If The Earth Is Flat...

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If The Earth Is Flat...
« Reply #60 on: April 16, 2006, 10:27:16 AM »
Quote from: "Unimportant"
Quote from: "General Specific"
Imagine the world is flat.  Imagine you know NOTHING except how to find the speed of light.  You calculate the speed of sunlight.  You calculate the speed of light from a flashlight.  Why are the results different?  

THEY AREN'T.

Indeed.  They are not the same.  Now we're geting somewhere.  Roll with me here.

Now tell me WHY the results are not different.

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6strings

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If The Earth Is Flat...
« Reply #61 on: April 16, 2006, 10:36:03 AM »
Quote
And what the hell are Maxwells equations?

Alright, let me present a hypothetical situation to you:
You're on a forum in the middle of cyberspace, surrounded by porn sites, but also, surrounded by a great deal of sites that contain information you could use.  Someone on said forum says something about something you don't understand; what do you do?  Take the effort to Google the thing you don't understand and learn why you're wrong.

It really shouldn't be my job to spoon-feed you the resoning for why you're wrong, but look I did right here:
Quote
Had you bothered to do the reading I had reccomended you, you would have found that the speed of light, or any electromagnetic radiation, is not dependant on the velocity of the object emitting the radiation, in accordance with Maxwell's equations, most notably the following, posted for your convenience, as you seem to be too lazy to follow up on any reading that would prevent your further embarassing of yourself:

c=1/sq(E*U)

where,
c is the speed of light in meters per second
E is the permittivity of free space (vacuum), in farads per meter
U is the pemeability of free space in henries per meter

You will find, should you choose to investigate this further, that this equation shows that the speed of light is not dependent on the velocity of the emitting object, nor the velocity of anything else.  

Granted, it isn't all of Maxwell's equations, but it is the most relevant one, which debunks your entire premise, which I even told you.  Seriously, take the small effort to read my posts before posting your nearly nonsensical replies.

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Try thinking inductively. Imagine the world is flat. Imagine you know NOTHING except how to find the speed of light. You calculate the speed of sunlight. You calculate the speed of light from a flashlight. Why are the results different? You have no clue because you don't know anything besides how to find the speed of light(not really, this is an example keep in mind).

Do you realize that the results wouldn't be different?  If not, I'm telling you: given the fact that light is an electromagnetic wave, or behaves as such, it's speed is not affected by the velocity of the object emitting it.  How many times have I had to repeat this?

If you do realize that there would be no difference in their speeds, what are you trying to say, because, honestly, this just becomes so much gibberish.

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Please don't make me dig out my physics book and do the work.

You may want to, if only to brush up on what you seem to be misunderstanding.

I guess cheesejoff's idea of your intellect being inversely proportional to the size of the group you arrive with has at least a grain of truth.

Edit:
Just saw your last post: They are the same, and I can quote myself here to explain this to you, which only means that you are, once again, just not reading my posts:
Quote
Had you bothered to do the reading I had reccomended you, you would have found that the speed of light, or any electromagnetic radiation, is not dependant on the velocity of the object emitting the radiation, in accordance with Maxwell's equations, most notably the following, posted for your convenience, as you seem to be too lazy to follow up on any reading that would prevent your further embarassing of yourself:

c=1/sq(E*U)

where,
c is the speed of light in meters per second
E is the permittivity of free space (vacuum), in farads per meter
U is the pemeability of free space in henries per meter

You will find, should you choose to investigate this further, that this equation shows that the speed of light is not dependent on the velocity of the emitting object, nor the velocity of anything else.  

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joffenz

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If The Earth Is Flat...
« Reply #62 on: April 16, 2006, 10:48:47 AM »
Looks here's an example to show you the mistake your making:

Imagine Erasmus and I get in our cars and start racing in the same direction. We are travelling along with me in front (obviously) and Erasmus behind, both of us accelerating at the same rate.

Now if Erasmus were to measure the Speed of Light coming from my tail lights, would he see the result as slightly more than the speed of light? According to you, yes. According to all physicists in the world, no. He would see that the speed of light is 3x10^8 m/s because c is a constant regardless of where it's measured from.

If The Earth Is Flat...
« Reply #63 on: April 16, 2006, 10:52:03 AM »
Quote from: "General Specific"
Quote from: "Unimportant"
Quote from: "General Specific"
Imagine the world is flat.  Imagine you know NOTHING except how to find the speed of light.  You calculate the speed of sunlight.  You calculate the speed of light from a flashlight.  Why are the results different?  

THEY AREN'T.

Indeed.  They are not the same.  Now we're geting somewhere.  Roll with me here.

Now tell me WHY the results are not different.

I'm sorry, you guys can have him. I give up.

