Relativity Question *waves at TheEngineer*

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CommonCents

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Re: Relativity Question *waves at TheEngineer*
« Reply #30 on: July 17, 2007, 02:27:46 PM »
My previous post was, and I hope was interpreted as, a joke.
OMG!

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TheEngineer

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Re: Relativity Question *waves at TheEngineer*
« Reply #31 on: July 17, 2007, 03:00:08 PM »
I also put confidence in the experimental evidence that puts a reasonable confidence level about the speed of gravity that allows only a small probability that it could be "subluminal".
While I did somewhat misspeak, gravity is assumed to propagate at c in GR.  In the first experimental measurement of the speed of gravity, it was calculated to be .95c, however, there was a rather large experimental error of .25c, so the speed of gravity could very well be c, which I am inclined to agree with.


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Gulliver

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Re: Relativity Question *waves at TheEngineer*
« Reply #32 on: July 17, 2007, 04:31:05 PM »
I also put confidence in the experimental evidence that puts a reasonable confidence level about the speed of gravity that allows only a small probability that it could be "subluminal".
While I did somewhat misspeak, gravity is assumed to propagate at c in GR.  In the first experimental measurement of the speed of gravity, it was calculated to be .95c, however, there was a rather large experimental error of .25c, so the speed of gravity could very well be c, which I am inclined to agree with.
I thank you for clarifying.

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TheEngineer

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Re: Relativity Question *waves at TheEngineer*
« Reply #33 on: July 17, 2007, 05:05:44 PM »
That's not strictly correct. The "No-Communications" says we, not nature, cannot communicate at FTL speeds. Nature could, and probably does, communicate at FTL speeds.

From Wikipedia
    In quantum information theory, a no-communication theorem is a result which gives conditions under which instantaneous transfer of information between two
observers is impossible.[/list]
Back up your statement that nature can communicate at FTL speeds, but we can't.  And please, please misuse Bell's work again.  Please.


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
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Gulliver

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Re: Relativity Question *waves at TheEngineer*
« Reply #34 on: July 17, 2007, 05:21:35 PM »
That's not strictly correct. The "No-Communications" says we, not nature, cannot communicate at FTL speeds. Nature could, and probably does, communicate at FTL speeds.

From Wikipedia
    In quantum information theory, a no-communication theorem is a result which gives conditions under which instantaneous transfer of information between two
observers is impossible.[/list]
Back up your statement that nature can communicate at FTL speeds, but we can't.  And please, please misuse Bell's work again.  Please.
Ah, now I understand. You just can't read. That's alright. We forgive you.

Nowhere in that quote do I state that nature can communicate at FTL speeds. Nice straw man though. divito must be proud of you.

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TheEngineer

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Re: Relativity Question *waves at TheEngineer*
« Reply #35 on: July 17, 2007, 05:25:27 PM »
That's not strictly correct. The "No-Communications" says we, not nature, cannot communicate at FTL speeds. Nature could, and probably does, communicate at FTL speeds.
Back it up.


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
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Gulliver

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Re: Relativity Question *waves at TheEngineer*
« Reply #36 on: July 17, 2007, 05:45:56 PM »
That's not strictly correct. The "No-Communications" says we, not nature, cannot communicate at FTL speeds. Nature could, and probably does, communicate at FTL speeds.
Back it up.
Since you asked so nicely and finally demonstrated that you can read, though only after prompting, I'm happy to support my assertion: physicist.org
-------------------------
NONLOCALITY GETS MORE REAL. "Bell's Inequalities," the set of mathematical relations that would rule out the notion that distant quantum particles exert influences on each other at seemingly instantaneous rates, have now been violated over record large distances, with record high certainty, and with the elimination of an important loophole in three recent experiments, further solidifying the notion of "spooky action at a distance" in quantum particles. At the Optical Society of America meeting in Baltimore earlier this month, Paul Kwiat ([email protected]) of Los Alamos and his colleagues announced that they produced an ultrabright source of photon pairs for Bell's inequality experiments; they went on to verify the violation of Bell's inequalities to a record degree of certainty (preprint at p23.lanl.gov/agw/2crystal.pdf). Splitting a single photon of well-defined energy into a pair of photons with initially undefined energies, and sending each photon through a fiber-optic network to detectors 10 km apart, researchers in Switzerland (Wolfgang Tittel, Univ. Geneva, [email protected]) showed that determining the energy for one photon by measuring it had instantaneously determined the energy of its neighbor 10 km away--a record set by the researchers last year but now demonstrated in an improved version of the original experiment. (Tittel et al., Physical Review Letters, 26 October 1998.) A University of Innsbruck group performed Bell measurements with detectors that randomly switched between settings rapidly enough to eliminate the "locality loophole," which posited that one detector might somehow send a signal to the other detector at light or sub-light speeds to affect its reading. (Weihs et al.,Phys. Rev. Lett., website at http://www.uibk.ac.at/c/c7/c704/qo/photon/_bellexp/)
---------------------------
Again, it's nature, not observers, that communicates FTL.

