Question for FEers

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Question for FEers
« on: April 03, 2006, 02:32:20 PM »
I was wondering, since I know you think that the whole flying around the globe thing is a government conspiracy; are you afraid to get on an airplane?  Do you believe that it's possible for the plane to accidentally fly off the earth?

Also, since the earth is constantly accelerating upwards at 9.81m/s^2, wouldn't it be going at quite an ungodly velocity by now?  And at increased speeds, wind resistance increases exponentially, so wouldn't the rate of acceleration slow, thus eventually eliminating the fake sense of gravity?

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iamnate

Question for FEers
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2006, 02:39:25 PM »
If the earth was constantly accelerating in one direction, and thus increasing  air resistance, wouldn't there be increasing atmospheric pressure?

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joffenz

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Re: Question for FEers
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2006, 02:48:49 PM »
Quote from: "iamchris"
I was wondering, since I know you think that the whole flying around the globe thing is a government conspiracy; are you afraid to get on an airplane?  Do you believe that it's possible for the plane to accidentally fly off the earth?


It's still possible to fly around a flat Earth. Planes could fly off the FE but then your pilot would be some sort of lunatic who diverts his normal flight plan to fly over the edge. Besides, I imagine the government would stop a plane that gets too near the wall.

Quote from: "iamchris"

Also, since the earth is constantly accelerating upwards at 9.81m/s^2, wouldn't it be going at quite an ungodly velocity by now?  And at increased speeds, wind resistance increases exponentially, so wouldn't the rate of acceleration slow, thus eventually eliminating the fake sense of gravity?


The velocity would indeed be ungodly, but relative to what?

I don't think wind resistance would increase because the air is being pushed up by the Earth also.

Re: Question for FEers
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2006, 02:59:44 PM »
Quote from: "cheesejoff"

It's still possible to fly around a flat Earth. Planes could fly off the FE but then your pilot would be some sort of lunatic who diverts his normal flight plan to fly over the edge. Besides, I imagine the government would stop a plane that gets too near the wall.


You can't use the "i imagine..." logic if REers aren't allowed to.  Or else I could just say "I imagine the government wouldn't lie about the shape of the earth because there is no apparent reason to."  In the FAQ it states that even you guys do not have a conspiracy theory as to why such truths would be lied about.

Quote from: "cheesejoff"

The velocity would indeed be ungodly, but relative to what?

I don't think wind resistance would increase because the air is being pushed up by the Earth also.


Well, in saying what I said in my previous post, I was assuming a few things.  I don't fully understand FE position on the universe.  Is the universe comprised fully of air?  Or is it a vaccuum outside the earth's atmosphere?  If so, what keeps the air from escaping the earth's atmosphere?

1.  If the universe is all air, there would still be air above that would need to be displaced, assuming constant acceleration.  If this is so, the earth would eventually be slowed to a halt.

2.  If there is a natural vaccuum, since there is no such thing as gravity, the air would just escape earth's "atmosphere".

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WTF

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Re: Question for FEers
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2006, 03:04:11 PM »
Quote from: "cheesejoff"

The velocity would indeed be ungodly, but relative to what?


How about the speed of light?  If we're accelerating constantly at 9.8 m/s^2 then it'd take a little under a year to go from rest, to light speed.  Considering how many billions of years the earth has existed, I think it's safe to say that this whole idea of an upwards accelerating earth is extremely stupid.  Unless, of course, relativity (among other things...)at the most basic level is completely incorrect and there is no upper limit to velocity and no noticable effects of reaching those speeds.  It'd be hard to argue that though considering that relativity has passed every test we've thrown at it as well or better than every other scientific theory we have.

Question for FEers
« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2006, 03:11:21 PM »
Not to mention what is causing the upwards acceleration.  What is the force pushing earth?

And please, some FEer reply.

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EnragedPenguin

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Re: Question for FEers
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2006, 04:08:10 PM »
Quote from: "WTF"
How about the speed of light?  If we're accelerating constantly at 9.8 m/s^2 then it'd take a little under a year to go from rest, to light speed. *snip*


Actually there is a discussion on that very topic here.
A different world cannot be built by indifferent people.

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Erasmus

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Re: Question for FEers
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2006, 04:33:27 PM »
Quote from: "iamchris"
I was wondering, since I know you think that the whole flying around the globe thing is a government conspiracy; are you afraid to get on an airplane?


No.  Nor am I afraid that when I get on an airplane, I will accidentally land in the jungles of Zaire.  Pilots aren't stupid, or blind, fuel is limited, and the ice wall is far away.

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Do you believe that it's possible for the plane to accidentally fly off the earth?


Of course, just like it's possible to accidentally land in the jungles of Zaire.  Probability of this accident occurring is low, however.

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Also, since the earth is constantly accelerating upwards at 9.81m/s^2, wouldn't it be going at quite an ungodly velocity by now?


No, it wouln't.

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And at increased speeds, wind resistance increases exponentially,


It doesn't increase exponentially, but quadratically. with the relative velocity of the air and the object passing through it.  Fortunately, the relevant relative velocity is zero, since we are moving in the same direction the air is.

