Disproving The Flat Earth

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Disproving The Flat Earth
« on: March 24, 2006, 11:55:45 PM »
Hey guys.

My name's Condraz23 and I believe that the Earth is round. Below, I have listed a few questions that I would like answered. There are many reasons I can think of. Now, here I go...

Many spacecraft have photographed pictures of the Earth and it is indeed, a sphere. How can this evidence be wrong?

When travelling in a straight direction, you will always reach the same point on the globe from where you started. How can this happen if the world is flat?

If the world was really flat, what would happen if you jump off the disc's edge?

The Earth is like any other planet. Scientists have confirmend this. Due to it's overall density, Earth has a gravitational velocity of 9.8m/ps^2. If the Earth was indeed a flat disc, wouldn't the whole planet crunch up into itself and eventually transform into a ball?

How come you can see the Earth's natural curve from very high altitudes? Such as planes and the summits of various mountains?

How would a disc-shaped planet survive under the harsh environment of space? Wouldn't it collapse or be unable to sustain an atmosphere?

What lies underneath a flat Earth? Is it the sun or the moon?

Why do planes and ships slip through a horizon instead of shrinking smaller and smaller? If the Earth was flat, we would be able to see the coastland of China from America by using a powerful telescope.

Thanks for taking the time to read through my thread. I'm looking forward to some answers. Who knows? I might even become a Flat-Earther too someday!

Anyway, cheers.

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Erasmus

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Re: Disproving The Flat Earth
« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2006, 02:16:23 AM »
A lot of this stuff is mysteriously absent from the FAQ.  So....

Quote from: "Condraz23"
Many spacecraft have photographed pictures of the Earth and it is indeed, a sphere. How can this evidence be wrong?


FE claims these photos are doctored as part of a worldwide government conspiracy to hide the truth.

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When travelling in a straight direction, you will always reach the same point on the globe from where you started. How can this happen if the world is flat?


Your statement is based on the assumption that the Earth is, in fact, a globe.  If it isn't, then it won't be the case that what you predict would occur.  So, have you taken a large number of trips, yourself, in straight lines around the world and reached the starting point?

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If the world was really flat, what would happen if you jump off the disc's edge?


You would enter an inertial reference frame, moving at a constant velocity in the direction the Earth was moving before you jumped.  The Earth would continue accelerating upwards past you at a rate of 1g, so it would appear to you that you were falling into space.

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The Earth is like any other planet.


Another assumption...

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Scientists have confirmend this.


How have they done this?  Was it using techniques you could replicate yourself?  Reproduction of results is a very important tool in science, but somewhat lacking in planetology.  Also, first-hand measurements tend to rare.

On the other hand, it's safe, I think, to assume that the Earth is just like itself, and consequently, just like bits of it that you may take out (only bigger, and more varied).  As it turns out, you can demonstrate a gravitational attraction between bits of the Earth that you take out of the Earth, and you can do it in the comfort of your own home.  Google for "torsion balance experiment" (by Cavendish, IIRC).

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If the Earth was indeed a flat disc, wouldn't the whole planet crunch up into itself and eventually transform into a ball?


If the Earth generated a gravitational field, yes, it would *eventually* happen, after a billion years maybe.  FE assumes that the Earth does not generate a gravitational field.  Also, I'm not sure what FE's stance on the age of the world is, but it's plausible that it's a younger estimation than the RE claim.

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How come you can see the Earth's natural curve from very high altitudes? Such as planes and the summits of various mountains?


Are you talking about the curve of the horizon?  How can you tell the difference between the curve caused by standing on a spherical ball, and the curve caused by standing on a circular disc?  To me, in both cases, the horizon should appear circular.  The circles would have different curvatures, certainly, but how are you sure you are seeing one and not the other?

The relevant curve for demonstrating the Earth to be ball-shaped is the curve away from you, not the curve around you.  The flat Earth has a curved edge, so of course it will appear curved.  However, it does not curve down and away, the way the top of a hill or an upside-down salad bowl do.

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How would a disc-shaped planet survive under the harsh environment of space?


How does the ball-shaped planet do it?

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Wouldn't it collapse or be unable to sustain an atmosphere?