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TheEngineer

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Re: Relativity Question *waves at TheEngineer*
« Reply #37 on: July 17, 2007, 05:56:01 PM »
So when did nature not become an observer?


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
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Gulliver

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Re: Relativity Question *waves at TheEngineer*
« Reply #38 on: July 17, 2007, 05:58:44 PM »
So when did nature not become an observer?
Always been that way. Check out QP, for example.

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TheEngineer

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Re: Relativity Question *waves at TheEngineer*
« Reply #39 on: July 17, 2007, 07:28:47 PM »
We must be traveling at FTL speeds, as we've had this same argument before, so we must have violated causality.

Quote from: Heinz Pagels
Some recent popularizers of Bell's work when confronted with [Bell's inequality] have gone on to claim that telepathy is verified or the mystical notion that all parts of the universe are instantaneously interconnected is vindicated. Others assert that this implies communication faster than the speed of light. That is rubbish; the quantum theory and Bell's inequality imply nothing of this kind. Individuals who make such claims have substituted a wish-fulfilling fantasy for understanding. If we closely examine Bell's experiment we will see a bit of sleight of hand by the God that plays dice which rules out actual nonlocal influences. Just as we think we have captured a really weird beast--like acausal influences--it slips out of our grasp. The slippery property of quantum reality is again manifested.

Did you forget about the no communication theorem?

Or the fact that we were talking about GR?


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
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Gulliver

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Re: Relativity Question *waves at TheEngineer*
« Reply #40 on: July 17, 2007, 07:42:48 PM »
We must be traveling at FTL speeds, as we've had this same argument before, so we must have violated causality.

Quote from: Heinz Pagels
Some recent popularizers of Bell's work when confronted with [Bell's inequality] have gone on to claim that telepathy is verified or the mystical notion that all parts of the universe are instantaneously interconnected is vindicated. Others assert that this implies communication faster than the speed of light. That is rubbish; the quantum theory and Bell's inequality imply nothing of this kind. Individuals who make such claims have substituted a wish-fulfilling fantasy for understanding. If we closely examine Bell's experiment we will see a bit of sleight of hand by the God that plays dice which rules out actual nonlocal influences. Just as we think we have captured a really weird beast--like acausal influences--it slips out of our grasp. The slippery property of quantum reality is again manifested.

Did you forget about the no communication theorem?

Or the fact that we were talking about GR?
Nope. You're just confused in your thinking that nature is an observer and thereby constrained by the no-communications theorem. It's a common mistake.

Oh, and you really should put a date on your Pagels quote. He was great, but QP has moved on. Try to find a quote to support your belief from anytime after the October 26, 1998 AIP web reference or the associated APL article.

Oh, and I'm perfectly happy to demonstrate again to you the error of your ways. Don't hesitate to ask for help on anything you don't understand, such as nature not being an observer.

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TheEngineer

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Re: Relativity Question *waves at TheEngineer*
« Reply #41 on: July 17, 2007, 08:53:50 PM »
Quote from: Wiki on QE
Observations on entangled states naively appear to conflict with the property of relativity that information cannot be transferred faster than the speed of light. Although two entangled systems appear to interact across large spatial separations, no useful information can be transmitted in this way, so causality cannot be violated through entanglement. This is the statement of no communication theorem.

Although no information can be transmitted through entanglement alone, it is possible to transmit information using a set of entangled states used in conjunction with a classical information channel. This process is known as quantum teleportation. Despite its name, quantum teleportation cannot be used to transmit information faster than light, because a classical information channel is required.

Now, like I said, did you forget what we were talking about? 
« Last Edit: July 17, 2007, 08:56:01 PM by TheEngineer »


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
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Gulliver

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Re: Relativity Question *waves at TheEngineer*
« Reply #42 on: July 17, 2007, 09:07:27 PM »
Quote from: Wiki on QE
Observations on entangled states naively appear to conflict with the property of relativity that information cannot be transferred faster than the speed of light. Although two entangled systems appear to interact across large spatial separations, no useful information can be transmitted in this way, so causality cannot be violated through entanglement. This is the statement of no communication theorem.