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so wouldn't the rate of acceleration slow, thus eventually eliminating the fake sense of gravity?


The rate of acceleration would asymptotically approach zero, but only from the perspective of an outside observer, and for reasons unrelated to wind resistance.

Hope this clears things up for you.

-Erasmus
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

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Erasmus

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Re: Question for FEers
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2006, 04:35:48 PM »
Quote from: "WTF"
Quote from: "cheesejoff"

The velocity would indeed be ungodly, but relative to what?


How about the speed of light?


The speed of light is relative to nothing.

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Unless, of course, relativity (among other things...)at the most basic level is completely incorrect


Interestingly, it is you, not relativity, who at the most basic level are completely incorrect.

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relativity has passed every test we've thrown at it as well or better than every other scientific theory we have.


If be "we" you mean "a community of people to whom I, WTF, clearly do not belong," then yes, that's true.

-Erasmus
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

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Erasmus

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Question for FEers
« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2006, 04:36:58 PM »
Quote from: "iamnate"
If the earth was constantly accelerating in one direction, and thus increasing  air resistance, wouldn't there be increasing atmospheric pressure?


Acceleration and force are proportional, and force and pressure are proportional, so if acceleration is constant, so is pressure.  Within the FE reference frame, acceleration is indeed constant, and thus, so is air pressure.
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

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Erasmus

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Re: Question for FEers
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2006, 04:40:45 PM »
Quote from: "iamchris"
Is the universe comprised fully of air?  Or is it a vaccuum outside the earth's atmosphere?  If so, what keeps the air from escaping the earth's atmosphere?


My understanding of the FE position is that the universe is indeed mostly vacuum.  That being said...

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1.  If the universe is all air, there would still be air above that would need to be displaced, assuming constant acceleration.  If this is so, the earth would eventually be slowed to a halt.


If you are assuming constant acceleration, then you cannot say that the Earth would eventually slow -- that implies a non-constant acceleration, and eventual deceleration.

Furthermore, consider a rocket in flight with a magical power source requiring no fuel.  It will not eventually slow to a halt, even though there is air resistance.

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2.  If there is a natural vaccuum, since there is no such thing as gravity, the air would just escape earth's "atmosphere".


Firstly, there is such a thing as gravity, but for reasons that FEers don't care to explain, the Earth does not generate any.

Second, the ice wall clearly holds in at least the lower 150' of atmosphere.  FE does not specify what holds in the rest, though surface tension or a solid dome surrounding the Earth may be responsible.

-Erasmus
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

Question for FEers
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2006, 05:26:43 PM »
By "for reasons that FEers don't care to explain", you surely mean "there are none".  Explain it, or nobody's going to believe you.

And I checked out that other thread where you state that nothing can go faster than the speed of light.  So what happens, the earth just keeps moving up at the speed of light?  That means acceleration turns to 0 and your "gravity" disappears.

This is an awful lot of conjecture for something with no proof whatsoever.

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Erasmus

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Question for FEers
« Reply #12 on: April 03, 2006, 05:48:52 PM »
Quote from: "iamchris"
By "for reasons that FEers don't care to explain", you surely mean "there are none".  Explain it, or nobody's going to believe you.


Surely, I mean, "They haven't offered any."

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And I checked out that other thread where you state that nothing can go faster than the speed of light.  So what happens, the earth just keeps moving up at the speed of light?  That means acceleration turns to 0 and your "gravity" disappears.


What happens from our perspective on the Earth, you mean?  Nothing changes over time.

What happens from the perspective of somebody observing the Earth from an inertial reference frame?  The Earth's acceleration decreases to zero, but its mass increases to infinity.  Its speed asymptotically approaches -- i.e., gets bigger and bigger forever but never reaches -- that of light.

-Erasmus
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

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iamnate

Question for FEers
« Reply #13 on: April 03, 2006, 06:01:11 PM »
It all makes sense now. Except it doesn't. I propose a new theory that the earth is shaped like a pretzel. Why? I dont care to explain.

Question for FEers
« Reply #14 on: April 03, 2006, 06:19:16 PM »
Quote from: "Erasmus"
Quote from: "iamchris"
By "for reasons that FEers don't care to explain", you surely mean "there are none".  Explain it, or nobody's going to believe you.


Surely, I mean, "They haven't offered any."

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And I checked out that other thread where you state that nothing can go faster than the speed of light.  So what happens, the earth just keeps moving up at the speed of light?  That means acceleration turns to 0 and your "gravity" disappears.


What happens from our perspective on the Earth, you mean?  Nothing changes over time.

What happens from the perspective of somebody observing the Earth from an inertial reference frame?  The Earth's acceleration decreases to zero, but its mass increases to infinity.  Its speed asymptotically approaches -- i.e., gets bigger and bigger forever but never reaches -- that of light.

-Erasmus


So that means that the "gravitational" force is going to logarighmically decrease, but never approach 0.  But it will still be a negligible amount of "gravity".  That would have happened by now, and we'd all be jumping in the air and floating around forever like in the matrix.

