Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy

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Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
« Reply #60 on: July 04, 2006, 03:04:58 PM »
the

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cadmium_blimp

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Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
« Reply #61 on: July 04, 2006, 03:06:20 PM »
Quote from: "Dionysios"
So a moderator of this forum endorses murder over a difference of opinion.

- Dionysios

How is the occurence of the Holocaust an opinion?

Quote from: Commander Taggart
Never give up, never surrender!

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6strings

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Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
« Reply #62 on: July 04, 2006, 03:17:37 PM »
Quote
How is the occurence of the Holocaust an opinion?

See, some people (normally, we call them anti-semites or "scum" for short) like to deny that the Holocaust happened, so that they can vilefy jews as attention seeking prats who stole Isreal from the Palestinians without any reason.

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cadmium_blimp

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Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
« Reply #63 on: July 04, 2006, 03:22:26 PM »
I already knew that.  The Holocaust is a thing that either did or did not happen and it did happen.  I've seen the old films the troops took at the concentration camps and I definitely do not believe they were faked.  A person would have to be pretty sick just to want to fake something like that.

Quote from: Commander Taggart
Never give up, never surrender!

Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
« Reply #64 on: July 04, 2006, 03:28:31 PM »
the

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17 November

  • Flat Earth Believer
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Re: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
« Reply #65 on: March 15, 2008, 04:28:28 PM »
Quote from: Erasmus
So go ahead and investigate ritual cannibalism by Jews.

But please don't try to use it in an argument about how Jews are evil until you can compile vast documentational, photographic, and eyewitness evidence.

-Erasmus

How about this for starters:

Jewish Ritual Murder: An Historical Investigation
By Helmut Schramm, Ph. D.
http://www.honestmediatoday.com/schramm/schramm.htm

The Oprah Winfrey Show - 1 May 1989
http://www.usajewish.com/downloads/vicki-devil-worship.HTML


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17 November

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Re: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
« Reply #66 on: March 16, 2008, 09:17:26 AM »
Quote from: Saint Raist
which mod changed all his posts to the? it's a nice touch but killed a thread i was trying to read. I agree with it though.

Quote from:  
He did that himself I believe, read above. A shame, too, since those are the ones I like best.

I apologize.  Yes, I did delete most of them well before they banned the username Dionysios.

As per the title of this thread, my initial post stated that the near universal belief of western civilization in a huge lie actually has precedent - namely the Donation of Constantine forgery which was perpetrated in Charlemagne's time some 500 years after Saint Constantine the Roman Emperor himself.  This forgery was the basis of many unethical political thefts, false claims, and wrongdoings such as the crusades and others until it was exposed by Lorenzo Valla and others during the renaissance era centuries later.  By 1600 even the papists themselves acknowledged it was a forgery.

Based on an essay by Professor Arthur Butz, Ph. D. of Case Western Reserve University in Ohio, I had compared belief in the jewish holocaust of WWII with belief in the Donation of Constantine forgery.

+Dionysios
« Last Edit: March 16, 2008, 09:20:06 AM by 17 November »

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17 November

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Re: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
« Reply #67 on: March 16, 2008, 09:28:46 AM »
However, although I believe the Germans to be innocent of genocide in WWII (which is different than persecution), I do believe that the German government was guilty of both complicity with Turkey and cover-up of the genocide of Armenians in WWI.

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sokarul

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Re: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
« Reply #68 on: March 16, 2008, 11:24:57 AM »
However, although I believe the Germans to be innocent of genocide in WWII (which is different than persecution), I do believe that the German government was guilty of both complicity with Turkey and cover-up of the genocide of Armenians in WWI.
Which is why you are just a religous nut with no fucking clue about anything.
See all your threads for evidence.     
ANNIHILATOR OF  SHIFTER

It's no slur if it's fact.

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17 November

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Re: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
« Reply #69 on: March 23, 2008, 02:10:21 PM »
Quote from: 17 November
My initial post had stated that the near universal belief of western civilization in a huge lie has a precedent - the Donation of Constantine forgery which was perpetrated in Charlemagne's time some 500 years after Saint Constantine the Roman Emperor himself.  This forgery was the basis of many unethical political thefts, false claims, and wrongdoings such as the crusades and others until it was exposed by Lorenzo Valla and others during the renaissance era centuries later.  By 1600 even the papists themselves acknowledged it was a forgery.

Based on an essay by Professor Arthur Butz, Ph. D. of Case Western Reserve University in Ohio, I had compared belief in the jewish holocaust of WWII with belief in the Donation of Constantine forgery.

