Where did all the clouds go?

This is just stupid. You've stated that for a given STP volume of air, the increasing its temperature gives higher pressure. We know that gas moves from high to low pressure whenever it can. You've argued that beyond the Ice Wall that the temperature is very low. Hence the atmosphere will move over the Ice Wall. To argue that the gradients is too large is to argue that water won't flow over a cliff because the cliff is too steep. We've been over this many times.

Actually it's your incoherent rebuttals that repeatedly fail. A little research would verify that temperature is connected to pressure and vice versa.

The North Pole has LOW temperatures and LOW pressure. Why don't the HIGH pressures of the equator move into the LOW pressures of the North Pole?

This argument repeatedly defeats any "rebuttal" you have. You will either need to show evidence which contradicts the Gay-Lussac's Law or evidence that the North Pole has high pressure in a low pressure environment. Otherwise simply saying "you are wrong" will do no good. You will need to demonstrate your case, and why Modern Physics is wrong that there exists a connection between temperature and pressure.

Otherwise please stop posting.

The last statement is wrong. Nature abhors a vacuum. The atmosphere will move towards the "zero pressure" carrying its warmth with it. Your explanation is simply miserably wrong.

According to Gay-Lussac's Law high pressure cannot exist in a low temperature environment.

What evidence do you have contradicting the basic laws of gas physics?

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Can you elaborate on this?

We can agree that beyond the antarctic coast into the pitch black uncharted tundra, beyond the spotlight of the sun, that temperatures will gradually decrease, correct?

Well, from basic physics we know that gases have various properties that we can observe with our senses, including the gas pressure (p), temperature (T), mass, and the volume that contains the gas. Careful, scientific observation has determined that these variables are related to one another and that the values of these properties determine the state of the gas.

p/T= constant

In a scientific manner, we can fix any two of the four primary properties and study the nature of the relationship between the other two by varying one and observing the variation of the other.

In the following schematic we see the effect of changing pressure on temperature. The pressure can be changed by adding or removing green weights from the top of the red piston. Ergo when we change the pressure of an environment we change the temperature.

In the following schematic we see the effect of changing temperature on pressure. The temperature is changed by adding heat from the torch. The volume is held constant with the piston. Ergo when we change the temperature of an environment we change the pressure.

Hence, we see that in an environment with zero temperature there is zero pressure. With zero pressure, winds cannot move from one area to the next. Zero pressure is a vacuum.

I don't get it; are you saying that the atmosphere is at 0 temperature even nowhere near the ice wall but at the very top of the atmosphere, all the way around?  Are you saying we're literally encased in a 0 temperature atmosphere bubble?

I don't get it; are you saying that the atmosphere is at 0 temperature even nowhere near the ice wall but at the very top of the atmosphere, all the way around?  Are you saying we're literally encased in a 0 temperature atmosphere bubble?

Yes. At a large distance beyond the coast of the Ice Wall where the rays of the sun do not reach, where the icy tundra lays in pitch blackness, the atmosphere is contained by very low temperatures which naturally decrease without the warm light of the sun. Perhaps temperatures do not reach Zero Kelvin, but something approaching it.

This gradient of pressure is what contains the atmosphere. High pressures from our local area cannot move into a low temperature environment due to the laws I've already linked and explained. If you believe something contradictory to the basic laws of gas physics please reference some evidence.

If temperatures were that low all around us the energy from the sun would never reach us.  You're a retard. 

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This is just stupid. You've stated that for a given STP volume of air, the increasing its temperature gives higher pressure. We know that gas moves from high to low pressure whenever it can. You've argued that beyond the Ice Wall that the temperature is very low. Hence the atmosphere will move over the Ice Wall. To argue that the gradients is too large is to argue that water won't flow over a cliff because the cliff is too steep. We've been over this many times.

Actually it's your incoherent rebuttals that repeatedly fail. A little research would verify that temperature is connected to pressure and vice versa.