Collapse?  See above.  Atmosphere?  There's a gravitational effect; it, along with the ice wall, holds some atmosphere in.

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What lies underneath a flat Earth? Is it the sun or the moon?


That's in the FAQ; in answer to your second question, no; they are above the plane in which the flat Earth lies.

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Why do planes and ships slip through a horizon instead of shrinking smaller and smaller?


No explanation is given, aside from gibberish that you can and should ignore.

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If the Earth was flat, we would be able to see the coastland of China from America by using a powerful telescope.


If it were flat and there were no atmosphere, that would be true.  However, the resolving power of a telescope is limited by scattering from the atmosphere.  Also, light attenuates faster in the atmosphere than in vacuum.

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Who knows? I might even become a Flat-Earther too someday!


[sarcasm]We can only hope...[/sarcasm]

-Erasmus
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

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joffenz

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Disproving The Flat Earth
« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2006, 02:42:37 AM »
*adds most of this to the FAQ*

Re: Disproving The Flat Earth
« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2006, 05:53:11 AM »
Thank you for your answers, Erasmus.

However, why would the government try to cover the information up? Wouldn't it make more sense to tell everyone the truth?

Also, Magellan's circumnavigation of the globe proved that the earth was round, for how else could his crew have returned to their home port?

For your third explanation, what is the source of this immense power required to push the whole Earth upwards? Where did the energy come from? Energy cannot be created out of no-where.

For the next answer, how can the Earth not have a magnetic field? What's going to protect us? Why do compasses point in different directions according to their positions?

If a flat Earth was curved and you could see the curve from the top of a large skyscraper, then wouldn't the curve be too defined? If the flat Earth theory was true then we shouldn't even be able to see curves from as high up as the CN tower.

A ball-shaped planet would survive in space very easily. However, a flat omelet-like "planet" would shatter from even a very slight meteorite blast. Many scientists believe that a giant asteroid hit the young Earth and killed off all the dinosaurs. How would a flat Earth been able to survive such a tremendous impact?

Without natural gravity not influenced by acceleration, a wall of ice would be unable to sustain a viable atmosphere for many millions of years. The atmosphere would eventually leak out and the Earth would be just a dead disc.

If the sun was so close to the Earth, don't you think everyone would have died by now? If the Sun was ultra-small then wouldn't the thing have already used up all its hydrogen and died?

For the horizon question, I heard that some FE's choose to believe that waves are hiding the ship's hull from view. I don't really get this becuase ships still slip under the horizon even under very calm conditions.

Anyway, thanks everyone for your replies.[/quote]

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Erasmus

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Re: Disproving The Flat Earth
« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2006, 11:09:29 AM »
Quote from: "Condraz23"
However, why would the government try to cover the information up? Wouldn't it make more sense to tell everyone the truth?


Do governments always do what makes sense?  Anyway, FE doesn't suggest what the motivation might be.

Quote
Also, Magellan's circumnavigation of the globe proved that the earth was round, for how else could his crew have returned to their home port?


Magellan's voyage did nothing of the sort.  It demonstrated that you can start in one place, travel for a while, and end up in the same place again.  I can do that in my living room.  On the flat Earth, if you "circumnavigate" the world, you're really just travelling in a circle around the center of the disc.

Anyway, Magellan didn't travel in anything resembling a straight line.

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For your third explanation, what is the source of this immense power required to push the whole Earth upwards? Where did the energy come from? Energy cannot be created out of no-where.


Meh?  Fusion?  Dark energy?  FE doesn't say.

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For the next answer, how can the Earth not have a magnetic field? What's going to protect us? Why do compasses point in different directions according to their positions?


This is discussed at length in another thread; do a search for "magnetic field".  I can't really sum it up succinctly; suffice it to say, here, that arguments for a plausible magnetic field on a flat Earth have been put forward.

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If a flat Earth was curved and you could see the curve from the top of a large skyscraper, then wouldn't the curve be too defined? If the flat Earth theory was true then we shouldn't even be able to see curves from as high up as the CN tower.


Are you referring to

Quote from: "I"
How can you tell the difference between the curve caused by standing on a spherical ball, and the curve caused by standing on a circular disc?