The similarities between the alleged jewish holocaust and the greatest lie of the Middle Ages will be better appreciated by one who compares well researched holocaust revisionist literature with this brief but pointed analysis and rebuttal of the 'Donation of Constantine':

The Donation of Constantine and the Critique of Lorenzo Valla
http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/donation/donation_of_constantine.htm

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Raist

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Re: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
« Reply #70 on: March 24, 2008, 12:02:55 PM »
Quote from: 17 November
My initial post had stated that the near universal belief of western civilization in a huge lie has a precedent - the Donation of Constantine forgery which was perpetrated in Charlemagne's time some 500 years after Saint Constantine the Roman Emperor himself.  This forgery was the basis of many unethical political thefts, false claims, and wrongdoings such as the crusades and others until it was exposed by Lorenzo Valla and others during the renaissance era centuries later.  By 1600 even the papists themselves acknowledged it was a forgery.

Based on an essay by Professor Arthur Butz, Ph. D. of Case Western Reserve University in Ohio, I had compared belief in the jewish holocaust of WWII with belief in the Donation of Constantine forgery.

The similarities between the alleged jewish holocaust and the greatest lie of the Middle Ages will be better appreciated by one who compares well researched holocaust revisionist literature with this brief but pointed analysis and rebuttal of the 'Donation of Constantine':

The Donation of Constantine and the Critique of Lorenzo Valla
http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/donation/donation_of_constantine.htm
Pics and eyewitness testimony, first-hand perspective from live survivors....  compared to a document..... Oh the similarities are endless.

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[][][]

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Re: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
« Reply #71 on: March 27, 2008, 10:30:12 AM »
Ah yes, America going to war with Hitler to free the Jews from Hitler's evil grasp, we are such saints, aren't we? I suppose the fact that most Americans, and a good deal of our soldiers, did not even know the concentration camps existed until the War in Europe was over with did not factor into your reasoning. And here I have been thinking America went to war because of our alliances with European nations, the attack on the Pacific Fleet, to protect the hegemonical balance in Europe, ect.

I think many people overemphasize the connection between the Holocaust and the Second World War.
The folly of mistaking a paradox for a discovery, a metaphor for a proof, a torrent of verbiage for a spring of capital truths, and oneself for an oracle, is inborn in us. -Some Frenchy

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khaspal

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Re: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
« Reply #72 on: March 27, 2008, 10:39:20 AM »
Ah yes, America going to war with Hitler to free the Jews from Hitler's evil grasp, we are such saints, aren't we? I suppose the fact that most Americans, and a good deal of our soldiers, did not even know the concentration camps existed until the War in Europe was over with did not factor into your reasoning. And here I have been thinking America went to war because of our alliances with European nations, the attack on the Pacific Fleet, to protect the hegemonical balance in Europe, ect.

I think many people overemphasize the connection between the Holocaust and the Second World War.

I don't really feel like reading through every post in here... who claimed we joined because of the concentration camps?

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17 November

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Re: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
« Reply #73 on: March 27, 2008, 11:38:12 AM »
Quote from: Saint Raist
Pics and eyewitness testimony, first-hand perspective from live survivors.

which come apart under critical examinations.  Those who question these testimonies and examine different interpretations of certain photographs are then called anti-semitic, as usual.

  I do not know of any of these investigators who has denied that the Nazi regime persecuted the jews.  They are objective, unlike the pro-holocaust propaganda which is one sided in the extreme. 

Quote from:  
I think many people overemphasize the connection between the Holocaust and the Second World War.

I have read an analysis (by Arthur Butz) of holocaust propaganda during WWII by groups like the Jewish Agency in London and the World Jewish Congress and how they successfully used the power their propaganda had to manipulate public opinion to sway Pope Pius to their side in some of his public speeches and to sway american political figures in support of the war.  President Roosevelt himself never believed the reports of jewish killings saying of such reports that they were unconfirmed. 

I do not believe that the jewish forces mentioned were the only forces operating at the time as British intelligence figured prominently not only in the war but in the very creation of the OSS and the CIA, but the jewish propaganda did play a significant part.  What is revealing is that British intelligence was considerably downsized after the war while the influence of the jewish organizations only grew.

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17 November

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Re: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
« Reply #74 on: March 27, 2008, 03:18:00 PM »
For reference to information on this subject, here again is a list of websites with perspectives from both sides of this issue:

-----------------------------------------------

AAARGH (French language holocaust revisionism)
http://www.aaargh.com.mx/

Adelaide Institute (Frederick Toben) (anti-jewish)
http://www.adelaideinstitute.org/

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad (President of Iran)
http://www.president.ir/en/
http://www.ahmadinejad.ir/

Alabaster's Archive (anti-zionist website index)
http://www.geocities.com/alabasters_archive/index.html

American Free Press (anti-zionist newspaper)
http://www.americanfreepress.net/

American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) (zionist lobby umbrella)
http://www.aipac.org/

American Jewish Committee (zionist lobby)
http://www.ajc.org/

Americans For Middle East Understanding (AMEU) (Palestinian)
http://www.ameu.org/

