English Socialism and You

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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English Socialism and You
« on: July 12, 2007, 05:34:13 PM »
I'm currently in the process of reading 1984 for the first time since 9/11.  For those not familiar with the book (shame on you), it's a fascinating and powerful book about an oppressive negative utopia in which everything down to what you are allowed to think is regulated by the government, represented by the single god-like being "Big Brother".  The term "Big Brother is watching you" is taken from this book, because one of the defining characteristics of the society where the story takes place is that everyone is constantly being observed (or at least the threat is there that they are being observed) at all times, waking or sleeping, by means of telescreens (televisions) scattered all over the place, and microphones hidden in spots where telescreens would be impractical.

The year is more than two decades past, of course, and we have yet to be living in precisely the sort of oligarchical society presented in the book (an oligarchy is a system of government in which only a very small segment of the population has any political power, in this case the Inner Party, which represents about 2% of the population).  But there's been much in the book that's gotten me really thinking about the society we live in today, and similarities you can draw between it and the society presented in the book.

For example, the concept of "doublethink".  In 1984, doublethink is a Newspeak (the official language of Oceania, the society in the book) word that means to think two contradictory things at once, and is often presented in the context of using a word to mean its exact opposite.  This comes through in the book in numerous ways.  For example, the main character in the book, Winston, works in what is called the Ministry of Truth, which concerns itself chiefly with the spread of lies (Winston's job is to falsify past documents so that they match what the Party has stated).  The phrase "English Socialism" (Ingsoc in Newspeak) is another example, as the oligarchical society presented in the book is far from a socialist one.  Doublethink has a primarily euphemistic context, that is, its purpose is to make things appear better than they actually are.

Two words: Mission Accomplished.  When the US took Baghdad, this was President Bush's message, implying that the war had been won.  It hadn't, of course, as the government well understood.  We are still fighting the war.  This is an exemplary instance of doublespeak (essentially the vocalisation of doublethink).  Of course, Bush is a master of doublespeak.  That tax law he enacted shortly after taking office, for example, was supposed to ease the economy; it had the effect of throwing the country into a recession.  I can also cite the seesawing price of gasoline as an example of doublethink.  The purpose of raising the price then lowering it, raising it then lowering it, is so that the people are in a state of "Well, at least it's not as bad as it was" at the appropriate times.  Perhaps most glaring? The "Patriot Act" (about which I will have more to say).  The purpose behind the name is to imply that you are not patriotic if you are against it; in other words, if you challenge the Patriot Act, you are a traitor, an enemy of the state.  Never mind that the concept directly contradicts what the patriots who founded this country had in mind.

In 1984 Oceania is perpetually fighting a war with one of two enemies: Eurasia and Eastasia.  The entire purpose of the war is to keep the people in a constant state of patriotism.  It is stated in the book that the war can never end.  Consider the war on terror.  It is a war against an ill-defined enemy that will never go away.  Thus, it is a war that can never end.  Think about the fact that whenever W was backed into a corner during the 04 debates he would bring up 9/11, obviously meant to stir patriotism and take focus off the issues at hand.  This also mirrors what happens in 1984; the war is another way to take people's minds off the fact that they are actually being oppressed by the Inner Party.  There are also echoes here of the Iraq war, which was started on false pretenses, and which has been criticized since the start of the occupation as being unwinnable.  Point being, W felt the need to start a war to keep people's minds off the fact that his leadership was fucking things up more than it was helping things.

He has several times insisted that history would vindicate him, and he would be viewed in the future as a great president for the war with Iraq.  This is a scary parallel to the constantly shifting history presented in 1984.

Back to that point about a very small ruling class having all the political power.  With the increased need for mucho dinero in order to credibly run a political campaign, we are moving dangerously close to the point where only the privileged rich will be making our decisions for us.

Now back to the Patriot Act, and Big Brother.  It came out, after it started, that the government was secretly tapping everybody's phone lines to ferret out suspected terrorists.  In other words, at any time, the government may be listening in on your private conversation with Grandma, your wife, or your mistress.  The government is also watching our internet activity, and who knows what else.  There are video cameras nearly everywhere in urban areas.  And how many of you have OnStar?  Did you know that as long as you have it turned on, the people on the other end can listen to everything you are saying?  And of course there's Google Earth...