The North Pole has LOW temperatures and LOW pressure. Why don't the HIGH pressures of the equator move into the LOW pressures of the North Pole?

This argument repeatedly defeats any "rebuttal" you have. You will either need to show evidence which contradicts the Gay-Lussac's Law or evidence that the North Pole has high pressure in a low pressure environment. Otherwise simply saying "you are wrong" will do no good. You will need to demonstrate your case, and why Modern Physics is wrong that there exists a connection between temperature and pressure.

Otherwise please stop posting.

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The last statement is wrong. Nature abhors a vacuum. The atmosphere will move towards the "zero pressure" carrying its warmth with it. Your explanation is simply miserably wrong.

According to Gay-Lussac's Law high pressure cannot exist in a low temperature environment.

What evidence do you have contradicting the basic laws of gas physics?

Pshaw! You're an idiot. The high pressure does move to low pressure, every minute of every day. It's called "weather". The Sun renews that higher temperatures and the higher pressure keeping the weather active.

Gases move from high pressure to low pressure in every experiment ever done in the testing of gas laws. You have exactly nothing to back up your claim that the higher gradients would prevent the atmosphere from moving to lower pressure. You fail miserably.

Here's an experiment for you. Inflate a party balloon by blowing some of your hot air into it. I'm sure you have plenty to spare. Then let go of the balloon. The balloon with its higher pressure deflates, just like your argument.

High pressure moves to low pressure. This is common sense. How are we stuck on this point?

High pressure moves to low pressure. This is common sense. How are we stuck on this point?

No one, to my knowledge, has ever accused TomB as having common sense.

High pressure moves to low pressure. This is common sense. How are we stuck on this point?

Gay-Lussac's Gas Law. Look it up.

Gases move from high pressure to low pressure in every experiment ever done in the testing of gas laws. You have exactly nothing to back up your claim that the higher gradients would prevent the atmosphere from moving to lower pressure. You fail miserably.

WRONG again Gulliver. Did you click on the Gay-Lussac's Law link?

It defines the law mathematically as p/T = constant or p₁/T₁ = p₂/T₂

Example 1:

Question: Consider a container with a volume of 22.4 L filled with a gas at 1.00 atm at 273 K. What will be the new pressure if the temperature increases to 298 K?

Solution: Using Gay-Lussac's Law and solving for p2 we get:


           p₁T₂                 (1.00 atm)(298 K)
    p₂ = -----          p₂ = -----------------
            T₁                         (273 K)
   

Or, p₂ = 1.09 atm

Note: When the temperature increases, the pressure increases!
Also note that it is essential to use temperature on an absolute scale (i.e. use Kelvin instead of oC!


Ergo, using this formula lets make our own Example 2:

Question: Consider a container with a volume of 22.4 L filled with a gas at 1.00 atm at 273 K. What will be the new pressure if the temperature decreases to 0 K?

Solution: Using Gay-Lussac's Law and solving for p2 we get:

           p₁T₂                 (1.00 atm)(0 K)
    p₂ = -----          p₂ = -----------------
            T₁                         (273 K)
   

Or, p₂ = 0 atm

Note: When the temperature decreases, the pressure decreases!


Now Gulliver, please prove to us that the Gay-Lussac's Gas Law is wrong. That the math here is mistaken. That your opinion over trumps modern physics. We're all waiting for you.

The temperature lowers the pressure, but then the warmer/more dense air needs a place to go, so it goes to the colder/less dense air...You can't look at half the problem and see the solution.

The temperature lowers the pressure, but then the warmer/more dense air needs a place to go, so it goes to the colder/less dense air...You can't look at half the problem and see the solution.

Well put!

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High pressure moves to low pressure. This is common sense. How are we stuck on this point?

Gay-Lussac's Gas Law. Look it up.

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Gases move from high pressure to low pressure in every experiment ever done in the testing of gas laws. You have exactly nothing to back up your claim that the higher gradients would prevent the atmosphere from moving to lower pressure. You fail miserably.