Although no information can be transmitted through entanglement alone, it is possible to transmit information using a set of entangled states used in conjunction with a classical information channel. This process is known as quantum teleportation. Despite its name, quantum teleportation cannot be used to transmit information faster than light, because a classical information channel is required.

Now, like I said, did you forget what we were talking about? 

I haven't forgotten. Thanks for adding that copy-and-paste to the thread.

No useful information can be transmitted FTL. We can't create a causality violation. Did you think that I thought otherwise? Oh, and please ratchet up the quality of your references. Wikipedia just pales so much against APL, don't you think? Don't forget "after 1998" this time.

Oh, and while you're out there on the Internet searching, keep an eye out for your quote of Einstein: "gravity as a force does not exist".

Oh, and don't forget to let us know how Wikipedia should be updated with your single FoR that explains how two people are held down on the surface of the Earth, on opposite sides of the Earth, without portraying gravity as a force. We really need to get your insights into GR out there in Wikipedia, for the public good!

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Gulliver

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Re: Relativity Question *waves at TheEngineer*
« Reply #43 on: July 17, 2007, 09:43:15 PM »
Oh, just to help you out on understanding non-locality , here's a nice straightforward article:
Spooky Action at a Distance

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cbarnett97

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Re: Relativity Question *waves at TheEngineer*
« Reply #44 on: July 17, 2007, 09:57:31 PM »
I guess I'm a little hesitant to agree with TomG...

Doesn't gravity work at FTL speeds? If I had an instrument that were unbelievable sensitive to changes in gravity... Couldn't we communicate, lightyears apart, by simply waving our arms around?
That really depends on if gravitational waves really do exist. If they do exist then(Which I believe they do) then no because gravity can only travel at c however if they do not exist then that would mean that Newton was right and we could communicate across the universe in an instant. Too bad according to FE we can not prove they exist.
Only 2 things are infinite the universe and human stupidity, but I am not sure about the former.

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TheEngineer

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Re: Relativity Question *waves at TheEngineer*
« Reply #45 on: July 17, 2007, 11:05:13 PM »
No useful information can be transmitted FTL.
Oh, good Lord... ::)  Did you just realize how stupid you made yourself seem so you had to quickly 'change' what you were talking about?

Quote
Oh, and please ratchet up the quality of your references. Wikipedia just pales so much against APL, don't you think?
No.

Quote
Oh, and while you're out there on the Internet searching, keep an eye out for your quote of Einstein: "gravity as a force does not exist".

Quote from: GR
In general relativity, the effects of gravitation are ascribed to spacetime curvature instead of to a force.
I'm pretty sure Einstein would not have thought differently, as it's his theory. ::)

Quote
Oh, and don't forget to let us know how Wikipedia should be updated with your single FoR that explains how two people are held down on the surface of the Earth, on opposite sides of the Earth, without portraying gravity as a force.
Geodesics as in, the things that cause gravitation, in GR, which you seem to agree with only every once in a while.

Quote
Oh, just to help you out on understanding non-locality
You are the one that needs the help in understanding it.


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
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Gulliver

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Re: Relativity Question *waves at TheEngineer*
« Reply #46 on: July 17, 2007, 11:39:59 PM »
No useful information can be transmitted FTL.
Oh, good Lord... ::)  Did you just realize how stupid you made yourself seem so you had to quickly 'change' what you were talking about?

Quote
Oh, and please ratchet up the quality of your references. Wikipedia just pales so much against APL, don't you think?
No.

Quote
Oh, and while you're out there on the Internet searching, keep an eye out for your quote of Einstein: "gravity as a force does not exist".

Quote from: GR
In general relativity, the effects of gravitation are ascribed to spacetime curvature instead of to a force.
I'm pretty sure Einstein would not have thought differently, as it's his theory. ::)

Quote
Oh, and don't forget to let us know how Wikipedia should be updated with your single FoR that explains how two people are held down on the surface of the Earth, on opposite sides of the Earth, without portraying gravity as a force.
Geodesics as in, the things that cause gravitation, in GR, which you seem to agree with only every once in a while.

Quote
Oh, just to help you out on understanding non-locality
You are the one that needs the help in understanding it.

Evading every question I see. How sad. You have the articles. You have the text. You have been pointed to your misunderstanding that Nature is not an observer. You have in hand, text from AIP, the link to the APL article, the relevant Wikipedia entry, and the "simple" article on eeng all showing that that Nature probably transmits information FTL.

