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FE magnetic field

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Erasmus

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FE magnetic field
« Reply #30 on: April 02, 2006, 12:13:29 PM »
Quote from: "Paranoid_Android"
Houston.....we have a new contender for STUPIDEST FLAT EARTH THEORY EVER!!!
Are you guys smoking crack???   :?


Sorry, what's this in reference to?
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Sharky

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« Reply #31 on: April 02, 2006, 12:30:05 PM »
May I please ask what the flat earth's magnetic poles problem is ?
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Erasmus

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« Reply #32 on: April 02, 2006, 01:54:16 PM »
Quote from: "Sharky"
May I please ask what the flat earth's magnetic poles problem is ?


Well, several people were claiming -- and indeed, it was a little bit dubious -- that the FE could not have a magnetic field that the RE had, and that you'd be able to detect that with a compass.

The problem is that every magnetic field, or so went the argument, must have two poles, each of which has to be a point.  But on the FE, "south" always means, "towards the rim", and the rim is not a point.  So how could it be a magnetic pole?

Somebody, forget who, reported that some authority stated that no pole in a magnetic field can be a curve (the rim of the FE is a curve).  My hypothesis essentially suggests that the FE's magnetic field is really the sum of several magnetic fields, each created by a separate magnet, and each having a point pole.

-Erasmus
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Erasmus

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« Reply #33 on: May 26, 2006, 08:50:14 PM »
The bumpy road of this thread meets the newly paved asphalt of another.
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mattz1010

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« Reply #34 on: May 26, 2006, 11:11:02 PM »
Did you merge topics, or something?
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TheEngineer

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« Reply #35 on: June 01, 2006, 11:43:34 PM »
Well there are a few problems with this theory.  First, and most obvious, magnetic fields always go from N to S - you have them backwards...

Next, the north magnetic pole is actually at the south pole and the south magnetic pole is located at the north pole.  You have them backwards too...

Apparently no one realizes that a magnetic field is created by moving charges.  The earth's magnetic field is caused by the rotation of the earth's core.  As the electrons in the core spin, they create a magnetic field similar to that of a solenoid.  The field exits the 'south pole' and returns at the 'north pole', creating a uniform south-north field that surrounds the earth.

If the earth was flat, there would be no core to spin.  The molten iron, etc. would simply circulate in random eddies that varied everywhere over the earth.  This would create random magnetic fields that were in varied directions and had varied intensity.  

You could have all the 'bar magnets' you wanted (which are made of iron by the way), but they would melt in the intense heat of the magma (which is also mostly iron).

I think it is time to come up with a different theory...
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Erasmus

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« Reply #36 on: June 02, 2006, 09:28:45 AM »
Quote from: "TheEngineer"
Well there are a few problems with this theory.  First, and most obvious, magnetic fields always go from N to S - you have them backwards...

Next, the north magnetic pole is actually at the south pole and the south magnetic pole is located at the north pole.  You have them backwards too...


So what you're saying is, the model I suggest is isomorphic to the correct model?  Gotcha.  Thanks for nit-picking labels.  Please note that labels do not exist in nature.

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Apparently no one realizes that a magnetic field is created by moving charges.


So I've got some magnets on my refrigerator.  Are they magnetic because of moving charges?

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The earth's magnetic field is caused by the rotation of the earth's core.


Explaining the RE hypothesis doesn't prove it; it merely tells us what it is.

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You could have all the 'bar magnets' you wanted (which are made of iron by the way), but they would melt in the intense heat of the magma (which is also mostly iron).


Why doesn't the rest of the Earth melt because of this heat that you say would not exist if the Earth were flat?  My response is: since the Earth is flat, I guess it's not as hot as you suggest; and, even if there is all this heat, perhaps the magnetic material is in those parts of the Earth that are protected from melting.

