Where did all the clouds go?

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: Where did all the clouds go?
« Reply #120 on: August 08, 2007, 12:12:13 PM »
Well, you're the first i've debated with to hold that view. Tom seems convinced it's the Antarctic ice shelf.

Tom is just an idiot.  The Ross Ice Shelf can't possibly perform the function that the FE ice wall would have to serve and he really should have figured that out by now.  No matter what you think of how serious he is, the fact that he clings to this argument just goes to show how intellectually-challenged Tom really is.

The 40,000 foot ice wall has been in some people's arguments, including Dogplatter's, since before I came on here.
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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Ferdinand Magellen

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Re: Where did all the clouds go?
« Reply #121 on: August 08, 2007, 12:17:40 PM »
I've been around for a fewmonths, dogplatter, and this is the first i've seen you online.
Ignoring the truth does not make it go away, it just makes you ignorant and disempowered.

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Gulliver

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Re: Where did all the clouds go?
« Reply #122 on: August 08, 2007, 01:23:09 PM »
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Again you're arguing that air won't move from high pressure to low pressure--because the low pressure is too low. That's like arguing that Lake Erie won't flow to Lake Ontario because the drop over Niagara Falls is too steep.

Now lets take this one step at a time. Lets start afresh.

SINCE the North Pole can maintain its low pressures (whatever the cause may be) despite being surrounded by a high-pressure equator, THEN so can Antarctica.

SINCE the equator can remain high pressured while the North Pole remains low pressured (whatever the case may be), THEN so can Antarctica.

I have seen no coherent rebuttals demonstrating why this cannot be the case.
Non sequitur. The North Pole is not Antarctica. The NP is a point. Antarctica is a 70,000+ mile long area with a vast unpressurized expanse to its "south". They are not the same; they need not behave the same.

Likewise for the Equator and Antarctica. The Equator receives a great deal more heat from the Sun than does Antarctica. The Equator is shorter.

Finally, you err in arguing that since something is true then it must be true in FE. That is faulty reasoning. Yes, the atmosphere remains. Yes, Antarctica remains colder. Yes, Antarctica has an atmosphere. Yes, the NP remains colder. Yes, the NP has an atmosphere. However, none of these things need to be true on FE.

You fail.

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sokarul

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Re: Where did all the clouds go?
« Reply #123 on: August 08, 2007, 01:52:16 PM »
The north pole doesn't hold low pressure all the time.  Cold air from the north comes down all the time in winter. 
There is also wind at the poles. 
ANNIHILATOR OF  SHIFTER

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Fokakya

Re: Where did all the clouds go?
« Reply #124 on: August 08, 2007, 01:59:45 PM »
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But Tom, according to your model, the air would flow towards the ice wall, and continue to move past the ice wall.  It wouldn't just stay there...the point is the system would be losing air.

As the system loses air it also gains air from the currents which originate from the Ice Wall. There must be a balance; the equator cannot deplete it's air reserves because the temperature of the environment demands that the equator have a certain set pressure.

Therefore; as the equator looses pressure from high moving into low in one area the equator also takes some excess pressure from the poles in another area.

The system never gains or looses air; there is a perpetual cycle which constantly replenishes the equator and poles.

Questions:

If air is always moving from the equator (high pressure) to the North Pole (low pressure), why doesn't the equator deplete itself into the North Pole and the two areas equalize?

Why are there air currents which originate from a low pressure environment (North Pole) into a high pressure environment (North America, Europe) ?

I have a feeling I won't be able to convince you of this, but the Earth's atmosphere cannot be considered a closed system, like a sealed canister would. There is too much space and no physical barrier for the pressure to push against. Not to mention the fact that the atmosphere's composition is constantly changing due to photosynthesis, respiration and many industrial processes.