You've failed for hours now to produce the quote you ascribed to Einstein, "Gravity as a force does not exist." Relying on Wikipedia's short summary, and ignoring the more detailed text, to justify your quote. Even Wikipedia disagrees with you.

You've failed to produce a single FoR that does not need to portray gravity as a force in order to explain how two people standing on opposite sides of the Earth remain on Earth. Even Wikipedia disagrees with you. You evade the challenge with your standard "Horses and the feathers they don't have" reply. We see through your pompous attitude, especially when you can't deliver.

You failed to find a reference that supports your claim that Nature cannot transmit information FTL, beyond something before 1988.

You make the outlandish statement that a top-shelf peer-reviewed reference is inferior to Wikipedia. That's really lame.

I guess we're just seeing you run for cover when you have to face that you're wrong.

Oh, and I have never maintain that useful, as in useful to the observers, information can be transferred FTL. You on the other hand have claimed that Nature cannot do so by misapplying No-Communications Theory, failing to understand that Nature is not an observer.

Oh, and one more thing, I hope you finally used the search feature that you're so pompous about referring others to and found the reason why FE doesn't support GR and how GR doesn't support FE. Let me know if you need help using it.


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divito the truthist

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Re: Relativity Question *waves at TheEngineer*
« Reply #47 on: July 18, 2007, 12:45:23 AM »
No useful information can be transmitted FTL.

Nice change.

"Many things such as shadows can go FTL but not in a useful way which can carry information."

"It has long been known theoretically that it is possible for the "group velocity" of light to exceed c ... However, it is not possible to use this technique to transfer information faster than c"


As for Einstein actually saying that, I believe TheEngineer was more so paraphrasing Einstein's findings, that are available in many places.

"It occurred to Einstein – thinking first of all in visual terms, as was usual for him – that if a man were falling from the roof of his house and tried to let anything drop, it would only move alongside him, thus indicating the equivalence of acceleration and gravity. In Einstein's words, "the acceleration of free fall with respect to the material is therefore a mighty argument that the postulate of relativity is to be extended to coordinate systems that move nonuniformly relative to one another . . . .""

- http://www.aip.org/history/einstein/essay-einsteins-third-paradise.htm

"Einstein said that gravity is a function of mass alright but not as a force exerted by the mass! To the scientists of his day these words amounted to scientific heresy. If gravity is not a force, they asked, then what is it? Einstein's answer is no less than life changing! Gravity, he said, is the result of the mass of an object bending space! Bending Space! Can you imagine? I cannot!

What Einstein was saying is that objects do not fall because of an attractive force reaching out of an object and pulling it to itself, as Newton said."


"Einstein revolutionized modern science by putting forward the theory that gravity is not a force like other forces, but is a result of the fact that space-time is not flat."

"About 50 years ago, Albert Einstein gave us a revolutionary explanation for the gravity we are familiar with. Einstein said gravity is not a force of attraction, as Isaac Newton described it, but rather, comes from the warping of space-time itself."


"This special theory of relativity , was inconsistent with the Newtonian theory of gravity , which said that objects attracted each other with a force that depended on the distance between them.

In 1915 Einstein made the revolutionary suggestion that gravity is not a force like other forces"


« Last Edit: July 18, 2007, 12:48:22 AM by divito »
Our existentialist, relativist, nihilist, determinist, fascist, eugenicist moderator hath returned.
Quote from: Fortuna
objectively good

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Gulliver

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Re: Relativity Question *waves at TheEngineer*
« Reply #48 on: July 18, 2007, 01:27:35 AM »
No useful information can be transmitted FTL.

Nice change.
What change?

Earth's gravity, denoted by g, refers to the attractive force that the Earth exerts on objects on or near its surface (or, more generally, objects anywhere in the Earth's vicinity).

As useful as the equivalence between gravitational and inertial effect might be, it does not constitute a complete theory of gravity. Notably, it cannot answer the following simple question: what keeps the people on the other side of the world from falling off? We might be able to explain gravity near our location on the Earth's surface as a fictitious force – as due to the fact that we have chosen a reference frame that is not in free fall. But a freely falling reference frame on our side of the Earth cannot explain why the people on the opposite side of the Earth experience a gravitational pull in the opposite direction.

A more subtle manifestation of the same effect involves two bodies that are falling side by side towards the Earth. In a reference frame that is in free fall alongside these bodies, they appear to hover weightlessly – but not completely so: after all, if you look more closely, these bodies are not falling in the same direction, but towards the same point in space: the Earth's center of gravity. Because of this, there is a minute component of motion bringing the two bodies ever closer to each other (see the image at right).