?  Which curve, exactly, are you talking about?  I claim that regardless of whether the Earth is a flat circular disc or a spherical ball, the horizon will appear curved from a sufficient height.  For differentiating between the two, the relevant kind of curve is that of a circle that passes beneath you feat, not of a circle at whose center you stand.  Do you claim that you can see this latter sort of curve from the top of a tall building?

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a flat omelet-like "planet" would shatter from even a very slight meteorite blast.


Do you know this to be the case?  What's your evidence?

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Without natural gravity not influenced by acceleration, a wall of ice would be unable to sustain a viable atmosphere for many millions of years. The atmosphere would eventually leak out and the Earth would be just a dead disc.


Leak out how?  Through the wall?  So you're saying that there are cracks in the wall.  But if there were, then water would leak out too.  Obviously it isn't, so there are no cracks, so the air can't leak out either.

In any case, the Earth's atmosphere was not always oxygenated.  There are processes that generate gasses and release them into the atmosphere, albeit slowly.  Certainly, though, in the millions of years it would take the atmosphere to leak out, these processes could replenish it and maintain a reasonably stable atmosphere.  That being said, it is observed that the exact concentration of different gasses changes periodically, so it may indeed be the case that air is leaking out.

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If the sun was so close to the Earth, don't you think everyone would have died by now? If the Sun was ultra-small then wouldn't the thing have already used up all its hydrogen and died?


Obviously, FE does not believe that either of these things are true.  Clearly the sun's radiative energy is not what astrophysicists would have you believe.  Quite likely it operates on different principles than are suggested in physics books, says FE.

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For the horizon question, I heard that some FE's choose to believe that waves are hiding the ship's hull from view. I don't really get this becuase ships still slip under the horizon even under very calm conditions.


Yep, the wave thing is dumb.  There's no explanation for the ship-horizon effect.

-Erasmus
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

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Erasmus

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Disproving The Flat Earth
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2006, 11:10:55 AM »
EnragedPenguin / cheesejoff: to the extent that the above questions and answers agree with FE canon, could you please include them in the FAQ?

-Erasmus
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

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6strings

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Disproving The Flat Earth
« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2006, 06:20:08 PM »
Heh, somehow I don't see this getting into the FAQ though...
Quote
Yep, the wave thing is dumb. There's no explanation for the ship-horizon effect.

Seriously...we need to come up with an explanation for this one...

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Cinlef

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Disproving The Flat Earth
« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2006, 06:41:35 PM »
Other than a spherical Earth you mean?
Seriously thought where is the explanation of that wave thing? Maybe we should post a link on the FAQ
A confused
Cinlef
Truth is great and will prevail-Thomas Jefferson

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6strings

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Disproving The Flat Earth
« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2006, 06:47:58 PM »
There isn't actually any explanation, or the one given is so flawed it can't be considered an explanation.  Something about ants stacking up, if I recall, reasoning by flawed analogy (just like you love so much, eh Cinlef?)

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EnragedPenguin

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Disproving The Flat Earth
« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2006, 06:15:31 AM »
Quote from: "Erasmus"
EnragedPenguin / cheesejoff: to the extent that the above questions and answers agree with FE canon, could you please include them in the FAQ?

-Erasmus


I added most of them, I just copied and pasted the answers from your posts, I hope you don't mind.
A different world cannot be built by indifferent people.

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Erasmus

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Disproving The Flat Earth
« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2006, 09:45:10 AM »
Quote from: "6strings"
There isn't actually any explanation, or the one given is so flawed it can't be considered an explanation.  Something about ants stacking up, if I recall, reasoning by flawed analogy (just like you love so much, eh Cinlef?)


The ant thing was a (potentially flawed, I admit, but nobody has suggested how) analogy to reason against the wave thing... just because a million ants cover the ground between you and me, doesn't mean they block my view of you any more than ten ants would.  Ditto for waves.

-Erasmus
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

Disproving The Flat Earth
« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2006, 04:15:56 PM »
Quote
How can you tell the difference between the curve caused by standing on a spherical ball, and the curve caused by standing on a circular disc? To me, in both cases, the horizon should appear circular.


Wouldn't you only see the flat earth curve if you were looking at the edge of the world though?  If you see the curve on dry land from say... Kansas or something, isn't it reasonable to conclude that you aren't seeing the edge of the disk?
ooyakasha!