Air is always moving, but that doesn't necessarily mean from the equator to the poles. The relative differences in pressure between the poles and the equator is partly due to temperature differences but also largely due to physical processes affecting the earth due to its spinning. In the 1700s, the French Academy of Sciences dispatched two expeditions. One expedition under Pierre Louis Maupertuis (1736-37) was sent to Lapland (as far North as possible). The second mission under Pierre Bouguer was sent to what is modern-day Ecuador, near the equator (1735-44). The purpose of this mission was to measuring, for a number of points on earth, the relationship between their distance (in north-south direction) and the angles between their astronomical verticals (the projection of the vertical direction on the sky). The result of these measurements was the conclusion that the earth is not in fact spherical but oblong in shape due to the speed at which it spins and the centrifugal forces it is subjected to. To this end, the atmosphere is affected in the same way, possibly to a higher degree due to its fluid nature. The constant spinning of the earth causes the atmosphere to collect (on relative terms) along the equator, thus causing overall higher pressure (also due to the higher temperature but we'll get to that in a second). This same force causes the atmosphere to be less dense at the poles. The reason the overall pressure differences stay this way is because the centrifugal force is great enough to overcome the overall tendency for air to move from high to low pressure environments.
However, in the troposphere especially, there is still enough variation in temperature and air pressure to cause air movement. Another reason that the atmosphere does not displace itself to the poles and stay there is because there are relatively low and high pressures within both the poles and the equator that allow for movement in both directions. As the air is heated along the equator, it rises due to it's decrease in density. As this warm air rushes up into the atmosphere, a low pressure area is left along the surface. Cooler air from the surrounding areas rushes to the equator to fill this low pressure area, becomes heated, rises and continues the cycle. The same is true for the poles. The warmer air in the upper atmosphere begins to cool and condense. This causes it to fall toward the surface. The increase in pressure from this cooler air falling forces the air on the surface away and thus creates the arctic winds that cool us so much in North America. Those winds continue to warmer areas, gain energy, rise up and once again continue the same cycle.
The earth's atmosphere is constantly trying to equalize itself but it is influenced by so many factors (solar radiation, human activity, photosynthesis) that it can never happen. I have just fully explained one of the main driving forces of Earth's weather (the other is moisture differences). The problem that you are faced with, as FE believers, is that for weather to exist on the scale that it does and in the way that it does requires a round earth that allows the free flow of atmosphere in ALL directions.

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: Where did all the clouds go?
« Reply #125 on: August 08, 2007, 04:52:12 PM »
I've been around for a fewmonths, dogplatter, and this is the first i've seen you online.

You've been registered for less than a month.
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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Ferdinand Magellen

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Re: Where did all the clouds go?
« Reply #126 on: August 08, 2007, 04:53:58 PM »
really? Cool. I thought I started in June, but I guess it was late july. Time is a bugger.
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Marinade

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Re: Where did all the clouds go?
« Reply #127 on: August 08, 2007, 07:57:41 PM »
SINCE the North Pole can maintain its low pressures (whatever the cause may be) despite being surrounded by a high-pressure equator, THEN so can Antarctica.

SINCE the equator can remain high pressured while the North Pole remains low pressured (whatever the case may be), THEN so can Antarctica.

I have seen no coherent rebuttals demonstrating why this cannot be the case.

Non sequitur. The North Pole is not Antarctica. The NP is a point. Antarctica is a 70,000+ mile long area with a vast unpressurized expanse to its "south". They are not the same; they need not behave the same.

Likewise for the Equator and Antarctica. The Equator receives a great deal more heat from the Sun than does Antarctica. The Equator is shorter.

Finally, you err in arguing that since something is true then it must be true in FE. That is faulty reasoning. Yes, the atmosphere remains. Yes, Antarctica remains colder. Yes, Antarctica has an atmosphere. Yes, the NP remains colder. Yes, the NP has an atmosphere. However, none of these things need to be true on FE.

You fail.

I think you did not point out the biggest way in which Tom has failed in this regard. It actually fits quite nicely as you point out, Antarctica on a flat earth is not the same as the NP on the flat Earth, but it is on a round Earth. So therefore, because Tom is using argument that can only be held true for a round Earth (Antarctica is a point on a round Earth; so it should, and does, act much like the Arctic.) to prove a flat Earth, is, well, you decide.
Haha Tom is so funny. He can't be serious, no one is that stubborn or dumb.

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Gulliver

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Re: Where did all the clouds go?
« Reply #128 on: August 08, 2007, 08:01:31 PM »
SINCE the North Pole can maintain its low pressures (whatever the cause may be) despite being surrounded by a high-pressure equator, THEN so can Antarctica.

SINCE the equator can remain high pressured while the North Pole remains low pressured (whatever the case may be), THEN so can Antarctica.

I have seen no coherent rebuttals demonstrating why this cannot be the case.

Non sequitur. The North Pole is not Antarctica. The NP is a point. Antarctica is a 70,000+ mile long area with a vast unpressurized expanse to its "south". They are not the same; they need not behave the same.

Likewise for the Equator and Antarctica. The Equator receives a great deal more heat from the Sun than does Antarctica. The Equator is shorter.

Finally, you err in arguing that since something is true then it must be true in FE. That is faulty reasoning. Yes, the atmosphere remains. Yes, Antarctica remains colder. Yes, Antarctica has an atmosphere. Yes, the NP remains colder. Yes, the NP has an atmosphere. However, none of these things need to be true on FE.

You fail.

I think you did not point out the biggest way in which Tom has failed in this regard. It actually fits quite nicely as you point out, Antarctica on a flat earth is not the same as the NP on the flat Earth, but it is on a round Earth. So therefore, because Tom is using argument that can only be held true for a round Earth (Antarctica is a point on a round Earth; so it should, and does, act much like the Arctic.) to prove a flat Earth, is, well, you decide.
Concur. Good catch.