Whenever bodies fall in different directions or at different rates due to differences in the strength and direction of gravitational forces, we are dealing with what are called tidal effects (since such differences in force are also responsible for the tides in the Earth's oceans). The equivalence between inertia and gravity cannot explain these tidal effects – it cannot explain the variation of the gravitational field from location to location.[9]

How to recognize fictitious forces / accelerated reference frames
     So, suppose we observe things moving in a way which suggests that forces are acting on them. How can we tell whether we are in an inertial reference frame, and the forces we observe are real, or whether we are in an accelerated reference frame, and the forces we observe are "fictitious"? The answer lies in the Force Law, which specifies that the acceleration which an object receives depends not only on the force acting on it, but also on its own mass, or inertia, or resistance to a change in its motion. For real forces, there is no guarantee that the force acting on the object and the mass of the object will produce a particular acceleration. The acceleration could be large or small, for a given force, depending upon how much inertia the object has. For fictitious forces, all objects seem to be accelerated in the same way, which means that the force acting on the objects seems to be directly proportional to the inertia of the object. Things that have little inertia seem to have little force acting on them, and things that have a lot of inertia seem to have a lot of force acting on them.
     In mathematical terms, real forces Freal acting on different masses m will produce varying accelerations a, according to the rule
Freal = m a

where a could have any value, while fictitious forces Ffictitious acting on different masses will all produce the same acceleration aconstant, according to the rule
Ffictitious = m aconstant

     So if we see different objects moving with different accelerations, at least some of those accelerations, and the forces causing them, must be real; whereas if we see different objects moving with the same acceleration, the accelerations are probably not real, but a mirror-image of an acceleration of the reference frame, and forces required to explain them are "fictitious".

Is Gravity A Fictitious Force?
     There is one situation in which we see accelerations which are the same, and presume that the forces causing those accelerations are real -- namely, when we see objects falling toward the Earth, under the influence of gravity. No matter what the objects are made of, or how big or small they are, all objects fall under the influence of gravity with exactly the same acceleration, the acceleration of gravity. Solids, liquids, gases, green cheese, moonbeams, fairy dust and horsefeathers would all fall the same under the influence of gravity, as would sand grains, pebbles, boulders, mountains, moons and planets. Because of this we write the Force Law in a special way for the force of gravity, replacing the force F with the object's weight W, and the acceleration a with the acceleration of gravity, g, thusly
W = m g

     The fact that gravity, like fictitious forces, involves a constant acceleration, makes us wonder whether gravity could be a fictitious force. It's hard to imagine that anything so pervasive and seemingly real could be "fictitious", but the forces experienced by the person in the accelerated car feel real, and are presumably fictitious. Is there some way that we could create the phenomenon of gravity, without the force?
     There is indeed such a way. Suppose that you were in a rocket ship, headed upwards at the acceleration of gravity, so that anything not attached to the ship seems to "fall" with a mirror image of that upward acceleration. Then every such object would fall toward the back of the ship, at the acceleration of gravity, and trying to stop such a fall would require a force, in the direction of the acceleration, proportional to the object's mass, which would be equal to, and appear to be, its real weight.
     Of course, we can't explain gravity in that way, as that would require every part of the Earth to be accelerating upward and outward, which would make the Earth bigger and bigger, which is not observed. So the simplest explanation is to assume that, peculiar though it may be, gravity -- although a perfectly real force -- acts as though it is a fictitious force. No other real force is known to act in this way, but perhaps gravity is "special", and it is merely a coincidence that it looks like a fictitious force.
     The strange and in some ways disturbing answer to this supposition is that the phenomenon of gravity (the fact that things fall, and have weight) is real, but the force of gravity, as described by Newton, is not a real force, but a fictitious force. According to Einstein's General Theory of Relativity, gravity is a curvature of space-time such that in the future, things are closer together than they are now, even if they are moving in straight, parallel lines, with no force between them. For in curved space-time, there is no such thing as a straight line, but instead, only curved lines, called geodesics, which are the straightest possible paths in curved space-time, but are always and inexorably curved. (for now, see the chapter on black holes and general relativity in the text for a more detailed discussion) And since curved paths, in our experience, require some centripetal force to create them, the motion of things along geodesics seems to require some force to explain the acceleration observed, as a result of that curvature.
     So we see things falling, with an acceleration which we call the acceleration of gravity, and thinking that we live in a straight-line, uniformly moving or stationary inertial reference frame, we attribute that acceleration to a force, the force of gravity. Whereas in reality, objects falling toward the Earth are moving along geodesic paths, with no acceleration, and according to a modified version of the Law of Inertia (objects which are at rest tend to remain at rest, and objects which are moving tend to move along geodesic paths with uniform motion, unless some force acts on them), have no force acting on them. They fall simply because the curved space-time near the Earth makes it natural for them to be closer to us in the future, than they are now.
     But if no force is required to make them fall, why do they seem to have weight, when we hold them? In Newton's physics, the weight we perceive is a direct measure of the force of gravity acting on them. How can they have weight, if there is no force acting on them?
     The answer is, that if we are holding them, there is a force acting on them, namely the upward force we are exerting, which keeps them from doing what they are supposed to do, namely fall. And of course that upward force on the object we're holding creates a reaction force, which is downward and equal to the upward force we are exerting, and that is what we are observing, when we observe that something has weight. In fact, even when we perceive our own weight, that is what we are observing. Whatever is keeping us from falling is pushing us upward, with a force equal to our "weight", and what we think is our weight, pushing downward, is just a reaction to that upward push. If there weren't anything pushing us upward -- if, for example, we were to jump off the top of the D building -- we would feel no upward force, and would therefore feel "weightless". We would presume that we weren't really weightless, because the ground is rapidly rising to meet us, but that isn't because we have weight, but because it is natural, in the absence of a force preventing it, for us to fall toward the Earth, along a space-time geodesic. (splat conveying the distinct notion that there's some force around here, somewhere, Einstein's Theory or not)