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Erasmus

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Disproving The Flat Earth
« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2006, 05:14:21 PM »
Quote from: "Knight"
Wouldn't you only see the flat earth curve if you were looking at the edge of the world though?  If you see the curve on dry land from say... Kansas or something, isn't it reasonable to conclude that you aren't seeing the edge of the disk?


So you're saying, "Okay, Erasmus, but that curved horizon doesn't look like an ice wall to me."

That's a good point.  But FE already claims you can't see all the way to the ice wall, due to visibility limitations.  Assuming your visibility is equally limited in all directions, the visible horizon would still be a circle, whether it's the rim of the world or not.

-Erasmus
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

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Cinlef

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Disproving The Flat Earth
« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2006, 06:46:48 PM »
Hmm What about none human eye methods, telescope, radar giant laser (reflected by icewall?) there must be some way we could test it
An intrigued
Cinlef
Truth is great and will prevail-Thomas Jefferson

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Melior est sapientia quam vires-Wisdom

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Erasmus

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Disproving The Flat Earth
« Reply #14 on: March 26, 2006, 08:28:33 PM »
Quote from: "Cinlef"
Hmm What about none human eye methods, telescope, radar giant laser (reflected by icewall?) there must be some way we could test it
An intrigued
Cinlef


I can't in good faith argue against the use of a telescope, radar, or giant laser to extend the range of visibility.  Maybe one of the faithful FEers can suggest what would happen if we were to use these tools, so as to preserve the FE model?

The "problem" with these devices is that they can be calibrated locally, so that you know they are not distorting your view and creating false images.  I still want to use laserranging to measure the longitudinal curvature of the Earth... why won't that work? (question addressed to FEers).

-Erasmus
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

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Hege

Disproving The Flat Earth
« Reply #15 on: March 27, 2006, 06:00:11 AM »
kinda funny how you can proof that the earth is flat and disproof it here..

but your proof that earth would be flat is crossing it self from some spots.

firstly, if earth doesnt have a magnetic field, earth wouldnt have a atmosphere, as what has happened to mars... the Sun winds (or whatever yuo call them..) would blow away earths atmosphere leaving it to a big desert. and anyway the same winds would make earth if it was flat to spin around and a around like a frisbee...

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Erasmus

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Disproving The Flat Earth
« Reply #16 on: March 27, 2006, 09:21:05 AM »
Quote from: "Hege"
the Sun winds


Given that astrophysicists are lying -- or just plaing wrong -- about almost every other aspect of the Sun's nature (except perhaps its color), do you really expect us to believe that the sun produces wind as well?  Everybody knows there's no air in space, so there can't be any wind either.

-Erasmus
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

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Hege

Disproving The Flat Earth
« Reply #17 on: March 27, 2006, 11:44:06 AM »
Quote
Given that astrophysicists are lying -- or just plaing wrong -- about almost every other aspect of the Sun's nature (except perhaps its color), do you really expect us to believe that the sun produces wind as well? Everybody knows there's no air in space, so there can't be any wind either.
the "sun winds" AKA Solar winds are some sort radiation of what sun sends from its surface by the reacton what it does all the time... I'm not skilled enought in english to explain it...


here you go this might clear up a bit..

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We have known for 40 years that space weather affects the Earth, which is buffeted by a 'wind' from the Sun, but only now are we learning more about its precise origins. Solving the mystery of the solar wind has been a prime task for ESA's SOHO spacecraft. Its latest findings, announced on 20 May 2003, may overturn previous ideas about the origin of the 'fast' solar wind, which occurs in most of the space around the Sun.

Earlier results from SOHO established that the gas of the fast wind leak through magnetic barriers near the Sun's visible surface. Straight, spoke-like features called plumes have been seen rising from the solar atmosphere at the polar regions, where much of the fast wind comes from.. According to previous ideas, the gas of the fast wind streams out in the gaps between the plumes.

"Not so", says Alan Gabriel of the Institut d'Astrophysique Spatiale near Paris, France. Careful observations with SOHO now suggest that most of the fast wind leaves the Sun via the plumes themselves, which are denser than their surroundings. Gabriel and his team tracked gas rising at about 60 kilometres per second to a height of 250 000 kilometres above the Sun's visible surface.