-Erasmus
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TheEngineer

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« Reply #37 on: June 02, 2006, 04:15:13 PM »
ALL MAGNETIC FIELDS ARE CAUSED MY MOVING CHARGES.  Even the magnet on your refridgerator!!!  Charges are nothing more than electrons.  Guess what - that magnet has electrons in it!  Electrons have a spin assosiated with them, referred to as up spin and down spin.  Each electron creates a small magnetic field.  But an up spin will cancel out the field from a down spin.  Iron, which most magnets are made of, has two electrons whose fields are not canceled out.  It is a natural magnet.

And yes the lables are important.  What if I were to say that the car is 34?  Uh, 34 what, years old, made in 34, traveling at 34 miles an hour?  Public restrooms have very important lables on the doors.  If you are trying to develop a model for something, put the right lables on it, and get the directions of the fields correct - It's a physical property.
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Erasmus

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« Reply #38 on: June 02, 2006, 04:27:31 PM »
Quote from: "TheEngineer"
ALL MAGNETIC FIELDS ARE CAUSED MY MOVING CHARGES.  Even the magnet on your refridgerator!!!  Charges are nothing more than electrons.  Guess what - that magnet has electrons in it!  Electrons have a spin assosiated with them, referred to as up spin and down spin.  Each electron creates a small magnetic field.  But an up spin will cancel out the field from a down spin.  Iron, which most magnets are made of, has two electrons whose fields are not canceled out.  It is a natural magnet.


So what you're saying is, some objects without huge spinning molten cores nevertheless have magnetic fields.  Thanks; that's all I needed to know.

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And yes the lables are important.  What if I were to say that the car is 34?  Uh, 34 what, years old, made in 32, traveling at 34 miles an hour?  Public restrooms have very important lables on the doors.  If you are trying to develop a model for something, put the right lables on it, and get the directions of the fields correct - It's a physical property,


This is a naive viewpoint.  Labels are something that humans assign to nature -- they are not in nature.  If my mislabelling of my diagram irritates you, then perform the trivial isomorphism in your mind.  Or you can just assume that my symbol that looks remarkably like an "N" really means what you think of when you see the symbol "S", ditto for the arrows.  

If, after that, it still bothers you that the labels are wrong, I suppose I can change it and repost the diagram.  Would that satisfy you?  It certainly would not change the essential features of the model.  In other words, your objections concerning labels and direction of arrows are not interesting.

-Erasmus
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TheEngineer

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« Reply #39 on: June 02, 2006, 05:19:09 PM »
I'm saying that you should get it right if you are going to do it, that's all...
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gummybear

FE magnetic field
« Reply #40 on: June 03, 2006, 03:39:50 PM »
so how did these magnets get there? someone dug underground and planted them?

if they naturally occurred, how did they ALL have the same N-S orientation and how did they ALL resist natural repulsion forces? Not only will the North poles repel each other, but so will all the South poles.
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Erasmus

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« Reply #41 on: June 03, 2006, 05:54:50 PM »
Quote from: "gummybear"
so how did these magnets get there? someone dug underground and planted them?


There's plenty of naturally magnetic material in the Earth's crust.

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if they naturally occurred, how did they ALL have the same N-S orientation and how did they ALL resist natural repulsion forces? Not only will the North poles repel each other, but so will all the South poles.


They don't all have the same N-S orientation: they all have different ones, in fact.

Also, as far as mutual repulsion goes, the Earth's magnetic field is fairly weak.  Notice that the magnets on your refrigerator do not spontaneously align themselves along lines of longitude.  Compass needles must be made very light and mounted on low-friction axles to be affected by the Earth's magnetic field.

It's not intended that you literally interpret the magnetic material in the Earth's curst as eight (or whatever) massive bar magnets; it's just magnetic material mixed in with the rest that gives the overall effect.

-Erasmus
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Sas

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FE magnetic field
« Reply #42 on: June 04, 2006, 11:40:25 AM »
I am not an expect on magnetic fields, but we do use them to help reorientate the satellites that don't orbit the earth in non-existent gravity.