My point is, Big Brother is indeed watching us, and if anything, this book is even more relevant than it was when it was first published.  That, and our esteemed president almost seems to be using it as a blueprint for how to run a country.  Thankfully, the systematic removal of freedoms and privacy is a slow process, and we're not there yet.  For example, we still have a free press in place to point out the problems our government is causing to the country.  But we must remain vigilant to assure that we never get there.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2007, 05:53:30 PM by Roundy the Liar »
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Midnight

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Re: English Socialism and You
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2007, 06:09:46 PM »
I'm currently in the process of reading 1984 for the first time since 9/11.  For those not familiar with the book (shame on you), it's a fascinating and powerful book about an oppressive negative utopia in which everything down to what you are allowed to think is regulated by the government, represented by the single god-like being "Big Brother".  The term "Big Brother is watching you" is taken from this book, because one of the defining characteristics of the society where the story takes place is that everyone is constantly being observed (or at least the threat is there that they are being observed) at all times, waking or sleeping, by means of telescreens (televisions) scattered all over the place, and microphones hidden in spots where telescreens would be impractical.

The year is more than two decades past, of course, and we have yet to be living in precisely the sort of oligarchical society presented in the book (an oligarchy is a system of government in which only a very small segment of the population has any political power, in this case the Inner Party, which represents about 2% of the population).  But there's been much in the book that's gotten me really thinking about the society we live in today, and similarities you can draw between it and the society presented in the book.

For example, the concept of "doublethink".  In 1984, doublethink is a Newspeak (the official language of Oceania, the society in the book) word that means to think two contradictory things at once, and is often presented in the context of using a word to mean its exact opposite.  This comes through in the book in numerous ways.  For example, the main character in the book, Winston, works in what is called the Ministry of Truth, which concerns itself chiefly with the spread of lies (Winston's job is to falsify past documents so that they match what the Party has stated).  The phrase "English Socialism" (Ingsoc in Newspeak) is another example, as the oligarchical society presented in the book is far from a socialist one.  Doublethink has a primarily euphemistic context, that is, its purpose is to make things appear better than they actually are.

Two words: Mission Accomplished.  When the US took Baghdad, this was President Bush's message, implying that the war had been won.  It hadn't, of course, as the government well understood.  We are still fighting the war.  This is an exemplary instance of doublespeak (essentially the vocalisation of doublethink).  Of course, Bush is a master of doublespeak.  That tax law he enacted shortly after taking office, for example, was supposed to ease the economy; it had the effect of throwing the country into a recession.  I can also cite the seesawing price of gasoline as an example of doublethink.  The purpose of raising the price then lowering it, raising it then lowering it, is so that the people are in a state of "Well, at least it's not as bad as it was" at the appropriate times.  Perhaps most glaring? The "Patriot Act" (about which I will have more to say).  The purpose behind the name is to imply that you are not patriotic if you are against it; in other words, if you challenge the Patriot Act, you are a traitor, an enemy of the state.  Never mind that the concept directly contradicts what the patriots who founded this country had in mind.

In 1984 Oceania is perpetually fighting a war with one of two enemies: Eurasia and Eastasia.  The entire purpose of the war is to keep the people in a constant state of patriotism.  It is stated in the book that the war can never end.  Consider the war on terror.  It is a war against an ill-defined enemy that will never go away.  Thus, it is a war that can never end.  Think about the fact that whenever W was backed into a corner during the 04 debates he would bring up 9/11, obviously meant to stir patriotism and take focus off the issues at hand.  This also mirrors what happens in 1984; the war is another way to take people's minds off the fact that they are actually being oppressed by the Inner Party.  There are also echoes here of the Iraq war, which was started on false pretenses, and which has been criticized since the start of the occupation as being unwinnable.  Point being, W felt the need to start a war to keep people's minds off the fact that his leadership was fucking things up more than it was helping things.

He has several times insisted that history would vindicate him, and he would be viewed in the future as a great president for the war with Iraq.  This is a scary parallel to the constantly shifting history presented in 1984.