WRONG again Gulliver. Did you click on the Gay-Lussac's Law link?

It defines the law mathematically as p/T = constant or p₁/T₁ = p₂/T₂

Example 1:

Question: Consider a container with a volume of 22.4 L filled with a gas at 1.00 atm at 273 K. What will be the new pressure if the temperature increases to 298 K?

Solution: Using Gay-Lussac's Law and solving for p2 we get:


           p₁T₂                 (1.00 atm)(298 K)
    p₂ = -----          p₂ = -----------------
            T₁                         (273 K)
   

Or, p₂ = 1.09 atm

Note: When the temperature increases, the pressure increases!
Also note that it is essential to use temperature on an absolute scale (i.e. use Kelvin instead of oC!


Ergo, using this formula lets make our own Example 2:

Question: Consider a container with a volume of 22.4 L filled with a gas at 1.00 atm at 273 K. What will be the new pressure if the temperature decreases to 0 K?

Solution: Using Gay-Lussac's Law and solving for p2 we get:

           p₁T₂                 (1.00 atm)(0 K)
    p₂ = -----          p₂ = -----------------
            T₁                         (273 K)
   

Or, p₂ = 0 atm

Note: When the temperature decreases, the pressure decreases!

-

Now Gulliver, please prove to us that the Gay-Lussac's Gas Law is wrong. That the math here is mistaken. That your opinion over trumps modern physics. We're all waiting for you.

You can quote all the gas laws and associated experiments you like. You still haven't shown that the party balloon doesn't deflate. Nothing in the gas laws says that high pressure won't move to low pressure. You can also test this yourself. Step outside. Feel the wind. That's the atmosphere moving due to pressure gradients. I'm safe and sound on this. You look stupid.

The temperature lowers the pressure, but then the warmer/more dense air needs a place to go, so it goes to the colder/less dense air...You can't look at half the problem and see the solution.

Well if you are right and the Gay-Lussac's Law is wrong, please reference some evidence for your claim.
 

You still haven't shown that the party balloon doesn't deflate. Nothing in the gas laws says that high pressure won't move to low pressure. You can also test this yourself. Step outside. Feel the wind. That's the atmosphere moving due to pressure gradients. I'm safe and sound on this. You look stupid.

The balloon can deflate into the atmosphere because the temperatures are nearly the same. As the balloon deflates its hot air into the atmosphere the depleting the air within the balloon must rapidly cool down and expand into a low pressure system as it leaves the balloon into the surrounding environment. When the hot air touches a open environment with a lower temperature it is almost instantly cooled and dispersed.

Ergo, the balloon can deflate because the deflating air is being cooled.

Quote from: CommonCents on August 07, 2007, 12:24:24 PM

The temperature lowers the pressure, but then the warmer/more dense air needs a place to go, so it goes to the colder/less dense air...You can't look at half the problem and see the solution.

Well if you are right and the Gay-Lussac's Law is wrong, please reference evidence for your claim.
 

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You still haven't shown that the party balloon doesn't deflate. Nothing in the gas laws says that high pressure won't move to low pressure. You can also test this yourself. Step outside. Feel the wind. That's the atmosphere moving due to pressure gradients. I'm safe and sound on this. You look stupid.

The balloon can deflate into the atmosphere because the temperatures are nearly the same. As the balloon deflates its hot air into the atmosphere the local temperature of the atmosphere is CHANGED. The atmosphere gains more heat.

I'm not saying the law is wrong, I'm saying that you need to keep in mind other properties of fluids, not just one.


P.S.  Your source is owned by the conspiracy!!!!!1!11!!!!1

I'm not saying the law is wrong, I'm saying that you need to keep in mind other properties of fluids, not just one.

Lets think about this logically. According to many sources there exists low pressures at the North Pole and high pressures at the equator.

