Christianity and Evolution

Yes, it would look a lot like a monkey. I am just hoping that that guy was joking, because if he wasn't, I am very scared.

but if we could see the common ancestor we share with the rest of the primate family, he would certainly look an awful lot like a monkey.

It's unclear what exactly the common ancestor would look like. All that exists are a few bone fragments of the Australopithecus afarensis. There is no direct evidence suggesting the color of its skin, the shape of its face, or the amount of body hair the creature had. Neither is there evidence of species' intelligence or its dynamics of communication.

The common ancestor could just as easily have had more physical traits in common with modern humans than physical traits common to modern monkeys.

No, as usual for a theist you did not read my post very well.

I was asking the opener of this thread as regards to: if evolution is true, then what is the point of believing in god?

The purpose of faith is not to explain how the universe keeps ticking,but why! That's why theres about 2 pages dedicated to him making the world and its basically, '

well God did this, this and this...anyway, onto the real reason I'm here...'

Quote from: Franc T., Planar on May 12, 2007, 10:42:29 AM

No, as usual for a theist you did not read my post very well.

I was asking the opener of this thread as regards to: if evolution is true, then what is the point of believing in god?

The purpose of faith is not to explain how the universe keeps ticking,but why! That's why theres about 2 pages dedicated to him making the world and its basically, '

well God did this, this and this...anyway, onto the real reason I'm here...'

How does saying "god did it" explain why? Unless you are so crazy as to pretend that you know the mind of your god, it doesn't.

How does saying "god did it" explain why? Unless you are so crazy as to pretend that you know the mind of your god, it doesn't.

hence the reason creation is 2 pages long in the Bible I've got here and there's another 1247 pages after that, to put that in perspective, if the Bible was as long as this post, creation wouldn't even be the [ at the start of [Quote ] seems silly to get hung up on such an insignificant portion really, doesn't it?

Plus, even if not the root cause, Religion does inspire people to great acts of goodness (yes I know evil too) such as Christian Aid who aim to put a stop to poverty regardless of religious faith

Quote

but if we could see the common ancestor we share with the rest of the primate family, he would certainly look an awful lot like a monkey.

It's unclear what exactly the common ancestor would look like. All that exists are a few bone fragments of the Australopithecus afarensis. There is no direct evidence suggesting the color of its skin, the shape of its face, or the amount of body hair the creature had. Neither is there evidence of species' intelligence or its dynamics of communication.

The common ancestor could just as easily have had more physical traits in common with modern humans than physical traits common to modern monkeys.

Of course- but, aside from scientific circles, we would still call it a monkey.

Chrissetti: Why do theists insist that we must know the 'why' of everything? How is 'why' an appropriate question there?

Are you saying you don't want to know the Meaning of life?

I'm saying do you even know what you're asking? Do you even know what you mean by the question, 'why'? Theists assume that 'why' is an appropriate question to apply to any phenomenon. I don't think it is. Not everything has some sort of purpose.

Why are we here?
Why was the universe created?
Why does god give a rat's ass?
why do bad things happen to good people?

Science can't (and will hopefully never try to) answer these questions. That's a more specific 'why'

But you're still applying a question where we have no reason to believe it is appropriate, except the last- and the last certainly is within the realm of science. Bad things happen to good people because one's moral quality has no effect on natural disasters, disease, accidents, etc. If you were asking 'why do bad things happen to good people' in the sense of 'what is the purpose of bad things happening to good people', you are again applying a question to a subject to which it has no relevance. It's a meaningless question.

Art is meaningless, yet you do not deny we need art. we need to ask those questions, its a part of being human

'Why' is fully appropriate when applied to art. Art is a human endeavor, and 'why' is fully applicable to the endeavors of intelligent beings. Where I have a problem is when you ask the purpose of purposeless physical phenomena. Unless God exists, the question is meaningless, inappropriate, and irrelevant. You have to assume God's existence for there to be any point in asking that question with regards to things like the origin of the universe or life.

Why are we here?

To make more of ourselves.

Why was the universe created?

It wasn't created; it happened.

Why does god give a rat's ass?

He doesn't.

why do bad things happen to good people?

"It is not the facts and events that upset man, but the view he takes of them."  -- Epictetus

Art is meaningless

No, bad art is meaningless.

No, as usual for a theist you did not read my post very well.

I was asking the opener of this thread as regards to: if evolution is true, then what is the point of believing in god?

Cuz according to the bible he did a lot more than just create us. That's just one chapter.

I love how people find sarcasm and think that it's real.

Quote from: Franc T., Planar on May 12, 2007, 10:42:29 AM

No, as usual for a theist you did not read my post very well.