"If this controversial result is right, it will clear up a big misunderstanding," says Bernhard Fleck, ESA's project scientist for SOHO. "We need to know how the fast wind is subsequently accelerated to 750 kilometres per second. To find out, we'd better be looking in the right places."

SOHO has also investigated the origin of a slower wind, half the speed of the fast wind, which comes from the Sun's equatorial regions. The gas of the 'slow' wind leaks from triangular features called 'helmets', which are plainly seen protruding into the Sun's atmosphere during a solar eclipse. Blasts of gas called 'coronal mass ejections' also contribute to the solar wind in the equatorial zone of the Sun.

The relative importance of the fast and slow winds was established by the ESA/NASA Ulysses spacecraft, which has twice passed over the poles of the Sun.

Its measurements show that the fast wind predominates in the heliosphere, which is a huge bubble blown into interstellar space by the Sun's outpourings, and extending far beyond the outermost planets.

In interplanetary space, the fast wind often collides with the slow wind. Like the mass ejections, the collisions create shock waves which agitate the Earth's space environment.

The four satellites of ESA's Cluster mission are now studying the interaction between the solar wind and our planet's defences. The Earth's magnetic field creates a bubble within the heliosphere, but it does not give us perfect protection from Sun's storms. Ulysses, SOHO and Cluster together provide an extraordinary overview of solar behaviour and its effects, both near and far in the solar system.

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6strings

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Disproving The Flat Earth
« Reply #18 on: March 27, 2006, 11:49:43 AM »
Given that FE theory states that man has never gone into space, any information gathered from doing so must be termed a part of the Round Earth Conspiracy, and as such is not permissible proof for RE theory.

Disproving The Flat Earth
« Reply #19 on: March 27, 2006, 12:00:46 PM »
Quote from: "Hege"
firstly, if earth doesnt have a magnetic field, earth wouldnt have a atmosphere, as what has happened to mars... the Sun winds (or whatever yuo call them..) would blow away earths atmosphere leaving it to a big desert. and anyway the same winds would make earth if it was flat to spin around and a around like a frisbee...

Uh, no.  First, Mars has an atmosphere, albeit a thin one.  The reason it can't hold an atmosphere as thick as Earth's is because Mars' gravity is weaker.
nd that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped.

Disproving The Flat Earth
« Reply #20 on: March 30, 2006, 02:53:40 PM »
Quote
However, why would the government try to cover the information up?


Obviously Americans need constant reminding...there is more than one government in the world.

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joffenz

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Disproving The Flat Earth
« Reply #21 on: March 31, 2006, 08:58:57 AM »
Quote from: "dgw2"
Quote
However, why would the government try to cover the information up?


Obviously Americans need constant reminding...there is more than one government in the world.


True, but how many governments have actually sent men into space or sent ships to the antarctic? I think countries such as landlocked African countries would not actually need to be in on the conspiracy, they would believe the Earth is flat because all the other governments appear to believe so.

Disproving The Flat Earth
« Reply #22 on: March 31, 2006, 12:27:13 PM »
Quote from: "cheesejoff"
Quote from: "dgw2"
Quote
However, why would the government try to cover the information up?


Obviously Americans need constant reminding...there is more than one government in the world.


True, but how many governments have actually sent men into space or sent ships to the antarctic? I think countries such as landlocked African countries would not actually need to be in on the conspiracy, they would believe the Earth is flat because all the other governments appear to believe so.

cheesejoof many of these contrys are the porrest contries in the world, they wouldnt care what shape the earth is.
-grim

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EnragedPenguin

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Disproving The Flat Earth
« Reply #23 on: March 31, 2006, 01:37:51 PM »
Quote from: "the grim squeaker"

cheesejoof many of these contrys are the porrest contries in the world, they wouldnt care what shape the earth is.
-grim


I think that's kind of what he meant.
A different world cannot be built by indifferent people.