If we modelled the (round) earth as a bar magnet with two poles and a ball of soil around it, we could surmise what angle the magnetic filed lines would make with the surface.

If we modelled the (flat) earth the way you suggested, we would also be able to work out what angle the lines should make with the flat ground at different points... you would need to find out how THICK the earth is though.

When we decide that, we can do an experiment. We would have to use the theory associeted with magnetic fields... Biot-Savart law etc... so we'd have to agree to use them... Which I guess you wouldn't be...

But aside from that... it's a nice idea for an experiment... also I might add that from what comparitively little I know, I don't think any "thickness" dimension of the flat-slab earth would "simulate" a round earth's pattern.

This might not happen but it's an important comment. If nothing else it shows that anyone who ever designed a magnetic instrument for use within the magnetosphere was in on the conspiracy.
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Sas

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« Reply #43 on: June 04, 2006, 11:42:46 AM »
In the last post I wrote "expect" where I meant "expert",  filed where I mean "field",  and associeted, where I meant associated.

Soz for that.
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Erasmus

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« Reply #44 on: June 05, 2006, 10:05:47 AM »
Quote from: "Sas"
I am not an expect on magnetic fields, but we do use them to help reorientate the satellites that don't orbit the earth in non-existent gravity.


Or, claim the FEers, in fact you don't do this.

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If we modelled the (flat) earth the way you suggested, we would also be able to work out what angle the lines should make with the flat ground at different points... you would need to find out how THICK the earth is though.


Explain.

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When we decide that, we can do an experiment. We would have to use the theory associeted with magnetic fields... Biot-Savart law etc... so we'd have to agree to use them... Which I guess you wouldn't be...


No complaints here.

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But aside from that... it's a nice idea for an experiment...


Go for it.

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also I might add that from what comparitively little I know, I don't think any "thickness" dimension of the flat-slab earth would "simulate" a round earth's pattern.


Probably it's good science to forget that particular thought.

-Erasmus
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Sas

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« Reply #45 on: June 05, 2006, 03:57:47 PM »
Explanation:

If one devised a theory that the poles of a bar magnet were in the middle and at the edge of a flat earth, one could do a small-scale experiment.
with an actual little model to determine what angle the field-lines should make with the ground and different locations.

That is, in both models the lines won't be parallel with the ground but also point partly up and down. This is clearly the case, and could be used to determine how "flat" the earth was because the direction to the pole at any place is measurable.
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Sas

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« Reply #46 on: June 05, 2006, 03:59:41 PM »
What do you mean about good science?

It's a suggestion for a way to test your theory that's all. If the opportunity presents itself I'll try it, don't hold your smug breath though.
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Erasmus

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« Reply #47 on: June 05, 2006, 05:32:36 PM »
Quote from: "Sas"
Explanation:

If one devised a theory that the poles of a bar magnet were in the middle and at the edge of a flat earth, one could do a small-scale experiment.
with an actual little model to determine what angle the field-lines should make with the ground and different locations.


Yeah I was hoping for something more detailed than a repetition of your previous description of the experiment.  I get the general idea.
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Erasmus

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« Reply #48 on: June 05, 2006, 05:34:35 PM »
Quote from: "Sas"
What do you mean about good science?


I mean it's probably wise to try and forget a preconceived notion that a certain search will fail before you've begun it.  You wouldn't want this belief to affect your experiment.
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Sas

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« Reply #49 on: June 05, 2006, 07:13:24 PM »
Alright, fair enough, but on the other hand all experiments have a hypothesis to test. Maybe this is that.

Erm, yeah I'd love to explain more but it's fairly simple... details about which bit, how to measure it or what?
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Erasmus

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FE magnetic field
« Reply #50 on: June 06, 2006, 12:07:12 AM »
Quote from: "Sas"
Erm, yeah I'd love to explain more but it's fairly simple... details about which bit, how to measure it or what?