Back to that point about a very small ruling class having all the political power.  With the increased need for mucho dinero in order to credibly run a political campaign, we are moving dangerously close to the point where only the privileged rich will be making our decisions for us.

Now back to the Patriot Act, and Big Brother.  It came out, after it started, that the government was secretly tapping everybody's phone lines to ferret out suspected terrorists.  In other words, at any time, the government may be listening in on your private conversation with Grandma, your wife, or your mistress.  The government is also watching our internet activity, and who knows what else.  There are video cameras nearly everywhere in urban areas.  And how many of you have OnStar?  Did you know that as long as you have it turned on, the people on the other end can listen to everything you are saying?  And of course there's Google Earth...

My point is, Big Brother is indeed watching us, and if anything, this book is even more relevant than it was when it was first published.  That, and our esteemed president almost seems to be using it as a blueprint for how to run a country.  Thankfully, the systematic removal of freedoms and privacy is a slow process, and we're not there yet.  For example, we still have a free press in place to point out the problems our government is causing to the country.  But we must remain vigilant to assure that we never get there.

The colored text represents where I disagree with you. We do, in fact, have that system in place, as I sit here typing this, it is simply not common knowledge to every person on the street. Therein lies the genius, and the insidiousness, of it.

1984 is a non-fiction essay of what is happening.
My problem with his ideas is that it is a ridiculous thing.

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: English Socialism and You
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2007, 06:24:09 PM »
1984 is a non-fiction essay of what is happening.

Scary, isn't it?  My eyes have really been opened since I started reading it again.  Some of this shit never even occurred to me before.
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divito the truthist

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Re: English Socialism and You
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2007, 06:24:49 PM »
I have to side with Mids on this one.

Also, I've never read this book. Its high praise leads me to believe it is overrated and I'd be disappointed upon reading it.
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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: English Socialism and You
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2007, 06:25:56 PM »
Couldn't be further from the truth.  I've read it several times and it gets better with each reading.  It's my favorite book.
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Re: English Socialism and You
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2007, 06:27:00 PM »
Wow, never thought of things this way.

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Midnight

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Re: English Socialism and You
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2007, 07:07:59 PM »
If you look at the current U.S. administration as a lone entity, it is the personification of Big Brother. They answer to no one. They "defy" court orders. They "disappear" people who pose a significant threat (meaning discredit and yes, outright disappear them, look up the Dallas Morning News archives for direct sources of this behavior). They rewrite and erase key tenets of sacred legislation that this country was built on. They alter the flow of information to "police public opinion" (thought patrols). They fight wars based on whipping up the homeland into a frenzy of righteous indignation and furor, then blame the wrongs on those who speak out, thus the previous sentence before this one here. They deny certain agencies even exist, even as they demand funding for them. They read your email and mail without asking (that's you, as in anyone and everyone, Project Echelon, anyone? It isn't gone, they just renamed it and buried it deeper in the framework). They are eveywhere and yet feign ignorance on how to stop the madness.

1984 could then, in fact, be seen as a blueprint for what is coming by the day, much as Machiavelli has been used for the same purpose.

Reality is often stranger than fiction.
My problem with his ideas is that it is a ridiculous thing.

Genius. PURE, undiluted genius.

Re: English Socialism and You
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2007, 07:21:46 PM »
Uhhm, wow, I was completely unaware the government was really watching us at all.

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Midnight

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Re: English Socialism and You
« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2007, 08:46:56 PM »
Uhhm, wow, I was completely unaware the government was really watching us at all.

Moo.
My problem with his ideas is that it is a ridiculous thing.

Genius. PURE, undiluted genius.

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sokarul

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Re: English Socialism and You
« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2007, 10:13:50 PM »
Roundy the Liar have you seen Sicko by chance? 
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Chris Spaghetti

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Re: English Socialism and You
« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2007, 07:42:08 AM »
It's a doubleplusgood book showing how ungood such a society willed be (Some newspeak for you there)

I wondered though, when i read the book, why he Party kept Ingsoc 9english socialism) when London was no longer in England but 'Airstrip One'

The part that fascinated me was when Winston was in Miniluv and O'Neill was talking how they could control reality just by what you percieve, for instance how do we know that there is a 'real world' outside of our heads.

