GPS Vs. IRS

If the earth was flat, how kould an airkrafts IRS system konkur with its GPS system? IRS navigation is mekanikal, so it kan't be 'triked' or falsely programmed like a GPS kan.

Inertial guidance systems are prone to integration drift.  They must be slaved to other systems, such as GPS, to maintain positional accuracy.

Inertial guidance systems are prone to integration drift.  They must be slaved to other systems, such as GPS, to maintain positional accuracy.

How were guidance systems maintained prior to GPS?

Of course, they both were put into service at roughly the same time.  But you can slave an INS to a compass or it can be manually corrected.

...guidance and GPS were totally not at the same time.

Guidance was based on radio prior to GPS, right?

Inertial Guidance Systems, aka, Inertial Navigation Systems, aka, Inertial Reference Systems, not guidance in general.

Of course, they both were put into service at roughly the same time.

Thats a flat out lie! IRS's were in use LONG before GPS! IRS systems have been in use sinse the mid '70's. GPS was not deklared fully operational until 1995. Remember the korean air flight that was shot down over soviet airspase? It only had an IRS on board. And just for the rekord: The NTSB konkluded it was human error that kaused the plane to fly into the no-fly zone. Not instrumentation error.

Quote from: TheEngineer on July 20, 2007, 08:04:50 AM

Of course, they both were put into service at roughly the same time.

Thats a flat out lie! IRS's were in use LONG before GPS! IRS systems have been in use sinse the mid '70's. GPS was not deklared fully operational until 1995. Remember the korean air flight that was shot down over soviet airspase? It only had an IRS on board. And just for the rekord: The NTSB konkluded it was human error that kaused the plane to fly into the no-fly zone. Not instrumentation error.

Because they had one wrong switch flipped on their IRS, so it told them thier course was directly through Korean airspace.

I guess... I think they just typed in a single wrong number when they were synking the unit and putting in way points at the beginning of the flight.

IRS's were in use LONG before GPS! IRS systems have been in use sinse the mid '70's.

Uh, no.  The first global positioning system was used in the late '60's.  The first 'modern' GPS was placed into service in the '70's. 

GPS was not deklared fully operational until 1995.

Sucks that it wasn't available to be used to guide the GPS bombs dropped in Desert Storm then.

Remember the korean air flight that was shot down over soviet airspase?

Due to this incident, Regan declared that GPS would be made available to civilians, as it was only strictly available to the military. 

It only had an IRS on board.

No navigator or maps?!  No wonder!

Thats a flat out lie!

I'm sure the irony of this statement escapes no one.

but it wasn't available in COMMERCIAL stuff before that incident, correct? You said so yourself. But the IRS WAS available before. His point stands, and you yourself have offered evidence to support it in excess of his own.

Inertial guidance systems are prone to integration drift.  They must be slaved to other systems, such as GPS, to maintain positional accuracy.

Since you people seem to have a real hard time reading.

I guess... I think they just typed in a single wrong number when they were synking the unit and putting in way points at the beginning of the flight.

They set the autopilot heading selector to 'Hold' after their departure from Alaska.  They never even turned on the INS or bothered to do a position check.

You're evading the question.

Quote from: rentakow on July 20, 2007, 01:23:52 PM

GPS was not deklared fully operational until 1995.

Sucks that it wasn't available to be used to guide the GPS bombs dropped in Desert Storm then.

Quote

Remember the korean air flight that was shot down over soviet airspase?

Due to this incident, Regan declared that GPS would be made available to civilians, as it was only strictly available to the military.

And kontradikting yourself.

Quote from: rentakow on July 20, 2007, 01:41:40 PM

I guess... I think they just typed in a single wrong number when they were synking the unit and putting in way points at the beginning of the flight.

They set the autopilot heading selector to 'Hold' after their departure from Alaska.  They never even turned on the INS or bothered to do a position check.

Or they entered a way point inkorektly that put them over the no fly zone.

You're evading the question.

What question did I avoid and how did I contradict myself?

Or they entered a way point inkorektly that put them over the no fly zone.

No, they set the autopilot heading selector to 'Hold', like I said in the above post.

The question is, how kan a mekanikal navigation system konkur with a digital one.

You kontradikted your self by saying GPS's have always been used with IRS's (whitj is not true). Then you say GPS's were only used by the military, while sivilians used only IRS's.

Or they entered a way point inkorektly that put them over the no fly zone.

No, they set the autopilot heading selector to 'Hold', like I said in the above post.
[/quote]
Kan you provide a link the the offisial NTSB report?

The question is, how kan a mekanikal navigation system konkur with a digital one.

You kontradikted your self by saying GPS's have always been used with IRS's (whitj is not true). Then you say GPS's were only used by the military, while sivilians used only IRS's.

Quote from: TheEngineer on July 20, 2007, 06:16:04 PM

Or they entered a way point inkorektly that put them over the no fly zone.

No, they set the autopilot heading selector to 'Hold', like I said in the above post.

Kan you provide a link the the offisial NTSB report?
[/quote]

I heard the same thing about the putting a switch wrong, i saw it on the history channel a year or so ago, so i don't remember the details but what he says sounds about right.

The question is, how kan a mekanikal navigation system konkur with a digital one.