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Bushido

Re: Relativity Question *waves at TheEngineer*
« Reply #49 on: July 18, 2007, 01:33:16 AM »
Photons are not traveling at c because they are emitted at that speed. This has been shown by cooling a photon, which slows it, then warming it, which speeds it back up to c. If it can only attain a velocity of c during its initial emition, these types of experiments could never work.

How do you measure the temperature of a single photon?

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Gulliver

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Re: Relativity Question *waves at TheEngineer*
« Reply #50 on: July 18, 2007, 01:59:20 AM »
Photons are not traveling at c because they are emitted at that speed. This has been shown by cooling a photon, which slows it, then warming it, which speeds it back up to c. If it can only attain a velocity of c during its initial emition, these types of experiments could never work.

How do you measure the temperature of a single photon?
Well, first you get a really small thermometer. Then you hold the photon face down in one hand and the thermometer in the other. Then you gently insert .... Oh wait, wrong forum, never mind.

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CommonCents

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Re: Relativity Question *waves at TheEngineer*
« Reply #51 on: July 18, 2007, 06:40:17 AM »
No useful information can be transmitted FTL.

Nice change.
What change?

Earth's gravity, denoted by g, refers to the attractive force that the Earth exerts on objects on or near its surface (or, more generally, objects anywhere in the Earth's vicinity).

I thought g meant grams =/
OMG!

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TheEngineer

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Re: Relativity Question *waves at TheEngineer*
« Reply #52 on: July 18, 2007, 07:48:59 AM »
As useful as the equivalence between gravitational and inertial effect might be, it does not constitute a complete theory of gravity. Notably, it cannot answer the following simple question: what keeps the people on the other side of the world from falling off?
I find it quite strange that a supposed university instructor would constantly refer to GR as just the EP. 