Oh by the way, the War with east/eurasia was also to use up surplus resources so that the people could be kept oppressed

"If you want an image of the future, imagine a boot stamping on the face of humanity forever!"- O'Neill 1984

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: English Socialism and You
« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2007, 11:13:03 AM »
If you look at the current U.S. administration as a lone entity, it is the personification of Big Brother. They answer to no one. They "defy" court orders. They "disappear" people who pose a significant threat (meaning discredit and yes, outright disappear them, look up the Dallas Morning News archives for direct sources of this behavior). They rewrite and erase key tenets of sacred legislation that this country was built on. They alter the flow of information to "police public opinion" (thought patrols). They fight wars based on whipping up the homeland into a frenzy of righteous indignation and furor, then blame the wrongs on those who speak out, thus the previous sentence before this one here. They deny certain agencies even exist, even as they demand funding for them. They read your email and mail without asking (that's you, as in anyone and everyone, Project Echelon, anyone? It isn't gone, they just renamed it and buried it deeper in the framework). They are eveywhere and yet feign ignorance on how to stop the madness.

1984 could then, in fact, be seen as a blueprint for what is coming by the day, much as Machiavelli has been used for the same purpose.

Reality is often stranger than fiction.

It is indeed, and similarities between the book and reality keep occurring to me.  You're right about all you posted here.  I was also thinking of the way that Bush removes from their posts military officials who disagree with his policies on the war.  All the people in place operating the war from a high position are there because they are willing to agree with the insanity of the Party - oops, I meant the president.  And this was echoed again in the US Attorneys debacle (done in the name of the Patriot Act, of course).  Since the start of his administration Bush has taken great pains to make sure that the people who most influence affairs in this country have a similar ideology to his own, and I am now convinced that that ideology is IDENTICAL to the one possessed by the Party in 1984.  It's no accident that nearly his entire administration has been recycled since he took office.

I was serious when I said it seemed like Bush was using the book as a blueprint for his presidency.  There is no question in my mind that Bush is an evil despot who would jump at the chance to have authoritarian rule over this country, and to some extent he's achieved that very goal already... and to be perfectly blunt, where I once wrote off the 9/11 conspiracy theories as unlikely, I'm now convinced that there may be some truth to the idea, simply because the fighting of a neverending war is so important to the government in the book, and it wouldn't surprise me in the least if Bush was orchestrating things all along so that we would come to that point.
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dysfunction

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Re: English Socialism and You
« Reply #12 on: July 13, 2007, 01:26:05 PM »
"If you want an image of the future, imagine a boot stamping on the face of humanity forever!"- O'Neill 1984

It's O'Brien, not O'Neill. You watch too much Stargate.

Quote
Also, I've never read this book. Its high praise leads me to believe it is overrated and I'd be disappointed upon reading it.

It is in no way overrated. Rather, it is one of the most important books ever written.
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Midnight

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Re: English Socialism and You
« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2007, 08:06:22 PM »
I am extremely upset right now, as this thread brought back to my memory an image I found somewhere on the internet not too long ago. In fact, I think I posted it into some thread HERE, a long way back, when I was newer, that shows modern london. In this image, it has Orwell's face in the top left corner, and a map of "modern london" expanding out from that, showing the location of "safety camera's", each represented as a black dot. There are nearly 500 of them in the downtown district and a 1/3 are on the street where the Author himself once lived. Irony.

I wish I could find that fucking thing again. I will look...
My problem with his ideas is that it is a ridiculous thing.

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Raist

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Re: English Socialism and You
« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2007, 09:18:11 PM »
Is it just me or did 1884 have the most depressing ending ever?

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Midnight

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Re: English Socialism and You
« Reply #15 on: July 13, 2007, 09:24:55 PM »
Is it just me or did 1984 have the most depressing ending ever?

Fixed.

If you intentionally meant 1884, then I guess the answer depends on if you lived in a shack, or a palatial estate.  ;D
My problem with his ideas is that it is a ridiculous thing.

