Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy

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Yesterday was Holocaust Memorial day here in Israel.  Remeber the victims of the Nazis :cry:

Never again :!:

how is this "alternative science?"   are you guys just going against the truth just to go against it?

how is this "alternative science?"   are you guys just going against the truth just to go against it?

If by "you guys" you mean, "Dionysios", then yes, that seems like a very likely explanation for just about all his behavior ever.

-Erasmus

Quote from: "troubadour"

how is this "alternative science?"   are you guys just going against the truth just to go against it?

If by "you guys" you mean, "Dionysios", then yes, that seems like a very likely explanation for just about all his behavior ever.

-Erasmus

seems like a cry for attention, or to stand out somehow.

BTW, Arthur R. Butz is known as a quack in the history world, i would know i'm part of it. His only credentials as a historian are that he sits on the board of The Journal of Historical Review, who are the self-proclaimed, "world's leading Holocaust denial organisation." The very way the IHR go about their "research" and coming to their conclusions is horrid. They come to conclusions first, then find(or fabricate) historical evidence to lend to their conclusions. The complete OPPOSITE way to analyze history. The editorial board of the Journal of American History(an acutally reputable historical journal) wrote, "We all abhor, on both moral and scholarly grounds, the substantive arguments of the Institute for Historical Review. We reject their claims to be taken seriously as historians." (Journal of American History, Vol 80, No. 3, p1213).

Flat out, this is bunk. To believe it, it to believe the rantings of a bigoted and anti-semite organization.

BTW, Arthur R. Butz is known as a quack in the history world, i would know i'm part of it. ...
Flat out, this is bunk. To believe it, it to believe the rantings of a bigoted and anti-semite organization.

Agreed.  I've read a bit of Butz's work, and I find it totally unsupported by proper methodology; and I have no institutional background in history that somebody might say is biasing my opinion.

-Erasmus

Quote from: "troubadour"

BTW, Arthur R. Butz is known as a quack in the history world, i would know i'm part of it. ...
Flat out, this is bunk. To believe it, it to believe the rantings of a bigoted and anti-semite organization.

Agreed.  I've read a bit of Butz's work, and I find it totally unsupported by proper methodology; and I have no institutional background in history that somebody might say is biasing my opinion.

-Erasmus

Fair enough then. I also agree with you, as someone who has been "Biased by the institution". I am a Graduate Student at The University of Massachusetts. History with a Focus on the Middle Ages. My undergrad was at Loyola in New Orleans, also in History. I figured it was time to go from a right-wing to a left-wing school, just for good balance. For the record I sit somewhere in the middle.

i say its much ado about nothing. this guy wrote reams and reams of nothing

Fair enough then. I also agree with you, as someone who has been "Biased by the institution".

Just so I'm not misunderstood, I was in no way accusing anybody of being biased.  I simply acknowledge that, since every reputable historian says that Butz is a loon, people like Dionysios might say that such historians are all biased, or have vested interest in defending the lie.

I however have no formal historical training and no stake in an organization whose business is the study of history, so no such accusation can be made against me.

My experience with formal education tells me that it only installs bias in people who would have had some other bias installed in them anyway, had they not had that particular formal education.

-Erasmus

I decided not to read it, but from your posts, I'm guessing that it's saying the Holocast never happened.
Am I right?

I decided not to read it, but from your posts, I'm guessing that it's saying the Holocast never happened.
Am I right?

Something like that.  It claims that the numbers were much smaller than are claimed nowadays, and that it was never a centrally organized effort.  For a quick summary, Wikipedia has an article about "Holocaust denial" or something like that.

-Erasmus

Well, if the numbers aren't what they say they are, what happened to all the people who aren't here anymore? Did they commit suicide and fall into a pit of lava? What?

seeing as how it has 15306 words, i dont feel like looking through to find out. whoever wrote this should say it to a survivors face and explain the number tatooed on their arm.