Now, if warm high pressure environments could move into a cold and freezing low pressure environment then why does the North Pole have a constantly low pressure when compared to the equator? The two should have equalized eons ago.

Either the warmth of the sun is keeping the pressures high within its vicinity around the equator or the low temperatures of the North Pole are keeping the pressures low within its vicinity.

Whichever one we choose demonstrates that high pressure can be contained within a temperature gradient. That a temperature variable is involves when winds move into pressures of high to low.

As has been pointed out already in this thread, the air DOES move there.  We have this little thing called weather, perhaps you've heard of it?

Think bout it logically? Then you would reach our conclusion. Re read that law of yours.

As has been pointed out already in this thread, the air DOES move there.  We have this little thing called weather, perhaps you've heard of it?

In order for the winds to move into the low pressures of the north pole the winds must be cooled. And, as we know from the links I gave, a cold wind must be low pressured according to Gay-Lussac's Gas Law. And so it's a catch 22; the winds cannot create high pressure at the North pole because the environment is too cold. And by moving into a cold environment the winds must become unpressurized. Ad infinitum.

We see that winds ARE moved to the North Pole, but in the process they are cooled and unpressurized. This creates the weather we know and see.

This is the answer to the Low Pressure at the North Pole question.

We see that winds ARE moved to the North Pole, but in the process they are cooled and unpressurized. This creates the weather we know and see.

How does that explain why the air doesn't just escape into the vacuum of space?

Quote from: CommonCents on August 07, 2007, 12:24:24 PM

The temperature lowers the pressure, but then the warmer/more dense air needs a place to go, so it goes to the colder/less dense air...You can't look at half the problem and see the solution.

Well if you are right and the Gay-Lussac's Law is wrong, please reference evidence for your claim.

Tell us why the North Pol remains LOW pressured while it is constantly surrounded by HIGH pressures.

Please reference your claim that high pressures move into a low temperature, low pressure environment.

You attack a straw man, but it's fun to watch. I accept and apply the gas laws.

I've already answered this question twice. The Sun renews the higher temperatures and higher pressures near the Equator, while the pole radiate their heat to space renewing their lower temperatures and pressures. The weather is a renewing cycle.

My reference is the party balloon experiment. Go try it.

pv=nrt
p=nrt/v

thus pressure can go up without the temperature changing.  

Low pressure cannot hold high pressure in.  Low temperatures cannot hold high temperatures in.

Nowhere does p/T = constant or p1/T1 = p2/T2 say this.  BTW this only works when volume remains a constant.  

Hot high pressure does move to cold low pressure.  Its call "weather".  

How does that explain why the air doesn't just escape into the vacuum of space?

Applying this to the Ice Wall we see that winds do move over the Ice Wall, but only to a point. The winds are constantly cooled further and further as they recede into the tundra until the pressure of the receding winds is zero. After that the winds cannot move further. Zero pressure means zero pressure. If a wind has zero pressure it cannot move further.

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How does that explain why the air doesn't just escape into the vacuum of space?

Applying this to the Ice Wall we see that winds do move over the Ice Wall, but only to a point. The winds are constantly cooled further and further as they recede into the tundra until the pressure is zero. After that the winds cannot move further. Zero pressure means zero pressure. There is zero pressure for the winds to move into.

But how does that explain why the air over the equator doesn't just escape into the vacuum of space? 

But how does that explain why the air over the equator doesn't just escape into the vacuum of space?  Roll Eyes

Because as the winds escape the equator into the icy tundra the temperature of the environment is LOWERED. Therefore the temperature of the escaping winds is LOWERED. Therefore the pressure of the winds is LOWERED.

After a point into the tundra the gust of wind will have zero pressure due to zero temperature. Ergo, do to zero temperature a zero pressure gust of wind cannot move into the vacuum of space.

The atmosphere exist as a lip upon the surface of the earth.

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How does that explain why the air doesn't just escape into the vacuum of space?