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GeoGuy

If The Earth Is Flat...
« Reply #64 on: April 16, 2006, 11:27:30 AM »
Think of it this way if you turn your cars headlights on while the car is standing still and measure the spead of the light emitted from the headlamps, you would come up with, lets say, speed = x.
Now say that you drive your car down the road at 60 km/h and turn your headlights on, then measure the speed of light, it would seem as though you would come up with the measurment of the speed of your car plus the speed of light light (x + 60 km/h) right? Wrong, you would still only come up with x just like when the car was standing still! This is because the speed of light is a constant. This seems strange because anything else measured in the same way would come up as the speed of the car plus the speed of the object that was thrown from the moving car.
But that is one of the special properties of the SOL, it is always a constant when viewed from any frame of reference.

Sorry if this wasn't what you where getting at but thats what it seemed like from your posts. :)

If The Earth Is Flat...
« Reply #65 on: April 16, 2006, 11:36:22 AM »
There is one point you missed from your debate there, and that is, that on a flat earth model therre is no magma, magma isrefered to as lava above ground (this is what comes out of volcanos, if there is no magma volcanos would not exist (which they eveidently do).
on a further note volcanos reliy (yes i know i didnt spell that correctly) on the tectonic plates to seperate so magma can escape the core of the earth so with out tectonic plates (which move) the earth would be a ball of molten lava. (please notify me if that did not make sense and i will attempt to eilaborate for you)
-grim

If The Earth Is Flat...
« Reply #66 on: April 16, 2006, 11:39:57 AM »
Taken from the FAQ:
Quote
Q: "How do volcanic eruptions happen?"

A: The Earth is thick enough to have a core of molten lava. Once there's too much of it in too confined a space, it finds it's way out, just like the water will come out of a full bottle if you squeeze it too hard

The flat earth does have magma, and so has volcanos, volcanic eruptions, and tectonic movement as well.

If The Earth Is Flat...
« Reply #67 on: April 16, 2006, 12:24:51 PM »
Quote from: "Unimportant"
Quote from: "General Specific"
Quote from: "Unimportant"
Quote from: "General Specific"
Imagine the world is flat.  Imagine you know NOTHING except how to find the speed of light.  You calculate the speed of sunlight.  You calculate the speed of light from a flashlight.  Why are the results different?  

THEY AREN'T.

Indeed.  They are not the same.  Now we're geting somewhere.  Roll with me here.

Now tell me WHY the results are not different.

I'm sorry, you guys can have him. I give up.

Have me?  Know what, I really don't give a fuck about this anymore.  The only thing I have discovered is that this site just wastes countless hours of my life by debating something that has no practical purpose.  Besides, I just got KH2, and I'm tired to trying to prove my point when nobody tries to see if from my point of view.

@6strings-If you're just going to insult me, then you can just shove all that stuff you said up your ass, because I don't want to hear it.

If The Earth Is Flat...
« Reply #68 on: April 16, 2006, 12:30:21 PM »
Quote from: "General Specific"
Quote from: "Unimportant"
Quote from: "General Specific"
Quote from: "Unimportant"
Quote from: "General Specific"
Imagine the world is flat.  Imagine you know NOTHING except how to find the speed of light.  You calculate the speed of sunlight.  You calculate the speed of light from a flashlight.  Why are the results different?  

THEY AREN'T.

Indeed.  They are not the same.  Now we're geting somewhere.  Roll with me here.

Now tell me WHY the results are not different.

I'm sorry, you guys can have him. I give up.

Have me?  Know what, I really don't give a fuck about this anymore.  The only thing I have discovered is that this site just wastes countless hours of my life by debating something that has no practical purpose.  Besides, I just got KH2, and I'm tired to trying to prove my point when nobody tries to see if from my point of view.

@6strings-If you're just going to insult me, then you can just shove all that stuff you said up your ass, because I don't want to hear it.


sorry general specific, but im very curious to know what you are trying to get at, please carry on, yes thats true both lights measure the same speed (c), so... ?

If The Earth Is Flat...
« Reply #69 on: April 16, 2006, 12:36:12 PM »
When you resort to childish, intentional warping of someone's words, then you lose any credibility you had in the discussion. That's why I'm done trying to explain the flaws in your logic.

Here's the thing GS; You're right about the earth being round. I'm almost sure of it. BUT! In this discussion involving the speed of light, you are very much wrong.

If the earth were flat, the speed of light would still be the same, no matter if you're measuring sunlight or flashlight. That's what you're not getting. Maybe you think it would be different, but you're wrong. Whether the earth is flat or round really has nothing to do with it.

In fact, that's the entire point. The speed of light behaving how it does makes just as much sense on a flat earth as it does a round one. So do a lot of things.

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TheSunGod

If The Earth Is Flat...
« Reply #70 on: April 16, 2006, 12:43:26 PM »
Quote from: "Unimportant"
Taken from the FAQ:
Quote
Q: "How do volcanic eruptions happen?"