Anti-Defamation League (ADL) (zionist lobby)
http://www.adl.org/

Australian League of Rights (anti-zionist)
http://www.alor.org/

Barnes Review (anti-jewish historical journal)
http://www.barnesreview.org/

Edwin Black (jewish historian)
http://www.transferagreement.com/
http://www.ibmandtheholocaust.com/
http://www.internalcombustionbook.com/
http://www.edwinblack.com/

Blacks and Jews (Louis Farrakhan)
http://www.blacksandjews.com

David Bollyn (anti-zionist journalist)
http://www.bollyn.com

Lenni Brenner (leftist anti-zionist jew)
http://www.marxists.de/middleast/brenner/

Professor Arthur Butz (engineer / holocaust revisionist writer)
http://www.codoh.com/butz/index.html

Wendy Campbell
http://www.exposingisraeliapartheid.com/

Matthias Chang (anti-zionist Malaysian statesman)

Committee For the Open Debate on the Holocaust (CODOH) (online books) http://www.codoh.com/index.shtml

David Duke 
http://www.davidduke.com/

Bobby Fischer (Reknown Chess Player)
http://www.fischer.jp/

Forward (zionist newspaper)
http://www.forward.com/

The French Connection (Daryl Bradford Smith)
http://www.iamthewitness.com

Des Griffin (american anti-jewish historian)
http://www.midnight-emissary.com/index.html

Hamas
http://www.palestine-info.co.uk/

Hezbollah
http://english.wa3ad.org/
http://www.moqawama.org/english/secretary.php
http://www.almanar.com.lb/NewsSite/News.aspx?language=en

Gerd Honsik (anti-jewish Austrian historian)
http://www.honsik.com/

Eric Hufschmid (anti-zionist engineer)

http://www.erichufschmid.net

Ratibor Jurjevic (Serbian anti-jewish Historian)
http://www.dr-jurjevic.org

Independent History / (Michael Hoffman)
http://www.revisionisthistory.org/

Institute For Historical Review (anti-jewish historical journal)
http://www.ihr.org/

Institute For Palestine Studies (Palestinian)
http://www.palestine-studies.org/

David Irving (British World War II historian)
http://www.fpp.co.uk/

The Jewish Tribal Review (anti-zionist judaism)
http://www.jewishtribalreview.org/

Jew Watch
http://www.jewwatch.com/

Jewish Publication Society (judaism and jewish history)
http://www.jewishpub.org/

JR's Rare Books
http://www.jrbooksonline.com/

USS LIBERTY Veterans Association
http://www.gtr5.com/

Norman Lowell (Maltese statesman)
http://www.vivamalta.org/main/
http://www.imperium-europa.org/

Tony Martin (anti-jewish African scholar)
http://www.blacksandjews.com/2nd.pgMartin.html http://www.blacksandjews.com/TMartin_Broadsides.html#anchor241811 http://www.themajoritypress.com/

Carlo Mattogno (anti-jewish Italian historian)
http://www.vho.org/Authors/Carlo_Mattogno.html

Mossad
http://www.mossad.gov.il/default.aspx
http://www.mossad.gov.il/Eng/AboutUs.aspx
http://www.fas.org/irp/world/israel/mossad/

Muslim Brotherhood
http://www.ikhwanweb.com/

National Alliance (Nazi)
http://www.natall.com/

National Vanguard (Nazi)
http://www.nationalvanguard.org/

Neturei Karta (anti-zionist judaism)
www.nkusa.org
www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/nk.html http://headheeb.blogmosis.com/archives/014939.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neturei_Karta
www.jewsnotzionists.org
www.jewsagainstzionism.com

Carl Nordling (Finnish architect)
http://www.carlonordling.se/index.html

Revilo P. Oliver (anti-jewish historian)
http://www.revilo-oliver.com/

Omni Christian Book Club (anti-jewish papist)
http://www.omnicbc.com/index.html

Protocols of the Elders of Zion
http://www.radioislam.org/islam/english/toread/pr-zion.htm http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/przion1.htm
http://www.aztlan.net/protocols.htm
http://www.jrbooksonline.com/HTML-docs/Protocols.htm

Radio Islam (Ahmed Rahmi / Ishmaelite)
http://www.radioislam.org

Revisionists (anti-jewish writer biographies)
http://www.revisionists.com/

Germar Rudolf (German Revisionist Historian)
http://germarrudolf.com/

Cliff Shack
http://www.geocities.com/cliff_shack/
http://www.geocities.com/cliff_shack/articles.html

Southern Poverty Law Centre (zionist hate group)
http://www.splcenter.org/

Stereoma (anti-jewish Greek bookseller)

The Truth at Last (Edward Fields)

