Weather forecasting.

How is it possible to make weather predictions without satellite images? Doppler has its limitations and so do other prediction methods, so how do we determine fronts and pressure zones without satellite images? And how are cloud cover maps made in real time? I don't see how "Joe Fotoshop" can sit behind a desk all day and hammer out accurate images that concur with predictions made from the previous image.

ignoring the fact that no weatherman has ever been correct about the weather...

Any meaningful reading is done from ground sensors.

ignoring the fact that no weatherman has ever been correct about the weather...

Any meaningful reading is done from ground sensors.

Evidence of your outlandish claim? None.

Hurricane predictions are a great example of how satellite imaging saves lives.

we're still arguing about this shit? how are you everyone.

we're still arguing about this shit? how are you everyone.

Uhhm, the shits never changed

Hmm...  Stratelittes?

So why do you waste your time? No one is asking you to stay.

Bump.

"Components of a modern weather forecasting system include:

    * Data collection
    * Data assimilation
    * Numerical weather prediction
    * Model output post-processing
    * Forecast presentation to end-user

[edit] Data collection

Observations of atmospheric pressure, temperature, wind speed, wind direction, humidity, precipitation are made near the earth's surface by trained observers, automatic weather stations or buoys. The World Meteorological Organization acts to standardize the instrumentation, observing practices and timing of these observations worldwide. Stations either report hourly in METAR reports, or every six hours in SYNOP reports.

Measurements of temperature, humidity and wind above the surface are found by launching radiosondes (weather balloon). Data are usually obtained from near the surface to the middle of the stratosphere, about 30,000 m (100,000 ft). In recent years, data transmitted from commercial airplanes through the AMDAR system has also been incorporated into upper air observation, primarily in numerical models.

Increasingly, data from weather satellites are being used due to their (almost) global coverage. Although their visible light images are very useful for forecasters to see development of clouds, little of this information can be used by numerical weather prediction models. The infra-red (IR) data however can be used as it gives information on the temperature at the surface and cloud tops. Individual clouds can also be tracked from one time to the next to provide information on wind direction and strength at the clouds steering level. Polar orbiting satellites provide soundings of temperature and moisture throughout the depth of the atmosphere. Compared with similar data from radiosondes, the satellite data has the advantage that coverage is global, however the accuracy and resolution is not as good.

Meteorological radar provide information on precipitation location and intensity. Additionally, if doppler radar are used then wind speed and direction can be determined.[5]"

If that is really all the satellites are claimed to do, it doesn't appear that they are a complete necessity if they truly exist. Doesn't seem outlandish that it could all be done with preexisting technology and methods.

Where did you go rentacow? I know you've been on since I replied to this.

umm yeah... so? Are you trying to tell me meteorologists don't find satellites useful?

umm yeah... so? Are you trying to tell me meteorologists don't find satellites useful?

If they really do exist, by what I pasted and bolded, it doesn't seem like they are incredibly useful.

Quote from: rentacow on July 12, 2007, 09:48:26 AM

umm yeah... so? Are you trying to tell me meteorologists don't find satellites useful?

If they really do exist, by what I pasted and bolded, it doesn't seem like they are incredibly useful.

You avoid the question. Yes, satellites, by what you pasted, do exist and are useful.

You avoid the question. Yes, satellites, by what you pasted, do exist and are useful.

I didn't avoid the question. I didn't feel like answering blindly and getting caught in an incorrect trap.

"Although their visible light images are very useful for forecasters to see development of clouds, little of this information can be used by numerical weather prediction models."

"Compared with similar data from radiosondes, the satellite data has the advantage that coverage is global, however the accuracy and resolution is not as good."

They get to see clouds as they develop and it covers more area. Big whoop. Although, I suppose that just means that the capacity in which they're useful is incredibly low. It doesn't mean that they aren't useful in some way provided they exist.

So, Divito, how do they predict the path of hurricanes? And feel free to notice the dramatically increased accuracy of those predictions after the space age.

Predicting the weather is witchcraft! This is why God made Exodus 22:18.

Exodus 22:18 Thou shall not suffer a witch to live

Predicting the weather is witchcraft! This is why God made Exodus 22:18.

Exodus 22:18 Thou shall not suffer a witch to live

So god created witchcraft.  After all, you say god invented computers and put the idea into our brain.  So god invented Doppler radar, which we use to help forecast the weather.

Quote from: DanielPZC on July 12, 2007, 01:10:19 PM

Predicting the weather is witchcraft! This is why God made Exodus 22:18.

