.

I see your logic but I have heard this argument before.
--First of all you cannot prove that God had a beginning, and neither does the bible say that he had a beginning. So this argument is a poor argument against the christian God, He is eternal.

You equally can't prove that the universe had a beginning.  So the "The universe is so complex!" argument is a failure.

Once again, using your logic.

True but it is easier to say the universe had a beginning, and find evidence for the univers's beginning then to search for God's beginning.

Once again sincerely, The Rational Theist 

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TheRationalTheist

Re: Top Ten Signs You're a Fundamentalist Christian
« Reply #44 on: September 27, 2007, 07:56:03 PM »
So if the amazing complexity of the universe is proof of the existence of God, what about the amazing complexity of God Himself?  Nothing simple could have created something so complex.  So, using your logic, God would have to have a Creator, who would have to have a Creator, who would have to have a Creator, and so on, to infinity.

Using your logic.   ::)



Not addressed to me was it?

Plus that is hardly a proof. You blandly state that something simple can't create something complex. This makes two horrible assumptions. One that this statement is true, and two that our universe created god. He could be a)eternal or b) created in a higher more complex universe.


So not too bad as far as disproving god goes. But still a failure to do so.

I see your logic but I have heard this argument before.
--First of all you cannot prove that God had a beginning, and neither does the bible say that he had a beginning. So this argument is a poor argument against the christian God, He is eternal.

You equally can't prove that the universe had a beginning.  So the "The universe is so complex!" argument is a failure.

Once again, using your logic.

True but it is easier to say the universe had a beginning, and find evidence for the univers's beginning then to search for God's beginning.

Once again sincerely, The Rational Theist 

Also there is no reason not to believe God was not designed from a theological perspective, there is nothing philosophically wrong with an infinite regress of designers except for the fact that we know the universe did have a beginning, we can not say if God had a beginning

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Raist

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Re: Top Ten Signs You're a Fundamentalist Christian
« Reply #45 on: September 27, 2007, 07:57:29 PM »
So if the amazing complexity of the universe is proof of the existence of God, what about the amazing complexity of God Himself?  Nothing simple could have created something so complex.  So, using your logic, God would have to have a Creator, who would have to have a Creator, who would have to have a Creator, and so on, to infinity.

Using your logic.   ::)


Not addressed to me was it?

Plus that is hardly a proof. You blandly state that something simple can't create something complex. This makes two horrible assumptions. One that this statement is true, and two that our universe created god. He could be a)eternal or b) created in a higher more complex universe.


So not too bad as far as disproving god goes. But still a failure to do so.

I see your logic but I have heard this argument before.
--First of all you cannot prove that God had a beginning, and neither does the bible say that he had a beginning. So this argument is a poor argument against the christian God, He is eternal.

You equally can't prove that the universe had a beginning.  So the "The universe is so complex!" argument is a failure.

Once again, using your logic.

but there is evidence that states that it had a beginning. so while we can't prove it, we can reasonably assume it.

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: Top Ten Signs You're a Fundamentalist Christian
« Reply #46 on: September 27, 2007, 07:59:09 PM »
So if the amazing complexity of the universe is proof of the existence of God, what about the amazing complexity of God Himself?  Nothing simple could have created something so complex.  So, using your logic, God would have to have a Creator, who would have to have a Creator, who would have to have a Creator, and so on, to infinity.

Using your logic.   ::)



Not addressed to me was it?

Plus that is hardly a proof. You blandly state that something simple can't create something complex. This makes two horrible assumptions. One that this statement is true, and two that our universe created god. He could be a)eternal or b) created in a higher more complex universe.


So not too bad as far as disproving god goes. But still a failure to do so.

I see your logic but I have heard this argument before.
--First of all you cannot prove that God had a beginning, and neither does the bible say that he had a beginning. So this argument is a poor argument against the christian God, He is eternal.

You equally can't prove that the universe had a beginning.  So the "The universe is so complex!" argument is a failure.

Once again, using your logic.

True but it is easier to say the universe had a beginning, and find evidence for the univers's beginning then to search for God's beginning.

Once again sincerely, The Rational Theist 

Why is it easier to say that the universe had a beginning?  That makes no sense.
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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TheRationalTheist

Re: Top Ten Signs You're a Fundamentalist Christian
« Reply #47 on: September 27, 2007, 08:03:25 PM »
So if the amazing complexity of the universe is proof of the existence of God, what about the amazing complexity of God Himself?  Nothing simple could have created something so complex.  So, using your logic, God would have to have a Creator, who would have to have a Creator, who would have to have a Creator, and so on, to infinity.

Using your logic.   ::)



Not addressed to me was it?

Plus that is hardly a proof. You blandly state that something simple can't create something complex. This makes two horrible assumptions. One that this statement is true, and two that our universe created god. He could be a)eternal or b) created in a higher more complex universe.


So not too bad as far as disproving god goes. But still a failure to do so.

I see your logic but I have heard this argument before.
--First of all you cannot prove that God had a beginning, and neither does the bible say that he had a beginning. So this argument is a poor argument against the christian God, He is eternal.

You equally can't prove that the universe had a beginning.  So the "The universe is so complex!" argument is a failure.