Talmud Unmasked 
http://www.talmudunmasked.com/

Tehran Times
http://www.tehrantimes.com

Temple Institute (zionist judaism)
http://www.templeinstitute.org/

Thesis and Dissertation Press (holocaust revisionism)
http://vho.org/index2.html

Ariel Bar Tzadok (Kosher Torah / zionist judaism)
http://www.koshertorah.com/
http://koshertorah.com/PDF/KabbalahMasonsandAmerica.pdf

Simon Weisenthal Centre (zionist)
http://www.wiesenthal.com/site/pp.asp?c=fwLYKnN8LzH&b=242023

Western Safeguards Initiative (anti-zionist)
http://wsi.matriots.com/

Richard Williamson (anti-zionist, anti-Vatican LeFebvre bishop)
http://www.sspx.ca/Documents/Bishop-Williamson/index.htm

Oprah Winfrey Show (1 May 1989, NS)
(Jewish Cult Member Vicki Polin Exposes Active Multi-Generational Jewish Ritual Murder Cults)
http://www.usajewish.com/downloads/vicki-devil-worship.HTML

World Jewish Congress (zionist)
http://www.worldjewishcongress.org/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Jewish_Congress

World Zionist Organization (zionist)
http://www.jewishagency.org
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Zionist_Congress

The Zundelsite (Ernst Zundel) (holocaust revisionism)
http://www.zundelsite.org/

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17 November

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  • 1318
Re: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
« Reply #75 on: October 08, 2009, 10:49:01 AM »
Quote from: cadmium_blimp
Quote from: Dionysios
So a moderator of this forum endorses murder over a difference of opinion.

- Dionysios
How is the occurence of the Holocaust an opinion?
I was referring to the fact that people believe different things about the nature of what constitutes the jewish holocaust. 

What I believe in a nutshell is this:

The main thing that occurred to european jews during the second world war was their forced deportation (against their will) primarily to Palestine and points east which exactly what both the Nazi and zionist leaders wanted.  Generally, the most dignified jews of europe which constituted the great majority were were wrongly and severely persecuted by the Nazis and this definitely included murder on many an occasion.  The holocaust story is a fanatic ideological revisionist exagerration which serves a cover for this event as these jews still existed at the end of the war.  The majority of deported jews went from points like the Auschwitz/Birkenau concentration camps to places where they were resettled by Russia (Auschwitz is in Poland which was in the post-war Soviet zone, and also to other places most significantly america and Palestine.  This relocation of jews is the subject of 'The Dissolution of Eastern European Jewry' by Walter Sanning.
http://www.amazon.com/Dissolution-Eastern-European-Walter-Sanning/dp/0939484110

In 1940, over 90% of european jews were anti-zionist which means they were traditional assimilationists - they were content and preferred the country in which they lived and considered themselves that nationality (whether German, British, Spanish, et cetera).  Ever since dispersal by the Romans, jewish tradition always dictated that the diaspora of the jewish people is the will of God who will not return the jews until the time of the goy or gentile has ended.  This is based upon the prophet Isaiah and also accords with ancient Christian tradition.  A break from this is an indication of apostasy from jewish tradition. 
Traditional jews such as the Neturei Karta have always opposed zionism and the state of israel's existence based upon spiritual principles.  This does not at all mean that traditional jews like the Neturei Karta are fans of Hitler.  In fact, that shameful distinction actuall belongs to their arch-enemies, the zionist jews.
http://www.nkusa.org/

During the 1930's and 1940's, the zionists were still a radical fanatical minority among their brethren.  Hitler's persecution and forced deportations changed attitude.  It is no accident that Hitler is occasionally referred to as the best friend the zionists ever had. 

My second main contention is that Adolf Hitler himself and most of his closest colleagues were zionist jews who collaborated with the zionists their entire lives without fail.  Israel's founding prime minister David Ben-Gurion merely put the finishingtouches on what Hitler activated which was Hitler's childhood dream as a Viennese jewish boy - the relocation of the jews of europe to ancient Palestine - a Dream which he successfully achieved.

The strong and continual working relations of the Nazism both in Germany and of fascist countries in other european countries with the zionist movement from 1933 onwards is excellently told by the jewish author Lenni Brenner in his book 'Zionism in the Age of Dictators.'  This book shows it all.  Among many other things, two ardent jewish Nazis throughout the entirety of world war two who were terrorist associated with the Stern Gang became right wing Likud prime ministers of israel.  The are Menachem Begin and Yitzhak Shamir.
Zionism in the Age of Dictators By Lenni Brenner
http://www.marxists.de/middleast/brenner/

In spite of the fact that it accepts the holocaust story uncritically (which is not that big of a deal especially because the book does have the correct idea with reguard to deportation of european jews as the clinchpin), 'Adolf Hitler Founder of Israel:  Israel At War With the Jews' by the anti-zionist German jew Hennecke Kardel is possibly the single best book ever written on Adolf Hitler.
http://ellhn.e-e-e.gr/books/assets/founder_of_Israel.pdf

An extraordinary book from 1940 by Hansjurgen Koehler - an ex-Gestapo agent who defected to Britain - contains  great deal of information on Hitler's family which and exposed Nazi intelligence networks and their engineering of the civil war in Spain which most Spanish people were content in that they did not want a brutal war and a fascist dictator like Franco.