I was asking the opener of this thread as regards to: if evolution is true, then what is the point of believing in god?

Cuz according to the bible he did a lot more than just create us. That's just one chapter.

Please, do instruct us on what else this sky-fairy did.

Are you saying you don't want to know the Meaning of life?

42. I know it's overquoted and overused, but it's a perfect satire of people who find necessity in the Meaning of Life. It's not within the appropriate questioning boundaries, because then we get to this Jeopardy-style mess where we need to find the QUESTION to the answer of life. Yes, I know Deep Thought was not asked what the meaning of life, it was asked "What is the answer to life, the universe, and everything," but it's got the same relevance. Douglas Adams is a genius.

Art is meaningless, yet you do not deny we need art. we need to ask those questions, its a part of being human

We don't "need" art. It's enjoyable, but not necessary for survival. Those questions are not necessary, either. As dysfunction said, there is no reason to assume that the questions are even appropriate to ask in lieu of religion.

I personally am of the assumption that we ARE NOT here for a reason at all. It's depressing, yes, but does that mean that I'm going to go and cry about it? No, I'm going to go and make the best of myself that I can so that I can make a legacy for myself and I can survive through memory.

~D-Draw

Quote from: Maus on May 13, 2007, 04:34:57 AM

My science teacher, who's also an evangalist, when questioned, said that whilst there was evolution, it was God who put the wheel in motion, so to speak. She also said that it's a wonderful thing that God should give us brains that allow us to work out the mechanics behind his wonderful creations.

Maybe she should use her "brains" to figure out what the first law of thermodynamics (conservation of energy) and the second law of thermodynamics (entropy always increases) say, since she's a fucking science teacher. And maybe she could use those "brains" to figure out how those two basic laws of science disprove her belief in a creator sky-pixie.

.....I think god's already let her be taught those laws.

At least she didn't preach as she erm...teached.


I like sky-pixies...but they're in a bad mood with me it would seem, as they refuse to let the sun shine in any area of where I live where I am. :-/

Quote from: Chrissetti on Today at 12:10:04 AM
Art is meaningless, yet you do not deny we need art. we need to ask those questions, its a part of being human


We don't "need" art. It's enjoyable, but not necessary for survival. Those questions are not necessary, either. As dysfunction said, there is no reason to assume that the questions are even appropriate to ask in lieu of religion.

The earliest cave-men told stories (through the medium of paintings and 'acting') all the awy through to modern blockbusters. To be without music, or pictures, or stories, is practically sensory deprivation, SAS troops, when stranded and alone are encouraged to sing camp-songs to keep spirits up and help survive. African slaves during the years of slavery would sing songs to help them to cope with their existance.

No we don't need art for survival, like we do food and water but to say we don't need it at all is utterly false, the same applies to religion. Confused? read on:

As well as inventing these great art forms, early civilisations had a need for the supernatural, somethnig beyond what we see, to add purpose to their lives. "But we are not primitive cave-men anymore, we don't need that" You say. Wrong. If anything, in a world which we know to be temporary more than ever before, people need something to hold onto as a 'purpose' a reason we're not just living pointless existances. Some fill this space with God, others with their own legacy.

Whether God exists or not is irrelevant in this context, if it carries people through the evils of life, gives them a confidence to face death, and an inner strength, how is this a bad thing?

Now you're being silly. You admitted that we don't need art. It's for entertainment. I love art. But do I need it? No. Would life really, really, really suck without it? Sure.

But now where did the comparison slip to religion?

As well as inventing these great art forms, early civilisations had a need for the supernatural, somethnig beyond what we see, to add purpose to their lives. "But we are not primitive cave-men anymore, we don't need that" You say. Wrong. If anything, in a world which we know to be temporary more than ever before, people need something to hold onto as a 'purpose' a reason we're not just living pointless existances. Some fill this space with God, others with their own legacy.

Whether God exists or not is irrelevant in this context, if it carries people through the evils of life, gives them a confidence to face death, and an inner strength, how is this a bad thing?

How is confidence to face death a progressive element? Individually perhaps, but you naively misjudge the world. Embracing "God" fails us in so many ways. Not only does it give reason for war (I'm not saying it CAUSES war, just gives 'reason' for it--it's a tool), but it restrains knowledge. I would rather a hundred die of suicide because they feel they "have no purpose" than thousands to die in pointless warfare and our knowledge be hindered by foolish people who choose to believe in fairy tales. Progress is necessary. Without progress, we will fall soon and easily. Progress of knowledge especially. Religion does nothing but hold progress of knowledge back to a threshold over which we should have hurled ourselves over hundreds of years ago. Religion is coming to the point where it ACTIVELY rejects scientific knowledge which we can validly prove, and is now at the point where it must be thrown out in lieu of actual knowledge.