Like I said earlier, I may just have to stop responding, as you will just prove me right all on your own.  From your own post:
Quote
     The strange and in some ways disturbing answer to this supposition is that the phenomenon of gravity (the fact that things fall, and have weight) is real, but the force of gravity, as described by Newton, is not a real force, but a fictitious force. According to Einstein's General Theory of Relativity, gravity is a curvature of space-time such that in the future, things are closer together than they are now, even if they are moving in straight, parallel lines, with no force between them. For in curved space-time, there is no such thing as a straight line, but instead, only curved lines, called geodesics, which are the straightest possible paths in curved space-time, but are always and inexorably curved. (for now, see the chapter on black holes and general relativity in the text for a more detailed discussion) And since curved paths, in our experience, require some centripetal force to create them, the motion of things along geodesics seems to require some force to explain the acceleration observed, as a result of that curvature.
     So we see things falling, with an acceleration which we call the acceleration of gravity, and thinking that we live in a straight-line, uniformly moving or stationary inertial reference frame, we attribute that acceleration to a force, the force of gravity. Whereas in reality, objects falling toward the Earth are moving along geodesic paths, with no acceleration, and according to a modified version of the Law of Inertia (objects which are at rest tend to remain at rest, and objects which are moving tend to move along geodesic paths with uniform motion, unless some force acts on them), have no force acting on them. They fall simply because the curved space-time near the Earth makes it natural for them to be closer to us in the future, than they are now.
     But if no force is required to make them fall, why do they seem to have weight, when we hold them? In Newton's physics, the weight we perceive is a direct measure of the force of gravity acting on them. How can they have weight, if there is no force acting on them?
     The answer is, that if we are holding them, there is a force acting on them, namely the upward force we are exerting, which keeps them from doing what they are supposed to do, namely fall. And of course that upward force on the object we're holding creates a reaction force, which is downward and equal to the upward force we are exerting, and that is what we are observing, when we observe that something has weight. In fact, even when we perceive our own weight, that is what we are observing. Whatever is keeping us from falling is pushing us upward, with a force equal to our "weight", and what we think is our weight, pushing downward, is just a reaction to that upward push. If there weren't anything pushing us upward -- if, for example, we were to jump off the top of the D building -- we would feel no upward force, and would therefore feel "weightless". We would presume that we weren't really weightless, because the ground is rapidly rising to meet us, but that isn't because we have weight, but because it is natural, in the absence of a force preventing it, for us to fall toward the Earth, along a space-time geodesic. (splat conveying the distinct notion that there's some force around here, somewhere, Einstein's Theory or not)

I bolded and made the important parts bigger, as you seem to have a really hard time reading.  Thank you for making this so easy, you are a real help.  Good job, you get a gold star!


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
        -- Bob Hudson

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Gulliver

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Re: Relativity Question *waves at TheEngineer*
« Reply #53 on: July 18, 2007, 12:08:43 PM »
As useful as the equivalence between gravitational and inertial effect might be, it does not constitute a complete theory of gravity. Notably, it cannot answer the following simple question: what keeps the people on the other side of the world from falling off?
I find it quite strange that a supposed university instructor would constantly refer to GR as just the EP. 


Like I said earlier, I may just have to stop responding, as you will just prove me right all on your own.  From your own post:
Quote
     ....

I bolded and made the important parts bigger, as you seem to have a really hard time reading.  Thank you for making this so easy, you are a real help.  Good job, you get a gold star!
Where do I say that the GR is just the EP? You used a quote from Wikipedia to build your straw man.

I know that it goes against your principles, but I quote entire articles, even when sections, taken out of context, don't support me. I suggest that you try reading the entire posting. Oh, and if you get the chance, try being honest too.

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: Relativity Question *waves at TheEngineer*
« Reply #54 on: July 18, 2007, 12:11:24 PM »
Like I said earlier, I may just have to stop responding, as you will just prove me right all on your own. 

Gulliver the Hypocrite's good at that!  ;D
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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TheEngineer

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Re: Relativity Question *waves at TheEngineer*
« Reply #55 on: July 18, 2007, 12:23:16 PM »
I know that it goes against your principles, but I quote entire articles, even when sections, taken out of context, don't support me. I suggest that you try reading the entire posting. Oh, and if you get the chance, try being honest too.
So your own source proves you wrong, so you cry about it being taken out of context? 

That's an evasion tactic even TomB would be proud of.


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
        -- Bob Hudson

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Gulliver

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Re: Relativity Question *waves at TheEngineer*
« Reply #56 on: July 18, 2007, 12:53:42 PM »
I know that it goes against your principles, but I quote entire articles, even when sections, taken out of context, don't support me. I suggest that you try reading the entire posting. Oh, and if you get the chance, try being honest too.
So your own source proves you wrong, so you cry about it being taken out of context? 

That's an evasion tactic even TomB would be proud of.
The source proves me correct.

As useful as the equivalence between gravitational and inertial effect might be, it does not constitute a complete theory of gravity. Notably, it cannot answer the following simple question: what keeps the people on the other side of the world from falling off? We might be able to explain gravity near our location on the Earth's surface as a fictitious force – as due to the fact that we have chosen a reference frame that is not in free fall. But a freely falling reference frame on our side of the Earth cannot explain why the people on the opposite side of the Earth experience a gravitational pull in the opposite direction.

Of course, we can't explain gravity in that way, as that would require every part of the Earth to be accelerating upward and outward, which would make the Earth bigger and bigger, which is not observed. So the simplest explanation is to assume that, peculiar though it may be, gravity -- although a perfectly real force -- acts as though it is a fictitious force. No other real force is known to act in this way, but perhaps gravity is "special", and it is merely a coincidence that it looks like a fictitious force.