A: The Earth is thick enough to have a core of molten lava. Once there's too much of it in too confined a space, it finds it's way out, just like the water will come out of a full bottle if you squeeze it too hard

The flat earth does have magma, and so has volcanos, volcanic eruptions, and tectonic movement as well.


Question... if we assume that the earth is flat, then ergo it has no core (you can't have your cake and eat it aswell!) then I'm curious: where does this magma come from? Rather, how is it created?

Next? Simple question I know, and I'm sure there's gonna be a real good dark energy answer to it, but how does a flat earth reality explain that at the moment it's night in south africa, but day in the USA. If the earth is flat, only one side can face the sun at any time.

If The Earth Is Flat...
« Reply #71 on: April 16, 2006, 12:51:14 PM »
The "time zones" / day-night thing are addressed in the FAQ, and in a number of other threads.

As for the magma question, increasing pressure increases temperature. Pretend you're the bedrock of the flat earth, and you're being pushed with such a force as to accelerate the earth "above" you at 9.81 m/s^2. The earth is very massive, so that is a hell of a lot of inertia you have to overcome, and so is a great deal of force and pressure. It is reasonable to assume that, at a certain point, this pressure - and so temperature -  would be significant enough to melt rock.

If The Earth Is Flat...
« Reply #72 on: April 16, 2006, 12:51:51 PM »
@Isac_Newton-I searched through all my physics stuff, and I didn't find what I was looking for.  It was a problem called "Bricklayers Dillema".  It was about some guy who was loading bricks on top of a building, and the bricks were in a barrel suspended from a pully at the top of the buiding.  When he untied the rope holding the bricks up, he held on to the rope and hit the bricks halfway up.  One of the questions was "How much force did the barrel strike the man with?"  The answer was basically the force of the man plus the force of the barrel.  That's where I get the idea of the earth and the sunlight traveling in opposite directions.  Then when the barrel hit the ground the bottom broke and let all the bricks out, so then the barrel was pulled up and the man went down.  Then he let go of the rope and the barrel came down and fell on top of him.  If the barrel represents the sunlight and the man represents earth in the question.

But meh, I'm really tired of this, and frankly, I just want to let it go.

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joffenz

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If The Earth Is Flat...
« Reply #73 on: April 16, 2006, 01:41:55 PM »
Quote from: "General Specific"
But meh, I'm really tired of this, and frankly, I just want to let it go.


I agree. By the way, the variable you were looking for is "time". Although the Earth accelerates up, thereby decreasing the distance between the light and the Earth, the speed of lightis not affected. Instead the time taken for the light to arrive decreases.

But never mind that, just let it go....

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Erasmus

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If The Earth Is Flat...
« Reply #74 on: April 16, 2006, 03:50:44 PM »
Quote from: "NEEMAN"
Simple. If I can go to any point on the Earth and observe a general degree of curvature which is the same in all locations (proportional to height), ... The same degree of curvature is observable anywhere,


Indeed.  I presume therefore that you have travelled the world, taking accurate measurements of both your elevation above sea level and the apparent curvature of the Earth?

Or, more likely, you have been in airplanes a dozen or so times, and you have been to a couple of different parts of the world but didn't really get around to measuring the apparent curvature of the Earth, and are assuming that that's what you *would* have observed had you actually performed the measurements?

-Erasmus
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

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Lord Wilmore

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If The Earth Is Flat...
« Reply #75 on: April 16, 2006, 05:07:01 PM »
Quote from: "Erasmus"
Quote from: "NEEMAN"
Simple. If I can go to any point on the Earth and observe a general degree of curvature which is the same in all locations (proportional to height), ... The same degree of curvature is observable anywhere,


Indeed.  I presume therefore that you have travelled the world, taking accurate measurements of both your elevation above sea level and the apparent curvature of the Earth?

Or, more likely, you have been in airplanes a dozen or so times, and you have been to a couple of different parts of the world but didn't really get around to measuring the apparent curvature of the Earth, and are assuming that that's what you *would* have observed had you actually performed the measurements?

-Erasmus


Well, first allow me to state that I have since converted, and I now support FE theory, and I will do my best to improve it.

However, this is undeniably a flaw in FE theory as it stands. I am sure that there is a logical explanation, but currently it does not exist. I may not have spent my life observing this feature, but crucially, you have not denied it. I have yet to ask if anyone here has actually gone to see the ice sheet, and confirm that it curves as the inside of a circle/oval would, have I? (whoops)

This curvature is a very simple and observable featuire, which currently has no explanation under FE theory. Crucially, it also undermines FE theory, as the only current explanation for this curvature is that the Earth is generally spherical.