Applying this to the Ice Wall we see that winds do move over the Ice Wall, but only to a point. The winds are constantly cooled further and further as they recede into the tundra until the pressure of the receding winds is zero. After that the winds cannot move further. Zero pressure means zero pressure. If a wind has zero pressure it cannot move further.

Nope. The atmosphere would condense, raining down onto the tundra. In a short time all the atmosphere would condense beyond the Ice Wall.

I'm pretty sure this law can't be used at 0K anyway.  The law states that P/T = constant for that gas

So if P/T at the equator = 50, then P/T at the South Pole has to = 50 as well, that's why you can do P1/T1 = P2/T2.  At 0K, you're saying P1/T1 = 50, but P2/T2 = 0.  Perhaps someone can back me up here?

My reference is the party balloon experiment. Go try it.

The party balloon filled with hot air deflates because the receding gust of wind from the lip of the balloon is being lowered in temperature as it touches the outside air. The interior pressure of the balloon is equalizing in temperature and pressure to the environment.

If, instead, we have a Hot Air Balloon where the air within the structure is constantly warmed and replenished, there can be a breach without the balloon deflating. This is how Hot Air balloons work. This is why they can have an open lip at the bottom and not deflate. The temperature is constantly being heated within the balloon, creating higher pressures. When the burner is turned off the temperature within the balloon can escape and equalize with the cool low pressure environment.

In retrospect this hot air balloon analogy is a perfect example for the phenomena I am describing.

I'm pretty sure this law can't be used at 0K anyway.  The law states that P/T = constant for that gas

So if P/T at the equator = 50, then P/T at the South Pole has to = 50 as well, that's why you can do P1/T1 = P2/T2.  At 0K, you're saying P1/T1 = 50, but P2/T2 = 0.  Perhaps someone can back me up here?

The law goes undefined since T2 = 0K. Zero pressure means no gas; everything must have condensed.

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My reference is the party balloon experiment. Go try it.

The party balloon filled with hot air deflates because its receding gust of wind from the lip of the balloon is being lowered in temperature as it touches the outside air. The interior pressure of the balloon is equalizing in temperature and pressure.

If instead we have a Hot Air Balloon where the air within the structure is constantly warmed and replenished, there can be a breach without the balloon rapidly deflating. This is how Hot Air balloons work. This is why they can have an open lip at the bottom and not deflate. The temperature is constantly being heated within the balloon, creating higher pressures. When the burner is turned off the temperature within the balloon can escape and equalize with the cool low pressure environment.

In retrospect this hot air balloon analogy is a perfect example for the phenomena I am describing.

We're glad to see you concede that point: high pressure moves to low pressure.

Now tell us why the FE atmosphere doesn't all condense beyond the Ice Wall.

Quote from: CommonCents on August 07, 2007, 01:10:48 PM

I'm pretty sure this law can't be used at 0K anyway.  The law states that P/T = constant for that gas

So if P/T at the equator = 50, then P/T at the South Pole has to = 50 as well, that's why you can do P1/T1 = P2/T2.  At 0K, you're saying P1/T1 = 50, but P2/T2 = 0.  Perhaps someone can back me up here?

The law goes undefined since T2 = 0K. Zero pressure means no gas; everything must have condensed.

Oh, I sees teh light!

So is Tom saying that we have a wall of solid 'air' as well as the Ice Wall?  Why don't we see it?   

Now tell us why the FE atmosphere doesn't all condense beyond the Ice Wall.

Because as high pressure winds move into low pressure environments the temperatures of the wind must must equalize with the environment.

As the winds move past the Ice Wall into the uncharted tundra the winds are being rapidly cooled, and thus unpressurized. As the winds move towards the zero kelvin point upon the tundra the pressure of the winds are matched with a decreasing gradient. Once the wind reaches the zero kelvin point the wind has zero pressure. Zero pressure winds cannot move.

Ergo the atmosphere is contained.