Well, if the numbers aren't what they say they are, what happened to all the people who aren't here anymore? Did they commit suicide and fall into a pit of lava? What?

Heh.  Interestingly, the basis of his argument is, "Look: there's still some Jews around.  Therefore the Nazis didn't exterminate them."

I would assume he's claiming that both | { people killed by Nazis } | and | { civilians not around any more all of a sudden after WWII } | have been exaggerated.

-Erasmus

Ahhh, I see.

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To the ivory tower critic (troubador),

Although, this post drew no replies for a while, I see it has generated some discussion since I last viewed it.  

  Erasmus, I thank you for the objective comments.  Although you disagree with my position and I do not agree with all your posts, you have been rather fair in your portayal of my postion.  In particular, you have made reference to the text in question, something I fail to see from troubador's comments.

  troubador, for someone who claims to be a graduate historian, it seems to me your credentials are badges of shame.  You have not made any comments to the text I posted, but only degrading comments about myself and Butz.  Thanks for your "authoritative" rebuttal which I could of picked up off the street without having to go to a prestigious university, ad nauseum, et cetera.

  By the way, Butz is not a history professor himself (yet he's better than you by long shot), but teaches on his specialty which is in the Department of Engineering.  By the "history world" do you mean biased western academia with government (including CIA and a host of neo-conservative organizations)
agencies and organizations recruiting on major campuses nationwide (especially up there in the Ivy League area where you're from, MR. Know-it-all) or do you mean you're own stubborn opinions.  Certainly you do not mean the opinions of the islamic world or eastern europe in which regions I have travelled in these areas on multiple occasions and find it more common than not to meet people who disbelieve in the holocaust from these areas.  

  As to why this is in the alternative science category, the evidence within this website indicates you are a lazy researcher who speaks before he knows any facts.  I earlier asked Cinlef (under the genetic races superior post)(since he is not only a moderator but the individual on this website who has so far posted the most on this topic other than myself, albeit from the contrary position) whether he thought a post on this topic should be under 'Everything Else' or some other category and he indicated 'Alternative Science' (presumably due to the gas chamber aspect of the issue).  So with respect to his reply, I have posted this under the Alternative Science category.  It actually was my idea before asking him to have posted this in the 'Everything Else' category as the topic certainly touches on considerably more than just the mythical gas chambers.

  troubador's claims of college, et cetera mean not a damnable thing to me.  They seem only to have washed his brain.  I am interested in knowledge and truth.  These are what are close to my heart.  this puffed-up ignoramus has so far only dispensed put-downs and self-praise.

  If troubador actually wants to have something even in the direction towards a discussion which makes progress on the topic (which is doubtful, judging by his bias and the content of his replies), then my recommendation is he make a remark reguarding the bloody content of the text I posted (pun intended).

- Dionysios

I didn't bother doing a formal critque of Butz because it's not worth my time. You believe the rantings of a crazed anti-semite, I'll believe everyone else. Differing opinions of events are one thing, but completely rewriting history to fit your vison of it is another. Credentials are important when you try to do something like rewrite history, and Butz simply doesn't have any. And despite what you think about academic historians, we are taught to interprate history from as much of a non-biased view as possible. But more then that, just like other conspiracies theorists about events like the JFK assassination, the moon landing, Area 51, etc, Butz ignores the massive amount of evidence against his theory. That is why he is a bad historian, not really because of any lack of credientials.

And yes, I do tend to put people in their place from time to time. But that's what happens when you start talking about something without knowing fully what you are talking about. If you want to sit here on your board and spew your pseudo-science and malformed conspiracy theories go ahead. But when people come to set the record straight don't act surprised if they tend to put you down for the garbage you believe.

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As far as I can see you're an ignorant man and your last reply did nothing to change that.

- Dionysios

I guess the credibility of the person behind the theory means nothing to you. Also, it's not my problem if you take critizism personally, that's a flaw in your own character.