Inside the Gestapo:  Hitler's Shadow Over the World
By Hansjurgen Koehler
http://www.amazon.com/Inside-Gestapo-Hitlers-Shadow-World/dp/0930852397

A classic israeli non-fiction book exposing Nazi collaboration with the founders of the israeli government written by the jewish playwright Ben Hecht is entitled 'Perfidy':
http://www.fantompowa.net/Flame/kastner_judea_magazine.htm

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Mykael

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  • Professor of the Horrible Sciences
Re: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
« Reply #76 on: October 08, 2009, 01:03:34 PM »
Quote from: cadmium_blimp
Quote from: Dionysios
So a moderator of this forum endorses murder over a difference of opinion.

- Dionysios
How is the occurence of the Holocaust an opinion?
I was referring to the fact that people believe different things about the nature of what constitutes the jewish holocaust. 

What I believe in a nutshell is this:

The main thing that occurred to european jews during the second world war was their forced deportation (against their will) primarily to Palestine and points east which exactly what both the Nazi and zionist leaders wanted.  Generally, the most dignified jews of europe which constituted the great majority were were wrongly and severely persecuted by the Nazis and this definitely included murder on many an occasion.  The holocaust story is a fanatic ideological revisionist exagerration which serves a cover for this event as these jews still existed at the end of the war.  The majority of deported jews went from points like the Auschwitz/Birkenau concentration camps to places where they were resettled by Russia (Auschwitz is in Poland which was in the post-war Soviet zone, and also to other places most significantly america and Palestine.  This relocation of jews is the subject of 'The Dissolution of Eastern European Jewry' by Walter Sanning.
http://www.amazon.com/Dissolution-Eastern-European-Walter-Sanning/dp/0939484110

In 1940, over 90% of european jews were anti-zionist which means they were traditional assimilationists - they were content and preferred the country in which they lived and considered themselves that nationality (whether German, British, Spanish, et cetera).  Ever since dispersal by the Romans, jewish tradition always dictated that the diaspora of the jewish people is the will of God who will not return the jews until the time of the goy or gentile has ended.  This is based upon the prophet Isaiah and also accords with ancient Christian tradition.  A break from this is an indication of apostasy from jewish tradition. 
Traditional jews such as the Neturei Karta have always opposed zionism and the state of israel's existence based upon spiritual principles.  This does not at all mean that traditional jews like the Neturei Karta are fans of Hitler.  In fact, that shameful distinction actuall belongs to their arch-enemies, the zionist jews.
http://www.nkusa.org/

During the 1930's and 1940's, the zionists were still a radical fanatical minority among their brethren.  Hitler's persecution and forced deportations changed attitude.  It is no accident that Hitler is occasionally referred to as the best friend the zionists ever had. 

My second main contention is that Adolf Hitler himself and most of his closest colleagues were zionist jews who collaborated with the zionists their entire lives without fail.  Israel's founding prime minister David Ben-Gurion merely put the finishingtouches on what Hitler activated which was Hitler's childhood dream as a Viennese jewish boy - the relocation of the jews of europe to ancient Palestine - a Dream which he successfully achieved.

The strong and continual working relations of the Nazism both in Germany and of fascist countries in other european countries with the zionist movement from 1933 onwards is excellently told by the jewish author Lenni Brenner in his book 'Zionism in the Age of Dictators.'  This book shows it all.  Among many other things, two ardent jewish Nazis throughout the entirety of world war two who were terrorist associated with the Stern Gang became right wing Likud prime ministers of israel.  The are Menachem Begin and Yitzhak Shamir.
Zionism in the Age of Dictators By Lenni Brenner
http://www.marxists.de/middleast/brenner/

In spite of the fact that it accepts the holocaust story uncritically (which is not that big of a deal especially because the book does have the correct idea with reguard to deportation of european jews as the clinchpin), 'Adolf Hitler Founder of Israel:  Israel At War With the Jews' by the anti-zionist German jew Hennecke Kardel is possibly the single best book ever written on Adolf Hitler.
http://ellhn.e-e-e.gr/books/assets/founder_of_Israel.pdf

An extraordinary book from 1940 by Hansjurgen Koehler - an ex-Gestapo agent who defected to Britain - contains  great deal of information on Hitler's family which and exposed Nazi intelligence networks and their engineering of the civil war in Spain which most Spanish people were content in that they did not want a brutal war and a fascist dictator like Franco.