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: Where did all the clouds go?
« Reply #129 on: August 08, 2007, 08:07:51 PM »
I'm assuming that Tom is arguing that the North Pole and Antarctica behave this way because of their distance from the equator - the same in both models.  What Marinade is saying is therefore a straw man since it's because of their proximity from the equator that they are low-pressure zones.  Tom's argument makes perfect sense if seen from this point of view, even on a FE.
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Marinade

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Re: Where did all the clouds go?
« Reply #130 on: August 08, 2007, 11:43:09 PM »
But distance from the equator does not make them the same. It doesn't take into account the giant ring of no pressure surrounding the antarctic; into which the atmosphere should be flowing, even if it is at low temperature and pressure. Gas is always more dense than no gas, and if there is a greater density of gas near the middle it will push outward. No slow gradient drop in pressure is going to change that. If anything it only encourages the idea that it flows away as it's been getting father away and the end is the least dense as it is flowing away.

I also like Tom's argument that the atmosphere will reach an equilibrium with the vacuum of space. That's great, there's still going to be gas with higher pressure behind that pushing it outward; that is not at equilibrium with it.

His assumption does not fit with a flat Earth because they are not the same. If one property is the same, having that mean something as complex as climate will act the same way is not logical. [Tom think]We see that they do act the same way, therefore, it has to happen. And since we've already proven the Earth flat we must conclude that I am right.[/Tom think]
Haha Tom is so funny. He can't be serious, no one is that stubborn or dumb.

Re: Where did all the clouds go?
« Reply #131 on: August 09, 2007, 06:50:04 AM »

Finally, you err in arguing that since something is true then it must be true in FE. That is faulty reasoning. Yes, the atmosphere remains. Yes, Antarctica remains colder. Yes, Antarctica has an atmosphere. Yes, the NP remains colder. Yes, the NP has an atmosphere. However, none of these things need to be true on FE.

You fail.

Great point.

I'm curious as to how the ice wall acts as a seal against the vacuum of space, does the atmosphere (err atmosplane) go outside the ice wall too?  Or does it meet on the top of the ice wall, and also how thick is it?
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The Communist

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Re: Where did all the clouds go?
« Reply #132 on: August 09, 2007, 08:29:54 AM »
My explanation was better and contained less BS

Sorry. but my theory is more BS and thus a better explanation: Equivalence Principle.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2007, 09:39:10 AM by The Kommunist »
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The Communist

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Re: Where did all the clouds go?
« Reply #133 on: August 09, 2007, 09:11:27 AM »
Dr. Samuel Birley Rowbotham held that knowing the true dimensions of the Earth is something which will be forever be unknowable by man.

Be more optimistic Tom! Maybe not today, but in the distant future...


ITs going to be hard to fly a craft that produces enough lift within such a low-pressure environment.  That craft would have to be at such a high altitude to be in a stationary orbit, which would not exist on an infinite flat earth.
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The Communist

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Re: Where did all the clouds go?
« Reply #134 on: August 09, 2007, 09:31:28 AM »
According to Gay-Lussac's Law high pressure cannot exist in a low temperature environment.

What evidence do you have contradicting the basic laws of gas physics?

Actually, high pressures can exist under low temperatures depending on density if the mass is high or volume is low according to the Ideal Gas Law.

edit - Gay-Lussac's Law only works when density remains constant.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2007, 09:35:48 AM by The Kommunist »
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Ferdinand Magellen

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Re: Where did all the clouds go?
« Reply #135 on: August 09, 2007, 09:32:38 AM »
pv=nrt !
Ignoring the truth does not make it go away, it just makes you ignorant and disempowered.

Can you change reality by inventing new names for ordinary things?

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The Communist

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Re: Where did all the clouds go?
« Reply #136 on: August 09, 2007, 09:37:55 AM »
pv=nrt !

Indeed. Tis is the most used formula I have used in my Thermodynamics and Fluid Dynamics class so it must provide more importance thus more authority over Gay-Lussac's Law.
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Yeah I love gay porn.

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The Communist

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Re: Where did all the clouds go?
« Reply #137 on: August 09, 2007, 09:47:34 AM »
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Gases aren't "unpressurized". That's malarkey!

If we take a canister of air from the equator, bring it to the North Pole, open the bottle, will the air inside not escape and cool to the surrounding environment?

The sealed container with the equatorial air will condense or increase in density when moved to the North pole due to heat convection, but pressure would remain the same.
On FES, you attack a strawman. In Soviet Russia, the strawman attacks you
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Yeah I love gay porn.

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sokarul

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Re: Where did all the clouds go?
« Reply #138 on: August 09, 2007, 11:02:20 AM »
ANNIHILATOR OF  SHIFTER

It's no slur if it's fact.

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The Communist

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Re: Where did all the clouds go?
« Reply #139 on: August 09, 2007, 11:14:07 AM »
pv=nrt !

Welcome to page 4. 

I posted after reading the first page.  I really should read throughout before posting. I pulled Tom-Bishop.
On FES, you attack a strawman. In Soviet Russia, the strawman attacks you
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Yeah I love gay porn.