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I have read through this (albiet out of boredom, sue me)

I find it entirely possible that the numbers have been inflated, but at the same time I do not have access to records of Jewish Faith Population before WWII.

I know that the Holocaust personally happened, because a fine woman and mother I know survived the Holocaust on the French Front.  Her brother was in the French Rebellion and she was a captured Jew.  Even in her old age she still has scars.

So in short, my question is:  The overall conclusion that you present, is it that the Holocaust (extermination of the Jews) didn't happen merely out of symantics.  Rather, that since all Jews were not exterminated the word "Holocaust" cannot be used?  Records show that Concentration Camps existed and many German Soldiers and Jewish Prisoners have testimony that match.

Why does anyone deny the holocaust at all?  How do they explain the dissappearance of 6 million Jews, and millions of Poles, Slavs, Soviet POWs, etc.?

I never understood why this is even debatable. the notion that it did not happen is rediculous.

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the figures during the war were probably not missing 6 million people as we did not find out the full extent of the Nazi genocide until after the war.  By 1951, one would expect a somewhat accurate deathtoll, and thus new publications with a diminished Jewish populations would be accounting for that data.

I don't see the benefit in using the word 'Zionist'.  Zionists are people who believe the Jews should go back to Israel or something.  what does that have to do with people dying in WW2?

We know the deathcamps killed people.  We have some air reconassiance photographs showing the furnaces and gas chambers on them.

It is fact that the Nazis had a 'euthanasia' program for the disabled.  How is it hard to imagine this would be extended to the deathcamps, in order to kill homosexuals, atheists, freemasons, political dissidents, Gypsies, Jews, Slavs, Poles, and Soviet POWs?

and there were some deathcamps outside of the post-war Warsaw pact.  A small one was set up in Italy late in the war., for example.  True, most were in Poland.  But, if the deathcamps were said to be in Soviet territory, why would they not say deathcamps were in Czechoslavaki, or Romania?

There is documentation of genocide, here is an example of something I saw


Note how it says 'Judenfrei' in Estonia.  Perhaps this was just one crazy soldier, who somehow had information on how many Jews were alive in Poland, Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania.  Perhaps it was bigger than that.

edit: Also note that that picture was probably irrelevant to the big picture

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I dismiss figures from the middle of war as we did not know the extent of the genocide until after the war.  The writers of this publication must have assumed Jews in the occupied territories were not dieing (whether the death camps were death camps or just concentration camps where the people were worked and starved to death, they still died), and then after the war, when we founf out about the deaths of millions, this publication could be corrected to account for the Jewish deaths.

Plus, if the holocaust is a Zionist conspiracy, why do we also believe that 3 million non-Jewish Poles were killed?  Why believe that thousands of atheists, Freemasons (which the Freemasons stil commemorate those lost in the deathcamps), and Jehova's Witnesses died?  And since there is no Jewish-Bolshevik conspiracy (Trotsky was the most well-known Jewish Bolshevik, and Stalin ran him out of the USSR), what about accounts of Soviet POWs being killed?  Plus there are the Slavic civilians killed.  Then there were 300 thousand or so Serbs killed by the Croatian government, which was basically a Nazi puppet.

Whether Hitler personally ordered the deaths is irrelevant; I don't care about blaming long dead men, I care about the fact that over ten million people were killed

6 million decided upon beforehand?  Did they also make up figures for homosexuals, political dissidents, Balkan Slavs, USSR Slavs (I say this as I just remembered Russians are Slavs or something), Poles, etc.?  And the knew the Nazis were going to build concentration camps for these people?

If the holocaust was a myth, then why did the German government ask their Bulgarian allies to send them all their Jews (the Bulgarian government refused)?  Why did Denmark put all its Jews in fishing boats and smuggle them to Sweden?  They believed the conspiracy before it was even fully in place?

And the reconassiance photographs from WW2 I have seen showed furnaces and gas chambers, IIRC.

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