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Raist

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Re: English Socialism and You
« Reply #16 on: July 13, 2007, 10:06:50 PM »
No it was a typo. So the question still stands, wasn't that book's ending really depressing?

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Midnight

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Re: English Socialism and You
« Reply #17 on: July 13, 2007, 10:09:45 PM »
Most of them are.  ;D
My problem with his ideas is that it is a ridiculous thing.

Genius. PURE, undiluted genius.

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: English Socialism and You
« Reply #18 on: July 14, 2007, 04:58:18 AM »
So the question still stands, wasn't that book's ending really depressing?

I agree, but Orwell wouldn't have gotten the point he was trying to make across if he had ended it any differently.  The ending was depressing because it indicated utter hopelessness, and that was 100% right.
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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: English Socialism and You
« Reply #19 on: July 14, 2007, 05:03:31 AM »
I am extremely upset right now, as this thread brought back to my memory an image I found somewhere on the internet not too long ago. In fact, I think I posted it into some thread HERE, a long way back, when I was newer, that shows modern london. In this image, it has Orwell's face in the top left corner, and a map of "modern london" expanding out from that, showing the location of "safety camera's", each represented as a black dot. There are nearly 500 of them in the downtown district and a 1/3 are on the street where the Author himself once lived. Irony.

I wish I could find that fucking thing again. I will look...

Is this it?

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: English Socialism and You
« Reply #20 on: July 14, 2007, 07:18:43 AM »
Roundy the Liar have you seen Sicko by chance? 

Sorry Sok, I meant to reply yesterday but forgot.  I haven't seen Sicko yet and probably won't see it while it's in theaters (I never see documentaries in theaters), but I know what it's about.  It's nothing new that the health care system in this country is fucked up.

Is there some connection made to 1984 in the movie, or is there something about the book/my post that reminded you of it?
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sokarul

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Re: English Socialism and You
« Reply #21 on: July 14, 2007, 07:36:42 AM »
Roundy the Liar have you seen Sicko by chance? 

Sorry Sok, I meant to reply yesterday but forgot.  I haven't seen Sicko yet and probably won't see it while it's in theaters (I never see documentaries in theaters), but I know what it's about.  It's nothing new that the health care system in this country is fucked up.

Is there some connection made to 1984 in the movie, or is there something about the book/my post that reminded you of it?
Yeah. Sicko talks about how the US doesn’t have universal health care run by the government because of an anti ad campaign using the idea that universal healthcare would lead to a socialist government.  Then he pointed out how the police, fire department, and libraries are all government run.  Also he spent time in France, England, and even Cuba ( I know commies) and showed how they healthcare rocks.   

So if I am reading this thread right, then my idea does fit into this thread.


ps I think Michael Moore is a fag.   
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Raist

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Re: English Socialism and You
« Reply #22 on: July 14, 2007, 04:31:49 PM »
I really don't know what the affect of Universal Healthcare would be. The US has some of the best doctors and surgeons in the world because of the potential money you can make as a doctor in this country. If this affects doctor's pay then it could actually adversely affect the healthcare system. I am not sure that it would, but just a thought.

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dysfunction

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Re: English Socialism and You
« Reply #23 on: July 17, 2007, 12:07:29 PM »
Raist, you should note that even with universal healthcare in the US, private, more costly healthcare would certainly still be available- just as the existence of public colleges with (relatively) low-paid professors does not mean you can't make a good salary teaching at Harvard.
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divito the truthist

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Re: English Socialism and You
« Reply #24 on: July 17, 2007, 12:13:39 PM »
I enjoyed Sicko. Actually got a great quality version quite awhile ago.
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RENTAKOW

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Re: English Socialism and You
« Reply #25 on: July 17, 2007, 02:31:38 PM »
That book sounds awesome. I'll def. look for it at my library.

If you wanna see Siko, searkh google video for "Summer.MP4". The movie is really kool.

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Raist

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Re: English Socialism and You
« Reply #26 on: July 17, 2007, 09:02:39 PM »
Raist, you should note that even with universal healthcare in the US, private, more costly healthcare would certainly still be available- just as the existence of public colleges with (relatively) low-paid professors does not mean you can't make a good salary teaching at Harvard.

ok that sounds reasonable. Thanks.