Exodus 22:18 Thou shall not suffer a witch to live

So god created witchcraft.  After all, you say god invented computers and put the idea into our brain.  So god invented Doppler radar, which we use to help forecast the weather.

But predicting the weather is considered witchcraft, and God orders witches to be killed.

Quote from: sokarul on July 12, 2007, 01:11:58 PM

Quote from: DanielPZC on July 12, 2007, 01:10:19 PM

Predicting the weather is witchcraft! This is why God made Exodus 22:18.

Exodus 22:18 Thou shall not suffer a witch to live

So god created witchcraft.  After all, you say god invented computers and put the idea into our brain.  So god invented Doppler radar, which we use to help forecast the weather.

But predicting the weather is considered witchcraft, and God orders witches to be killed.

Well then God created things so he can have a reason to kill people. 

So, Divito, how do they predict the path of hurricanes?

    * Data collection
    * Data assimilation
    * Numerical weather prediction
    * Model output post-processing
    * Forecast presentation to end-user

And feel free to notice the dramatically increased accuracy of those predictions after the space age.

Ya, that tends to happen as you accumulate more data over time.

Well then God created things so he can have a reason to kill people. 

Probably, what's so wrong with that though?

And how exactly do they gather the majority of data?

And how exactly do they gather the majority of data?

I already pasted that...

Oh... right. Getting data on hurricanes with weather balloons.

That make sense... 

Oh... right. Getting data on hurricanes with weather balloons.

That make sense... 

So can you disprove the bold in that data collection quote then?

I can't find a single article that mentions weather balloons being used to gather data on hurricanes.

Quote from: Gulliver on July 12, 2007, 12:23:38 PM

You avoid the question. Yes, satellites, by what you pasted, do exist and are useful.

I didn't avoid the question. I didn't feel like answering blindly and getting caught in an incorrect trap.

"Although their visible light images are very useful for forecasters to see development of clouds, little of this information can be used by numerical weather prediction models."

"Compared with similar data from radiosondes, the satellite data has the advantage that coverage is global, however the accuracy and resolution is not as good."

They get to see clouds as they develop and it covers more area. Big whoop. Although, I suppose that just means that the capacity in which they're useful is incredibly low. It doesn't mean that they aren't useful in some way provided they exist.

You continue to omit that the infrared spectra data is input into the numerical analysis. You continue to omit that the article does say the satellites exist. It seems odd that you would use an article to substantiate the lack of usefulness of satellite and chose to ignore that the same article in which you put stock substantiates their existence, and that weather prediction uses data from these satellites that are not otherwise available.

You continue to omit that the infrared spectra data is input into the numerical analysis.

I'm not omitting anything. I simply answered rentacow's question by pasting relevant information.

You continue to omit that the article does say the satellites exist.

I know that it says they exist, I am the one who pasted the quote.

It seems odd that you would use an article to substantiate the lack of usefulness of satellite and chose to ignore that the same article in which you put stock substantiates their existence, and that weather prediction uses data from these satellites that are not otherwise available.

I never claimed they weren't useful, I only discovered that after finding answers to his questions. If we were to believe that satellites don't exist, for obvious reasons in an FE, then making bold statements would be inaccurate. Stratellites and radiosondes seem to cover a good base for the numerical prediction models that are stated to be used.

Although, the stratellite is fairly new technology, so they would have to account for that supposed satellite information elsewhere.

It isn't possible to predict hurricanes and other weather events without satellites. That is the basis of my argument.

It isn't possible to predict hurricanes and other weather events without satellites. That is the basis of my argument.

I wouldn't go as far as to say that.

"High-speed computers and sophisticated simulation software allow forecasters to produce computer models that forecast tropical cyclone tracks based on the future position and strength of high- and low-pressure systems. Combining forecast models with increased understanding of the forces that act on tropical cyclones, and a wealth of data from Earth-orbiting satellites and other sensors, scientists have increased the accuracy of track forecasts over recent decades.[2] The addition of dropwindsonde missions around tropical cyclones in what are known as synoptic flow missions in the Atlantic Basin decreased track error by 15-20 percent.[3] An accurate track forecast is important, because if the track forecast is incorrect, forecasts for intensity, rainfall, storm surge, and tornado threat will also be incorrect."

It does include data from satellites, but based on the other quote regarding data collection, their information wouldn't be as reliable or accurate. I'm also not knowledgeable regarding LEO's and the like and what would be required to simulate a satellite.

I can't find a single article that mentions weather balloons being used to gather data on hurricanes.

Why not?  They do it with airplanes quite often.