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Cinlef

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Disproving The Flat Earth
« Reply #24 on: March 31, 2006, 05:51:39 PM »
Doesn't this bring us back to why the world most advanced countries perpatrate an elaborate ruse which benefits NO ONE including and this is important THENMSELVES?
This is what makes FE worse in some ways tahn the gov is in league with aliens lunatic conspiracy theories. THose have often even less evidence but they at least make sense in terms of human nature. Why would the govs sell out citizens to alinens; advanced tech, protection from other aliens etc. Why would every gov lie about the shape of the earth and create an costly elaborate spherical earth ruse?.....
An enraged
Cinlef
Truth is great and will prevail-Thomas Jefferson

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Cinlef is the bestest!

Melior est sapientia quam vires-Wisdom

Re: Disproving The Flat Earth
« Reply #25 on: April 03, 2006, 01:31:04 AM »
Quote from: "Condraz23"
Thank you for your answers, Erasmus.

However, why would the government try to cover the information up? Wouldn't it make more sense to tell everyone the truth?


Maybe they're recieving disgusting amounts of money from the devil for it?

or whatever you think. It's not difficult to come up with an explanation

instead of calling everything you can't understand impossible, call it magic. Or "the will of god". And suddenly, the whole world makes sense
he world isn't round.
The world isn't flat.
How stupid are you?
anyone should be able to see it's a cube

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fire_extinguisher

Disproving The Flat Earth
« Reply #26 on: April 15, 2006, 09:30:36 PM »
wtf? Have you ever seen boats coming in from the ocean? You can SEE the TOP OF THE SHIP FIRST. That would not be so if the earth was flat.

Have you ever riden in an airplane?

YOU CAN SEE THE CURVITURE OF THE EARTH UP THERE. :o

I really dont beleive that you guys believe what you are writing. Anybody smart enough to know how to read/write and operate a computer should understand that the earth is round.

I hope this is a joke.

Disproving The Flat Earth
« Reply #27 on: April 15, 2006, 09:34:54 PM »
It seems we have ensnared another one :)

I'm not too entwined on the FE theory for this.  It has to do with waves or something and its not very good at explaining it.

So yeah, that is a weak point of the theory.
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555Joshua

Disproving The Flat Earth
« Reply #28 on: April 17, 2006, 04:14:21 AM »
WTF??!!!
If the earth has an edge, where is it? How come those people in the Genis Book of world records never found it when they flew solo around the world? Several flew around it--all around it. And they can tell you it is round. Where is this ice you speek of? No one can show me a picture of it. At least I can show you a picture of the round eath. How come I can show you a fake when you can't show me a real?

Whenever a government conspires has a reason. Why would a government waist billions of dolars over this?

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Given that FE theory states that man has never gone into space, any information gathered from doing so must be termed a part of the Round Earth Conspiracy, and as such is not permissible proof for RE theory.

WTF??!!! How do you think you use your cell phones? The signals are relayed by SATILITES. How do you think you get SATILITE TV??!!! YOU CAN ACTUALLY SEE THE SATILITES ORBIT THE EARTH. That's another f*cking good question, HOW DOES THE MOON ORBIT A FLAT EARTH??!!!

Have you ever tried to prove the earth is flat? And yet, we have proven it's round.

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Uh, no. First, Mars has an atmosphere, albeit a thin one. The reason it can't hold an atmosphere as thick as Earth's is because Mars' gravity is weaker.

AH! So you admit the earth has gravity! :)

Quote
True, but how many governments have actually sent men into space or sent ships to the antarctic? I think countries such as landlocked African countries would not actually need to be in on the conspiracy, they would believe the Earth is flat because all the other governments appear to believe so.

Oh f*ck. You people contridict yourselves. First you say no one has gone into space, and then you say we have. :?:

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Maybe they're recieving disgusting amounts of money from the devil for it?

What The Fuck??!!! Surely if the U.S. Government were getting shitloads of money from the devil they wouldn't be $9,000,000,000 in debt. And what would Satan get out of this "Round Eath Conspiracy"?

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Given that FE theory states that man has never gone into space, any information gathered from doing so must be termed a part of the Round Earth Conspiracy

And yet, you are part of the Flat Earth Conspiracy. :(

I used to think that everyone has intelligence. I think so less and less now. :(

Disproving The Flat Earth
« Reply #29 on: April 17, 2006, 01:02:18 PM »
Quote
I used to think that everyone has intelligence. I think so less and less now.

Why?