I don't think Unimportant's suggestion that it is related to air density & weather conditions really covers it, as it does not explain the uniformity of the curvature. I think it needs to be explained, & properly.
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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Erasmus

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If The Earth Is Flat...
« Reply #76 on: April 16, 2006, 06:52:51 PM »
Quote from: "NEEMAN"
Well, first allow me to state that I have since converted, and I now support FE theory


Since what?

Quote
this is undeniably a flaw in FE theory as it stands.


Maybe you missed my point.  It's not a flaw unless we know it to be a case that the  constant-horizon-curvature at a given elevation is what is actually observed.  No REers here seem to have observed this; they simply assume that it is what they would observed if they took the time to try.

Quote
you have not denied it.


Simply because I have not taken the time to perform the experiment, and probably never will.

If I had to guess, however, I would probably make the guess that is consistent with my beliefs about the shape of the Earth.  However, I would point out that this is my guess, made with that belief in mind, and never ever claim it to be something I've observed.

-Erasmus
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

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EnragedPenguin

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If The Earth Is Flat...
« Reply #77 on: April 16, 2006, 06:55:50 PM »
Quote from: "Erasmus"
Quote from: "NEEMAN"
Well, first allow me to state that I have since converted, and I now support FE theory


Since what?



Since he joined up last night I believe.
A different world cannot be built by indifferent people.

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Lord Wilmore

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If The Earth Is Flat...
« Reply #78 on: April 16, 2006, 07:20:17 PM »
Quote from: "Erasmus"
Quote from: "NEEMAN"
Well, first allow me to state that I have since converted, and I now support FE theory


Since what?

Quote
this is undeniably a flaw in FE theory as it stands.


Maybe you missed my point.  It's not a flaw unless we know it to be a case that the  constant-horizon-curvature at a given elevation is what is actually observed.  No REers here seem to have observed this; they simply assume that it is what they would observed if they took the time to try.

Quote
you have not denied it.


Simply because I have not taken the time to perform the experiment, and probably never will.

If I had to guess, however, I would probably make the guess that is consistent with my beliefs about the shape of the Earth.  However, I would point out that this is my guess, made with that belief in mind, and never ever claim it to be something I've observed.

-Erasmus


"Since what?"?

And I never said I had done this. Nowhere in this thread (or anywhere else) did I claim I had performed this experiment. I merely said it is the case (or words to that effect). Much as the FAQ says that there is an ice-wall around the Earth. I see nothing that is wrong with what I have said, given that context.

And I still think that such an observable curve needs to be explained in FE theory. I just can't think of anything at the moment.
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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Erasmus

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If The Earth Is Flat...
« Reply #79 on: April 16, 2006, 10:48:46 PM »
Quote from: "NEEMAN"
And I never said I had done this. Nowhere in this thread (or anywhere else) did I claim I had performed this experiment. I merely said it is the case


So, if you haven't observed it, how do you know that it's observable?

If somebody observes it, FEers will try and find a way to explain it.  So far I don't really feel that FE theory is obliged to explain something that you simply claim is the case, with no evidence and no observations that it is the case.

-Erasmus
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

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Chaltier

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If The Earth Is Flat...
« Reply #80 on: April 16, 2006, 11:01:06 PM »
As Erasmus stated, that's simply an assumption that REers make; they assume that they would see curvature if they really took the time to look. No one on this board has, of yet and to the extent of my knowledge, claimed to have actually seen said curvature.

However, were there such a curvature, do recall that FE no more claims the Earth to be a perfect plane than RE claims it to be a perfect sphere.


--Chal

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Lord Wilmore

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If The Earth Is Flat...
« Reply #81 on: April 17, 2006, 11:42:03 AM »
Quote from: "Erasmus"
Quote from: "NEEMAN"
And I never said I had done this. Nowhere in this thread (or anywhere else) did I claim I had performed this experiment. I merely said it is the case


So, if you haven't observed it, how do you know that it's observable?

If somebody observes it, FEers will try and find a way to explain it.  So far I don't really feel that FE theory is obliged to explain something that you simply claim is the case, with no evidence and no observations that it is the case.

-Erasmus


So tell me, if somebody came on this site & said they had done so, would you try to explain it?

Or would you first demand quantitative evidence of this curvature?
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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Erasmus

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If The Earth Is Flat...
« Reply #82 on: April 17, 2006, 05:28:37 PM »
Quote from: "NEEMAN"
So tell me, if somebody came on this site & said they had done so, would you try to explain it?

Or would you first demand quantitative evidence of this curvature?


Well, no, I wouldn't demand it.  But I'd ask nicely.  Presumably, any such experiment would make extensive use of photography.  It would be no major task for the experimenter to share this data.

Once that's been done, if I were convinced of the data's authenticity, and I were in a particularly FE mood, I might try to explain it.

Failing that, I'd probably just accuse him of doctoring the photographs and wasting my time :)

-Erasmus
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?