Inside the Gestapo:  Hitler's Shadow Over the World
By Hansjurgen Koehler
http://www.amazon.com/Inside-Gestapo-Hitlers-Shadow-World/dp/0930852397

A classic israeli non-fiction book exposing Nazi collaboration with the founders of the israeli government written by the jewish playwright Ben Hecht is entitled 'Perfidy':
http://www.fantompowa.net/Flame/kastner_judea_magazine.htm
And the point of digging up a year and a half old thread is....?

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17 November

  • Flat Earth Believer
  • 1318
Re: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
« Reply #77 on: October 08, 2009, 06:41:24 PM »
Quote from: cadmium_blimp
Quote from: Dionysios
So a moderator of this forum endorses murder over a difference of opinion.

- Dionysios
How is the occurence of the Holocaust an opinion?

Quote from: Mykael
And the point of digging up a year and a half old thread is....?

I just needed a little time to think over the question.

Out of sincere respect for all those who suffered and for our own sakes, I believe the truth of the matter is well worth the time.

*

Raist

  • The Elder Ones
  • 30590
  • The cat in the Matrix
Re: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
« Reply #78 on: October 08, 2009, 06:57:42 PM »
And jews did 9/11.

 ::)

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Proleg

Re: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
« Reply #79 on: October 08, 2009, 07:15:40 PM »
Israel's founding prime minister David Ben-Gurion merely put the finishingtouches on what Hitler activated which was Hitler's childhood dream as a Viennese jewish boy - the relocation of the jews of europe to ancient Palestine - a Dream which he successfully achieved.
Is it bad that I'm laughing in a Holocaust thread?

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Raist

  • The Elder Ones
  • 30590
  • The cat in the Matrix
Re: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
« Reply #80 on: October 08, 2009, 08:37:36 PM »
I just want to ask, do you really think the holocaust was just a violent relocation of jewish people where some murder and death occurred?

I think there are enough independent accounts of jewish enslavement, starvation, abuse, experimentation, and other basic human rights to show that it was much more than relocation.

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17 November

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Re: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
« Reply #81 on: October 08, 2009, 09:10:50 PM »
Quote from: Raist
I just want to ask, do you really think the holocaust was "JUST" just a violent relocation of jewish people where some murder and death occurred?
I would not have included the word "just" if I was making the statement, but I do believe that the forced relocation is the most essential part of the story.

Quote from: Raist
I think there are enough independent accounts of jewish enslavement, starvation, abuse, experimentation, and other basic human rights to show that it was much more than relocation.

I do not have a problem with that, and I admire and share your respect for the weak. 
I generally agree.  After listening to all sides, I would say that some details like gas chambers I believe are fabrications, but my sympathy is with the jews and not their persecutors. 

I concur with the opinion of the jewish writer Norman Finkelstein that a huge and corrupt holocaust industry exists to make money out of peoples' misery and this is reprehensible.
http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/

The Holocaust Industry By Norman Finkelstein
http://books.google.com/books?id=VrqK5VdO2i0C&dq=norman+finkelstein+holocaust+industry&printsec=frontcover&source=bn&hl=en&ei=0LbOSp2IEpGoMcmtuZQD&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CBMQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=&f=false

May I ask your opinion of the modern israeli state?

Re: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
« Reply #82 on: October 08, 2009, 09:13:28 PM »
Quote from: Raist
I just want to ask, do you really think the holocaust was "JUST" just a violent relocation of jewish people where some murder and death occurred?
I would not have included the word "just" if I was making the statement, but I do believe that is the most essential part of the story.

Quote from: Raist
I think there are enough independent accounts of jewish enslavement, starvation, abuse, experimentation, and other basic human rights to show that it was much more than relocation.

I do not have a problem with that, and I admire and share your respect for the weak. 

May I ask your opinion of the modern israeli state?
A. I based on evidence think that there is little to no chance that most of them relocated. that is what the Germans tried first. when they had trouble getting rid of them they started to kill them.

As for Israel who the hell thought it was a good idea to make in a area where every one will hate them and try to destroy them.
I don't care if it is there holy land. couldn't they have found a place where less people would be killed.
You can't outrun death forever
But you can sure make the old bastard work for it.

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Raist

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Re: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
« Reply #83 on: October 08, 2009, 09:27:15 PM »
Quote from: Raist
I just want to ask, do you really think the holocaust was "JUST" just a violent relocation of jewish people where some murder and death occurred?
I would not have included the word "just" if I was making the statement, but I do believe that the forced relocation is the most essential part of the story.