Once again, using your logic.

True but it is easier to say the universe had a beginning, and find evidence for the univers's beginning then to search for God's beginning.

Once again sincerely, The Rational Theist 

Why is it easier to say that the universe had a beginning?  That makes no sense.

Looking to the edge of the universe we can see that the other end of the universe is about 14,000,000,00 lightyears away. And what we know of the universe's expansion we can extrapolate back 14 billion (13.7 billion if you want to be exact) years to what could be percieved as the beginning. God as an entity outside of time and space we would have know way of knowing when He began unless he told us. Which I believe He did, and He said He's always been here.

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: Top Ten Signs You're a Fundamentalist Christian
« Reply #48 on: September 27, 2007, 08:09:20 PM »
So if the amazing complexity of the universe is proof of the existence of God, what about the amazing complexity of God Himself?  Nothing simple could have created something so complex.  So, using your logic, God would have to have a Creator, who would have to have a Creator, who would have to have a Creator, and so on, to infinity.

Using your logic.   ::)



Not addressed to me was it?

Plus that is hardly a proof. You blandly state that something simple can't create something complex. This makes two horrible assumptions. One that this statement is true, and two that our universe created god. He could be a)eternal or b) created in a higher more complex universe.


So not too bad as far as disproving god goes. But still a failure to do so.

I see your logic but I have heard this argument before.
--First of all you cannot prove that God had a beginning, and neither does the bible say that he had a beginning. So this argument is a poor argument against the christian God, He is eternal.

You equally can't prove that the universe had a beginning.  So the "The universe is so complex!" argument is a failure.

Once again, using your logic.

True but it is easier to say the universe had a beginning, and find evidence for the univers's beginning then to search for God's beginning.

Once again sincerely, The Rational Theist 

Why is it easier to say that the universe had a beginning?  That makes no sense.

Looking to the edge of the universe we can see that the other end of the universe is about 14,000,000,00 lightyears away. And what we know of the universe's expansion we can extrapolate back 14 billion (13.7 billion if you want to be exact) years to what could be percieved as the beginning. God as an entity outside of time and space we would have know way of knowing when He began unless he told us. Which I believe He did, and He said He's always been here.

But before the Big Bang there was still a singularity, and who knows what form it was in before that?  How can we possibly know that all time and space literally began with that moment?  We'll never have a definitive answer to that question.  It's absurd.
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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Raist

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Re: Top Ten Signs You're a Fundamentalist Christian
« Reply #49 on: September 27, 2007, 08:17:12 PM »
So if the amazing complexity of the universe is proof of the existence of God, what about the amazing complexity of God Himself?  Nothing simple could have created something so complex.  So, using your logic, God would have to have a Creator, who would have to have a Creator, who would have to have a Creator, and so on, to infinity.

Using your logic.   ::)



Not addressed to me was it?

Plus that is hardly a proof. You blandly state that something simple can't create something complex. This makes two horrible assumptions. One that this statement is true, and two that our universe created god. He could be a)eternal or b) created in a higher more complex universe.


So not too bad as far as disproving god goes. But still a failure to do so.

I see your logic but I have heard this argument before.
--First of all you cannot prove that God had a beginning, and neither does the bible say that he had a beginning. So this argument is a poor argument against the christian God, He is eternal.

You equally can't prove that the universe had a beginning.  So the "The universe is so complex!" argument is a failure.

Once again, using your logic.

True but it is easier to say the universe had a beginning, and find evidence for the univers's beginning then to search for God's beginning.

Once again sincerely, The Rational Theist 

Why is it easier to say that the universe had a beginning?  That makes no sense.

Looking to the edge of the universe we can see that the other end of the universe is about 14,000,000,00 lightyears away. And what we know of the universe's expansion we can extrapolate back 14 billion (13.7 billion if you want to be exact) years to what could be percieved as the beginning. God as an entity outside of time and space we would have know way of knowing when He began unless he told us. Which I believe He did, and He said He's always been here.

But before the Big Bang there was still a singularity, and who knows what form it was in before that?  How can we possibly know that all time and space literally began with that moment?  We'll never have a definitive answer to that question.  It's absurd.
Before the big bang it was in no way what we would call our universe. So while it may have existed before that, it's safe to say "our" universe has a begining.

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TheRationalTheist

Re: Top Ten Signs You're a Fundamentalist Christian
« Reply #50 on: September 27, 2007, 08:43:48 PM »
So if the amazing complexity of the universe is proof of the existence of God, what about the amazing complexity of God Himself?  Nothing simple could have created something so complex.  So, using your logic, God would have to have a Creator, who would have to have a Creator, who would have to have a Creator, and so on, to infinity.

Using your logic.   ::)



Not addressed to me was it?

Plus that is hardly a proof. You blandly state that something simple can't create something complex. This makes two horrible assumptions. One that this statement is true, and two that our universe created god. He could be a)eternal or b) created in a higher more complex universe.


So not too bad as far as disproving god goes. But still a failure to do so.

I see your logic but I have heard this argument before.
--First of all you cannot prove that God had a beginning, and neither does the bible say that he had a beginning. So this argument is a poor argument against the christian God, He is eternal.