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EnragedPenguin

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Question for FEers
« Reply #15 on: April 03, 2006, 06:44:35 PM »
Quote from: "iamchris"
So that means that the "gravitational" force is going to logarighmically decrease, but never approach 0.  But it will still be a negligible amount of "gravity".  That would have happened by now, and we'd all be jumping in the air and floating around forever like in the matrix.


If we are constantly accelerating (not moving at) at 9.8 m/s^2  then no, the "gravitational" force shouldn't change at all.
A different world cannot be built by indifferent people.

Question for FEers
« Reply #16 on: April 03, 2006, 07:39:09 PM »
But I just explained how we wouldn't be accelerating at 9.81m/s^2.  You've either got constant acceleration, and all the air is sucked out due to the vaccuum, or you've got air resistance, and decreased acceleration, and BAM.  [Close to] zero gravity.  Eventually, of course.

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Erasmus

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Question for FEers
« Reply #17 on: April 04, 2006, 12:21:41 AM »
Quote from: "iamchris"
So that means that the "gravitational" force is going to logarighmically decrease, but never approach 0.  But it will still be a negligible amount of "gravity".  That would have happened by now, and we'd all be jumping in the air and floating around forever like in the matrix.


Not logarithmically; something... wierd.  The Earth's mass in a given reference frame is inversely proportional to sqrt(1 - v^2/c^2) where v is the Earth's velocity relative to that frame.  Since acceleration is inversely proportional to mass, it will be directly proportional to this value.

In any case, that doesn't discuss what *we on Earth* measure, but rather what somebody else in an outside, not-accelerating frame of reference measures.  We  don't notice this change at all; to us, our mass and acceleration never change, so we don't end up floating around, ever.

-Erasmus
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

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Erasmus

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Question for FEers
« Reply #18 on: April 04, 2006, 12:23:33 AM »
Quote from: "iamchris"
But I just explained how we wouldn't be accelerating at 9.81m/s^2.  You've either got constant acceleration, and all the air is sucked out due to the vaccuum, or you've got air resistance,


You haven't explained how the two are mutually exclusive, since you haven't demonstrated that the Earth is moving through air.

-Erasmus
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

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EnragedPenguin

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Question for FEers
« Reply #19 on: April 04, 2006, 06:44:24 AM »
Quote from: "Erasmus"
You haven't explained how the two are mutually exclusive, since you haven't demonstrated that the Earth is moving through air.

-Erasmus


I think he's saying that we have to be moving through air or else the atmosphere would be sucked out into the vaccum.
A different world cannot be built by indifferent people.

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joffenz

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Question for FEers
« Reply #20 on: April 04, 2006, 07:39:55 AM »
Quote from: "iamchris"
Not to mention what is causing the upwards acceleration.  What is the force pushing earth?


Dark Energy of course.

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Erasmus

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Question for FEers
« Reply #21 on: April 04, 2006, 08:14:29 AM »
Quote from: "EnragedPenguin"
Quote from: "Erasmus"
You haven't explained how the two are mutually exclusive, since you haven't demonstrated that the Earth is moving through air.

-Erasmus


I think he's saying that we have to be moving through air or else the atmosphere would be sucked out into the vaccum.


That's only because he hasn't responded to

Quote from: "I"
Second, the ice wall clearly holds in at least the lower 150' of atmosphere. FE does not specify what holds in the rest, though surface tension or a solid dome surrounding the Earth may be responsible.
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

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EnragedPenguin

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Question for FEers
« Reply #22 on: April 04, 2006, 02:42:47 PM »
Ah, I missed that. I was going to point that same thing out to him this morning but I didn't have time.
A different world cannot be built by indifferent people.

Re: Question for FEers
« Reply #23 on: April 04, 2006, 11:24:50 PM »
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If there is a natural vaccuum, since there is no such thing as gravity, the air would just escape earth's "atmosphere".


no, it wouldn't. God told it not to when he created everything
he world isn't round.
The world isn't flat.
How stupid are you?
anyone should be able to see it's a cube

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joffenz

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Re: Question for FEers
« Reply #24 on: April 05, 2006, 01:02:09 AM »
Quote from: "EmperorNero"
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If there is a natural vaccuum, since there is no such thing as gravity, the air would just escape earth's "atmosphere".


no, it wouldn't. God told it not to when he created everything


Using God to explain one part of FE theory just invalidates it, we're trying to make an FE theory that works under known scientific laws, simply saying "God did it" removes what little credability it has.

Re: Question for FEers
« Reply #25 on: April 06, 2006, 12:08:22 AM »
Quote from: "cheesejoff"
Quote from: "EmperorNero"
Quote
If there is a natural vaccuum, since there is no such thing as gravity, the air would just escape earth's "atmosphere".


no, it wouldn't. God told it not to when he created everything


Using God to explain one part of FE theory just invalidates it, we're trying to make an FE theory that works under known scientific laws, simply saying "God did it" removes what little credability it has.


actually i don't really care. I'm not here to prove anything, I'm here to disprove everything
he world isn't round.
The world isn't flat.
How stupid are you?
anyone should be able to see it's a cube