If people feel they cannot live anymore because of lack of 'purpose' in their lives, then so be it--let them do what they wish, as it's their own feeble inhibitions which draw them back. At least we won't have innocents slaughtered under the command of a foggy thought process. As well, I have been able to adapt fine to the fact that my life is at the moment completely pointless. Am I suicidal? No. Do I want to kill myself because there is no point in living? Not at all.

~D-Draw

Whether God exists or not is irrelevant in this context, if it carries people through the evils of life, gives them a confidence to face death, and an inner strength, how is this a bad thing?

I'm sure many serial killers thought the same thing about their murders.

How can murder be a bad thing, if it gives some people inner strength and a confidence to face death?

I hope you see my point.

I do see your point, and it's a good one, but  everyone here is implying knowledge must be forced on people, even those who choose to reject it.

There was an old lady who used to come to our church (back when i was still  a christian in the conventional sense) who was suffering long-term cancer damage and was close to death, and eotionally unable to cope, in depression etc. some folks from the church went to her hospital  and prayed with her and  she felt able to go easily into death's embrace because of her new-found faith. Should I have gone into that hospital room and said "Yes, it's all very nice, but the sky-pixie is just a nice story, nothing more" and crushed what little hope she had left? This, I think is faith in it's purest form, no political/scientific entanglements, just giving peace and hope to those that need it

We're not the ones imposing faith on innocent children. You are.

All we want is for people to be free, as individuals, to come to their own will.

And this is what your belief system and all other belief systems fight against tooth and nail, because THEY CANNOT SURVIVE IF MEN ARE FREE. People who are free and happy have no need for religion, State, or nationalism. Only people who are oppressed flock to these beliefs as a substitute for freedom.

It's as simple as that.

<<<We're not the ones imposing faith on innocent children. You are.>>>

Please stop lumping me in with the fundie christians, I have a totally different faith! one about self-exploration and reaching your own conclusions to 'god'

So it's a tool for the oppressed? then it needs to stay, by saying 'stop believing in that, it's stupid' you're taking away something else from these oppressed peoples!

No, it is not a tool for the oppressed. It is a tool that keeps the oppressed content of their fate, instead of rebelling against their masters. This is a universal fact- kings and presidents, slavers, scammers all use religion to exploit others, and religion is always enthusiastically upheld by the slave classes.

If a grandma uses religion to make herself feel better before she dies, then good for her. But I'd rather sacrifice her happiness to save millions of destitute people, than the reverse.

Give man back his angst, so he may be free.

And if you do not want to brainwash children, then why do you support an order of things which does? Any support for religion is a support for child abuse. There's no way around it! YOU YOURSELF may not practice child abuse, but you give aid and comfort to those who do.

If I were you, I'd rather lose my superficial comfort in the name of what is right, which is the only real comfort anyone has. But then again, I don't know how honest you are.

NO. stop right there I will not be accused of supporting child abusers! I support the free choice to follow and worship whatever god/goddess you feel and the personal search for a higher power.

I do not/have not and will not stand by those who abuse religion to excuse abusing children, making war etc.

and no, for your information, the slave classes don't always sit up snug with their religion and let everyone walk over them. In China I believe (or russia, one of the two)there is a system to try and remove christianity and there is a massive underground motion to oppose this system and declare their right to religion

To discuss the original intention of the thread (sorry, I haven't read the whole thread, only most of the first page) and to answer some others; you don't have to believe in every word the Bible tells us, for one simple fact: Man wrote it. God did not write it. And Man has passed it down through the ages.
Corruption of Man and 'his' imperfection have skewed many parts, and have added other parts to suit 'his' need (not His).
You may retaliate with: "If God is perfect, why is his inspiration not?" A simple answer, he tests. If it's one thing you learn as a Christian it's: God loves to test Man... whether it be a test of Man's loyalty, his truthfulness, his compassion, etc...

Quote from: Franc T., Planar on May 15, 2007, 02:51:00 AM

If a grandma uses religion to make herself feel better before she dies, then good for her. But I'd rather sacrifice her happiness to save millions of destitute people, than the reverse.

Give me an instance where sacrificing an old lady's comfort would save millions of people.  Not rhetoric, please, a real instance.

Are you sure you read what he posted, correctly?

edit: ok... you must have re-read it. 

I removed it for other reasons.  Arguing would be pointless.