Quote from: Raist
I think there are enough independent accounts of jewish enslavement, starvation, abuse, experimentation, and other basic human rights to show that it was much more than relocation.

I do not have a problem with that, and I admire and share your respect for the weak. 
I generally agree.  After listening to all sides, I would say that some details like gas chambers I believe are fabrications, but my sympathy is with the jews and not their persecutors. 

I concur with the opinion of the jewish writer Norman Finkelstein that a huge and corrupt holocaust industry exists to make money out of peoples' misery and this is reprehensible.
http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/

The Holocaust Industry By Norman Finkelstein
http://books.google.com/books?id=VrqK5VdO2i0C&dq=norman+finkelstein+holocaust+industry&printsec=frontcover&source=bn&hl=en&ei=0LbOSp2IEpGoMcmtuZQD&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CBMQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=&f=false

May I ask your opinion of the modern israeli state?

I have very few opinion's politically on the establishment of the Israeli state, it is no more valid than any other country and no less valid than any other country considering their origins.

It is in my opinion a convenient stronghold for the U.S. in the region so we fund their humongous military budget since it is no longer acceptable to conquer a country and then annex it as a military colony.

I think the holocaust is real simply because there has been so little gain from it. As well as the extensive records that hitler kept about all of the affairs of the war.

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17 November

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Re: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
« Reply #84 on: November 03, 2009, 01:34:50 AM »
Quote from: optimisticcynic
I based on evidence think that there is little to no chance that most of them relocated. that is what the Germans tried first. when they had trouble getting rid of them they started to kill them.
The other plans like the ridiculous one to ship european jews to Madagascar fell through because the Germans lost North Africa by 1943.  Hitler never gave up trying to send jews to Palestine, and his biggest obstacle during the war were the British who threatened to and did sink boats of european jews coming to Palestine during the war.  

The determining factor at Auschwitz was capitalist greed.  The large camp at Auschwitz was a prisoner of war facility that was turned into a major industrial facility in 1941 where the labor was cheap.  Major corporations like I.G. Farben set up factories at the Auschwitz camp which was run by the SS.  Farben and the other companies paid the SS for the labor per person per day.  The SS kept most of the money and grudgingly spent as little as possible on prisoner food and other necessities.  The finances were directed by the ruthless (and characteristically capitalist) SS general Pohl, and demonstrate that Nazism is a product of capitalism which should give sober thoughts to so many brainwashed westerners who stupidly and wrongly identify capitalism with freedom.  Capitalism actually leads to slavery as Hilaire Belloc argued in 'The Servile State' back in 1911, and the history of Nazism confirms it.  Another excellent work in this area is Edwin Black's 'IBM and the Holocaust.'

Many prisoners died because of this neglect, but the numbers were grossly inflated by propagandists during the cold war who had no clue as to the true numbers which were captured by the Soviets in 1945 when the captured the headquarters of the camp system.  The total number of dead (including non-jews) at Auschwitz of all causes was about 70,000.  Hitler never issued an order to exterminate jews.  That is not to deny that he was racist and unwarrantedly rough in the extreme against european jews.  The real jew haters were Propaganda Minister and Berlin City Chief Goebbels as well as Himmler's Lieutenant Kaltenbrunner.  SS Chief Himmler himself was not as intellectually anti-jewish like Goebbels, but was very much like a politician and went with the flow to stay in power.  The anti-jewish racists who did cause murderer of some jews consisted mostly of SS men such as Kaltenbrunner, Goebbels, and Martin Bormann (Hitler's chief of staff).  The Wehrmacht was the regular army and was largely anti-Hitler even while the war was still going on.  The Wehrmacht and the SS were therefore very different.  Luftwaffe Chief Goering was sympathetic to the jews, and the Luftwaffe was not caught up in the anti-jewish business.

There was no murder by gassing at Auschwitz.  There was delousing of clothes.  The only place where gassing of jews to death did in fact occur was in Lublin.  Zyklon B (a disinfectant) was not the agent.  Cyanide was used.  The story of Lublin is as follows:

The Slovene SS general Odilo Globocnik was made governor of Vienna, Austria after the Anschluss of 1938.  Globocnik was a thief who used his office to steal money.  When Hitler heard about it, he fired him, but Himmler gave him a job as the camp commander in Lublin, Poland.  Globocnik simply had large numbers of jews at his camp murdered so that he could steal their money.  His motivation was not anti-jewism.  When Himmler found out about this, he did not fire him for fear of Hitler finding out about it as the backlash could have resulted in Himmler losing his job.  Himmler's position completely depended on Hitler's good graces.  As a result of Himmler's nervousness about touching the matter, Globocnik continued as camp commander at Lublin.  