[C]onveying the distinct notion that there's some force around here, somewhere, Einstein's Theory or not
-----------
Oh and speaking of evading... Where's the FoR and explanation of how gravity as a force isn't need in the two-person on opposite sides of the Earth that we need to get into Wikipedia? Where's that quote from Einstein that "gravity as a force does not exist"? Where's that proof that nature is an observer? Where's that reference after 1998 that Nature does not send information FTL? That's four open issues that you've been evading for almost a whole day.

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Gulliver

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Re: Relativity Question *waves at TheEngineer*
« Reply #57 on: July 18, 2007, 12:54:58 PM »
Like I said earlier, I may just have to stop responding, as you will just prove me right all on your own.

Gulliver the Hypocrite's good at that!  ;D
Do we need to have that argument again? You already conceded once. Geesh, some people.

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CommonCents

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Re: Relativity Question *waves at TheEngineer*
« Reply #58 on: July 18, 2007, 12:59:19 PM »
I know that it goes against your principles, but I quote entire articles, even when sections, taken out of context, don't support me. I suggest that you try reading the entire posting. Oh, and if you get the chance, try being honest too.
So your own source proves you wrong, so you cry about it being taken out of context? 

That's an evasion tactic even TomB would be proud of.
The source proves me correct.

As useful as the equivalence between gravitational and inertial effect might be, it does not constitute a complete theory of gravity. Notably, it cannot answer the following simple question: what keeps the people on the other side of the world from falling off? We might be able to explain gravity near our location on the Earth's surface as a fictitious force – as due to the fact that we have chosen a reference frame that is not in free fall. But a freely falling reference frame on our side of the Earth cannot explain why the people on the opposite side of the Earth experience a gravitational pull in the opposite direction.

Of course, we can't explain gravity in that way, as that would require every part of the Earth to be accelerating upward and outward, which would make the Earth bigger and bigger, which is not observed. So the simplest explanation is to assume that, peculiar though it may be, gravity -- although a perfectly real force -- acts as though it is a fictitious force. No other real force is known to act in this way, but perhaps gravity is "special", and it is merely a coincidence that it looks like a fictitious force.

[C]onveying the distinct notion that there's some force around here, somewhere, Einstein's Theory or not
-----------
Oh and speaking of evading... Where's the FoR and explanation of how gravity as a force isn't need in the two-person on opposite sides of the Earth that we need to get into Wikipedia? Where's that quote from Einstein that "gravity as a force does not exist"? Where's that proof that nature is an observer? Where's that reference after 1998 that Nature does not send information FTL? That's four open issues that you've been evading for almost a whole day.



The curvature in spacetime keeps them from falling off.  You're right in saying that the Equivalence Principle is not a full theory of gravitation.  General Relativity, however, is.  The Equivalence Principle is what led Einstein to develop General Relativity, in which SPACETIME BENDS, to be a better theory of gravitation.
OMG!

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divito the truthist

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Re: Relativity Question *waves at TheEngineer*
« Reply #59 on: July 18, 2007, 12:59:31 PM »
I'll post again:

"It occurred to Einstein – thinking first of all in visual terms, as was usual for him – that if a man were falling from the roof of his house and tried to let anything drop, it would only move alongside him, thus indicating the equivalence of acceleration and gravity. In Einstein's words, "the acceleration of free fall with respect to the material is therefore a mighty argument that the postulate of relativity is to be extended to coordinate systems that move nonuniformly relative to one another . . . .""
- http://www.aip.org/history/einstein/essay-einsteins-third-paradise.htm

"Einstein said that gravity is a function of mass alright but not as a force exerted by the mass! To the scientists of his day these words amounted to scientific heresy. If gravity is not a force, they asked, then what is it? Einstein's answer is no less than life changing! Gravity, he said, is the result of the mass of an object bending space! Bending Space! Can you imagine? I cannot!

What Einstein was saying is that objects do not fall because of an attractive force reaching out of an object and pulling it to itself, as Newton said."


"Einstein revolutionized modern science by putting forward the theory that gravity is not a force like other forces, but is a result of the fact that space-time is not flat."

"About 50 years ago, Albert Einstein gave us a revolutionary explanation for the gravity we are familiar with. Einstein said gravity is not a force of attraction, as Isaac Newton described it, but rather, comes from the warping of space-time itself."


"This special theory of relativity , was inconsistent with the Newtonian theory of gravity , which said that objects attracted each other with a force that depended on the distance between them.

In 1915 Einstein made the revolutionary suggestion that gravity is not a force like other forces"
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