You kontradikted your self by saying GPS's have always been used with IRS's (whitj is not true). Then you say GPS's were only used by the military, while sivilians used only IRS's.

Quote from: TheEngineer on July 20, 2007, 06:16:04 PM

Or they entered a way point inkorektly that put them over the no fly zone.

No, they set the autopilot heading selector to 'Hold', like I said in the above post.

Kan you provide a link the the offisial NTSB report?
[/quote]How about the International equivalent?
ICAO Report on KAL 007
According to the report’s main findings, the crew of the Boeing 747 activated an autopilot
shortly after departure from Anchorage and turned to a heading of 245 degrees to comply with an air traffic
control (ATC) clearance. KE 007 maintained a heading of 245 degrees from three minutes after lift-off until
the interception over five hours later. The failure to detect the aircraft’s deviation from its assigned track
for over five hours indicated a lack of situational awareness and flight deck coordination on the part of the
crew.

The report found that the maintenance of the constant magnetic heading and the resulting
track deviation was due to the crew’s failure to note that the autopilot had either been left in the heading
mode or had been switched to the inertial navigation system (INS) when the aircraft was beyond range for
the INS to capture the desired track. The flight crew of KE 007 did not implement the proper navigation
procedures to ensure the aircraft remained on its assigned track throughout the flight, resulting in KE 007
eventually penetrating prohibited areas of USSR sovereign airspace.

Quote from: rentakow on July 20, 2007, 08:09:13 PM

The question is, how kan a mekanikal navigation system konkur with a digital one.

You kontradikted your self by saying GPS's have always been used with IRS's (whitj is not true). Then you say GPS's were only used by the military, while sivilians used only IRS's.

Quote from: TheEngineer on July 20, 2007, 06:16:04 PM

Or they entered a way point inkorektly that put them over the no fly zone.

No, they set the autopilot heading selector to 'Hold', like I said in the above post.

Kan you provide a link the the offisial NTSB report?

How about the International equivalent?
ICAO Report on KAL 007
According to the report’s main findings, the crew of the Boeing 747 activated an autopilot
shortly after departure from Anchorage and turned to a heading of 245 degrees to comply with an air traffic
control (ATC) clearance. KE 007 maintained a heading of 245 degrees from three minutes after lift-off until
the interception over five hours later. The failure to detect the aircraft’s deviation from its assigned track
for over five hours indicated a lack of situational awareness and flight deck coordination on the part of the
crew.

The report found that the maintenance of the constant magnetic heading and the resulting
track deviation was due to the crew’s failure to note that the autopilot had either been left in the heading
mode or had been switched to the inertial navigation system (INS) when the aircraft was beyond range for
the INS to capture the desired track. The flight crew of KE 007 did not implement the proper navigation
procedures to ensure the aircraft remained on its assigned track throughout the flight, resulting in KE 007
eventually penetrating prohibited areas of USSR sovereign airspace.
[/quote]

so basically what the engineer said + the pilots didnt notice the problem.

You kontradikted your self by saying GPS's have always been used with IRS's (whitj is not true).

When did I say that?

Then you say GPS's were only used by the military, while sivilians used only IRS's.

Yep.

You're a fuking idiot. I'm not going to waste my time with your bullshit games.

Does it get tiring, always being wrong?

You're a fuking idiot. I'm not going to waste my time with your bullshit games.

How is claiming he said something that he didn't say, a game?

Quote from: TheEngineer on July 20, 2007, 12:58:36 AM

Inertial guidance systems are prone to integration drift.  They must be slaved to other systems, such as GPS, to maintain positional accuracy.

How were guidance systems maintained prior to GPS?

Ask about word games? The thread was originally about the combined use of mechanical inertial systems and GPS, and was then totally thrown off its subject with TheEngineer's claim that INS were introduced at the same time as GPS.

Of course, inertial navigation systems existed long before GPS. They were used in V2 rockets in 1944!

TheEngineer realizes the legitimasy of my point so he is just trying to destrakt us.

"Massive fail" I think is what he would kall it.

theEngineer, you contradicted yourself by stating INS and GPS were developed at thee same time, though you said GPS was invented in the 60s (the INS existed much prior to this).

Ask about word games? The thread was originally about the combined use of mechanical inertial systems and GPS

Which was answered in the first post.  Please keep up with the conversation.

, and was then totally thrown off its subject with TheEngineer's claim that INS were introduced at the same time as GPS.

Of course, inertial navigation systems existed long before GPS. They were used in V2 rockets in 1944!

Actually, I was referring to the modern INS, but yes, gyro stabilized guidance systems have been in use for some time. 

But of course, this all depends on the word games you want to play.

Uh, no.  The first global positioning system was used in the late '60's.  The first 'modern' GPS was placed into service in the '70's. 

gps was not developed until the early 70's and then it was a top secret project, and it was not very accurate at all it got within about 150ft of your location and the recievers were about the size of a home stereo

Navy Navigation Satellite System or NAVSAT, aka, Transit, was proposed in 1958.  The launch of the first satellite was just a short time later, in 1960. 

Now you really are evading the question. Why do INS systems konkur with GPS systems? If the GPS kompanys were programing the GPS systems to suggest a round earth, yet still be akurate on a FE map; The mekanikal systems would reveal the error!