You equally can't prove that the universe had a beginning.  So the "The universe is so complex!" argument is a failure.

Once again, using your logic.

True but it is easier to say the universe had a beginning, and find evidence for the univers's beginning then to search for God's beginning.

Once again sincerely, The Rational Theist 

Why is it easier to say that the universe had a beginning?  That makes no sense.

Looking to the edge of the universe we can see that the other end of the universe is about 14,000,000,00 lightyears away. And what we know of the universe's expansion we can extrapolate back 14 billion (13.7 billion if you want to be exact) years to what could be percieved as the beginning. God as an entity outside of time and space we would have know way of knowing when He began unless he told us. Which I believe He did, and He said He's always been here.

But before the Big Bang there was still a singularity, and who knows what form it was in before that?  How can we possibly know that all time and space literally began with that moment?  We'll never have a definitive answer to that question.  It's absurd.

Exactly, so in the end we can never know whether or not God exists it really depends on what you believe. I am a theist you are an atheist (presumably). So we both have different opinions on God and neither of us can absolutely prove anything with absolute certainty, but then again science can't prove anything we are relying on the metaphysical.

You think I'm irrational? google "Evolution is an evil lie from Satan," it's on youtube I believe. I rest my case.

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: Top Ten Signs You're a Fundamentalist Christian
« Reply #51 on: September 27, 2007, 09:25:06 PM »
I am an avowed agnostic.  I really wish you actually paid attention.   ::)
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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TheRationalTheist

Re: Top Ten Signs You're a Fundamentalist Christian
« Reply #52 on: September 27, 2007, 10:05:14 PM »
I am an avowed agnostic.  I really wish you actually paid attention.   ::)

Evidence that God does exist and evidence that God could exist are not the same things.

And forgive me for mislabeling your religious position

Yours sincerely, The Rational Theist

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Midnight

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Re: Top Ten Signs You're a Fundamentalist Christian
« Reply #53 on: September 27, 2007, 10:06:59 PM »
/Apathy
My problem with his ideas is that it is a ridiculous thing.

Genius. PURE, undiluted genius.

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cmdshft

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Re: Top Ten Signs You're a Fundamentalist Christian
« Reply #54 on: September 27, 2007, 10:23:50 PM »
Look at me! I am a Christian! *plugs ears and covers eyes* LALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU OR SEE YOUR PROPAGANDA LALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALAL

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Re: Top Ten Signs You're a Fundamentalist Christian
« Reply #55 on: September 27, 2007, 10:41:53 PM »

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Derek

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Re: Top Ten Signs You're a Fundamentalist Christian
« Reply #56 on: September 27, 2007, 10:44:04 PM »
You guys hit quote too many times.

Also,
Top Two signs you're a douche:

1) You make stupid lists to generalize people and judge them on negative qualities
2) You're a hypocrite ^^

- Derek the Douche
Quote from: EvilToothpaste
In that case, lets get back to our civilized discussion:  I'm right.   :D

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TheRationalTheist

Re: Top Ten Signs You're a Fundamentalist Christian
« Reply #57 on: September 27, 2007, 11:23:02 PM »
So if the amazing complexity of the universe is proof of the existence of God, what about the amazing complexity of God Himself?  Nothing simple could have created something so complex.  So, using your logic, God would have to have a Creator, who would have to have a Creator, who would have to have a Creator, and so on, to infinity.

Using your logic.   ::)

Not addressed to me was it?

Plus that is hardly a proof. You blandly state that something simple can't create something complex. This makes two horrible assumptions. One that this statement is true, and two that our universe created god. He could be a)eternal or b) created in a higher more complex universe.


So not too bad as far as disproving god goes. But still a failure to do so.

Ofcourse not, I am the one he dislikes.

And name one specified complex invention which arose chaotic randomness. I'll give you the evidence tommorrow its late.

Re: Top Ten Signs You're a Fundamentalist Christian
« Reply #58 on: September 29, 2007, 07:03:23 PM »
People like number one bug me ???
No problem solved in the least--and you only had to eliminate an entire continent to fail to accomplish it.

Re: Top Ten Signs You're a Fundamentalist Christian
« Reply #59 on: September 29, 2007, 11:08:29 PM »
What would anyone possibly gain by knowing how a god works or why its plausible?

If it's faith, it's faith.  The principles are supposed to conform to our abstract thinking, a sort of government for each individual person.  Whomever said that morality was probably developed via natural selection was on the right track, though that's not necessarily how natural selection works.  Much like government, we develop abstract systems to work in our abstract world.  Our constructed world works much differently than "the real world" and so we must construct a rule system to go along with it, as the needs of this community are vastly different from any other community on the Earth.

Also, please stop scoffing at the word 'faith'.  Believe it or not, due to the philosophical definitions of science, TheRationalTheist is more correct in saying that you have faith that your chair will not collapse on you.  Its almost as if I can hear the collective elitist snorts in my mind.  You will never EVER prove causality, you will only ever try to prove something wrong and temporarily be unable to.  That is all.

Many of you are still trapped in the materialistic mindset of the western school of thought.
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