Well I'm willing to pretend you have an oracle that... draws magnetic field lines in the air, puts the info into computers perfectly, whatever.

Mostly, I imagine that the distribution of conductive material in the Earth's interior is required information for determining the magnetic field.  Conversely, given a magnetic field I'm sure there's a family of boundary conditions that produces that field.  Given the "bar magnet" model, don't you think FEers could just pick and choose from among this family to find a model that's consistent with a flat Earth?

Basically what I'm asking is, even once you've found the magnetic field, how do you use that information to demonstrate simultaneously that the Earth must be round and that the field must be generated in such-and-such a fashion?  I imagine you could get either assuming the other, but how both at the same time?

-Erasmus
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Jie

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« Reply #51 on: November 16, 2006, 02:53:10 PM »
Just found this existing thread, so no point starting a new one...
Here's something I recently came across:

http://www.matchrockets.com/ether/halbach.html

http://www.magnetricity.com/Articles/Halbach_Array.php?PHPSESSID=151d0bc88902c3c2b56c25a60e93ac4d

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halbach_array

 I wonder if some variations could fit with a FE magnetic field model...
...if nothing else, the fact that this effect was first observed in the seventies is a good indication that there's things we have yet to learn about magnetism.
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beast

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« Reply #52 on: November 16, 2006, 04:07:35 PM »
How do we know the Earth's magnetic field even exists the way the scientists say it does?  I certainly haven't been able to walk all around the world measuring the level of magnetism.
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phaseshifter

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« Reply #53 on: November 16, 2006, 05:39:42 PM »
Quote from: "beast"
How do we know the Earth's magnetic field even exists the way the scientists say it does?  I certainly haven't been able to walk all around the world measuring the level of magnetism.


Well, do you have a good reason to question it? How do we know atoms exists the way scientists say they do? If everything is so questionable, then everyone is wrong.

How do you know the ice wall exists?
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coddy

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« Reply #54 on: December 21, 2006, 06:03:27 AM »
Quote from: "Goethe"
If you had a compass with a pointer that could move freely in three dimentions and some knowledge of magnetic field lines you could easily see that this model is incorrect.

http://www.geology.ohio-state.edu/~vonfrese/gs100/lect25/xfig25_14.jpg

Sorry if I haven't fully justified myself but I am not good explaining these things and frankly can't be bothered.


Think about it, in that picture, if you converted it into FE, the lines would run from north to south, just like in the original modal in the first post in this topic.



I would also like to point out that in your picture:

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f287/PraiseOfFolly/fe-magnetism.png

The letters N and S are the wrong way round. The north pole attracts the north pole of a magnet. That is why it is often refered to as "magnetic north".
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TheEngineer

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« Reply #55 on: December 21, 2006, 06:22:45 AM »
You bumped a 6 month old topic just to say that?

Had you bothered to read the thread, you would see that I already informed him of this.
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coddy

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« Reply #56 on: December 21, 2006, 06:30:23 AM »
Evidently
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TheEngineer

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FE magnetic field
« Reply #57 on: December 21, 2006, 06:31:42 AM »
Good job not reading the thread.
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coddy

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« Reply #58 on: December 21, 2006, 06:38:18 AM »
I try.

Well, i didnt actually realise it was a really old thread, i got on it by way of the link provided in the FAQs...
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EagleFalconn

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« Reply #59 on: December 27, 2006, 09:36:00 AM »
I'd also like to point out that this theory also fails to account for the phenomena I point out here: http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=87278#87278

By this model, Earth's magnetic field strength would exhibit sinusoidal strength as you traveled around the equator of the flat earth (as you approached the center of a bar magnet the strength of the magnetic field would increase and then decrease until you reached a minimum at the maximum distance between two bars and then begin to increase again). This is true even by the "fluid" magnet model discussed earlier in the thread.
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