Kurt Gerstein is usually cited as a hero of the anti-German resistance, but he was in fact the individual that invented the plan of constructing a building at the Lublin camp with only one airtight door and a valve on the roof.  This plan was approved by Globocnik, and the building was constructed.  Gerstein was the individual who poured the cyanide down the hole in the roof and then quickly covered it each time many jews were locked inside.  Gerstein had a history of protestant religious hysteria and drifted from sect to sect.  As the gassing proceeded, Gerstein's conscience finally snapped.  He convinced himself to tell as many people about it as possible leaving his own name out of it and greatly enlarging the story.  He went around Berlin telling people that Hitler had personally witnessed mass killings at Auschwitz which was a lie.  Gerstein was placed in an asylum, and was later released to a small town in west Germany.  In 1945 when the Americans were only a few miles away, fearing that he would be blamed for the gassing of jews at Lublin, Gerstein judged himelf by hanging himself.  No gassing occurred other than in the Lublin camp.  

So neither extreme of the controversy is actually correct.  The Nazis persecuted the jews, but certain aspects of it have been much exagerrated and distorted.  

Anyone who thinks that I excuse Hitler, should take at look at my comments about Hitler at the pro-Nazi Stormfront website which obviously but sadly anger quite a few.
http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?t=496584&page=25
http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?t=496584&page=22
« Last Edit: November 03, 2009, 01:38:29 AM by 17 November »

Re: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
« Reply #85 on: November 03, 2009, 10:48:03 PM »
If Holocaust wasn't allowed to happen and be documented very well during WW2, who were behind the destruction of Europe couldn't convince millions of Jews from all over the world to gather in the innovative military base (called 'Israel', a historical nation whose power was compared to the power of ONE man called Jesus Christ!).
And thanks to this very clever idea, those Elites (on power) were able to control the resources of Middle East (taken from France and UK just after WW2) till our days.
So thanks to the big propaganda about what is called "Holocaust", the Jews had and still have no way but to obey their big bosses who are supporting and funding the military base 'Israel' since its creation and which was prepared just for them.
In fact, many Jews couldn't realize this simple truth till the last war in July 2006.
But, practically speaking, people in almost all countries are powerless and not only in Israel... we just need to look around and see what is happening to people in America, Europe, Middle East, Africa, Far East...
The Elites of the world (found in all governments) see all these peoples as sheep while driving them the way they like (this became rather easy by the hi-tech media) hence selling them more weapons and taking from them more taxes for protection.
May I add that 'Holocaust' has been substituted now by 'Terror against civilians' which is scaring to death all peoples and not only the Jews since 9-11 2001. Another genius idea by the world's Elites!

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Raist

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Re: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
« Reply #86 on: November 04, 2009, 06:36:35 PM »
English, do you speak it?

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
« Reply #87 on: November 04, 2009, 08:24:33 PM »
I didn't read through the entire thread but, my question: is what happened to the Jews in the holocaust any different or somehow worse than what the Americans and Colonists did to the American Indians?

A friend of mine (who is sioux), who is a historian told me that the number will never be fully known, but it is estimated over 100 million indians were slaughtered over 150 years by the U.S. (after the revolution).  If that is true than it is substantially more than the death toll due to the holocaust.

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Raist

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Re: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
« Reply #88 on: November 05, 2009, 03:05:14 PM »
I didn't read through the entire thread but, my question: is what happened to the Jews in the holocaust any different or somehow worse than what the Americans and Colonists did to the American Indians?

A friend of mine (who is sioux), who is a historian told me that the number will never be fully known, but it is estimated over 100 million indians were slaughtered over 150 years by the U.S. (after the revolution).  If that is true than it is substantially more than the death toll due to the holocaust.

There is a difference between rounding up civilians and murdering them and two civilizations clashing.

The treatment may have been similar, but lack of documentation, and lack of racial understandings make it impossible for anyone to know about it or feel the same sense of wrongness.

Another large difference is the fact that the indians and american people were fighting an active war against each other, the indians would willingly sign up for other countries and fight against us etc. The killing of the jews was a systematic rounding up, and genocide.

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
« Reply #89 on: November 05, 2009, 08:42:26 PM »
Sure there are differences.  My point is, what was done to the Indians, and the justification for it, was nothing less than genocide.  Manifest destiny sounds a lot like Hitlers motive to purge what he believed to be lesser people from this world.  Also, America's genocide was much more effective than the holocaust.  Not only did we kill more, but the Indian culture is all but gone, where as the Jews were given their own country and are seen around the world.  We broke every single treaty we ever made with the Indians, and we are now living in the land that is rightfully theirs, legally, according to the treaties that we violated.  Their war against us was a defense of their culture, all attacks they made against us were reactionary to our actions against them.

There have been worse cases of genocide in history.  American's killing off the Indians because we believe we were culturally superior is just one example.

P.S.:  incredibly drunk right now, so I may edit this post in the morning, but that is my general opinion.